A friend has a bitch my breed on day 66 she has not eaten for quite a few days and lost some of her plug Wednesday. No signs of pushing but has been heavily panting for over 24hrs. Vets have been out to her and they just say give her more time. My girl was in first stage for 18hrs an I was going spare with the anxiety.  She is expecting a large litter and both her and the sire are big so big pups. I'm worried she's too big to push and vets are being too blase about it all. I think I'd give her till lunch??? What to do?

All depends how dilated she is?

I have had a girl in first stage for over 24hrs, she gave birth to 12 just fine. But i kept checking her to see how dilated she was and so i knew she wasn't quite ready. Once fully dilated she started pushing with an hour or so

How do you check? I have mentioned for the vet to check to see if she is, if so she could have oxy and we know there is deco a problem as she is ready to push but no pushing. I'm all up for getting hands on but not sure if she will be lol

you get the gloves on lol. 

Hows things now, any news?

Vet said no vet or anyone could ever do an internal on a dog as the cervix is too high! One pup dead one pup alive mum knakered after it all and now they are doing a section. Which they should have done yesterday. Owner is totalled and can wait for it to be over, quite angry with the vets who let it go to day 67 as am I. Hoping mummy and at least some babies make it as they want to keep several pups. Mum hasn't eaten for nearly 5 days and stopped pushing

so sorry for you hope all goes well from now on

good grief you must all be frantic and worried sick, fingers crossed for mum n pups x

What strange vet....vets do internals to check for dilation all the time and my vet showed and talked me through it, admitidley you do have to go 'in and up' and it takes practice, but you will get an idea of what is going on in there so not sure why the vet said that.

Anyway i hope mum comes through ok and i dont think i would have left her to day 67 either. let us know how things go

I am sorry to hear of the awful mishandling by the vet,  hope there is omeone senior your friend can talk to about this.

I had my bitch examined internally on day 64 and was told she had started to dilate but unlike humans there is no measurement to say they are fully dilated, she is only a small breed so is the breed you are talking about a large breed that the cervix would be too far away from the vulva for the vet to be able to feel with their fingers?

I hope that more pups and the dam survive.

She has been mithering the vet all week but her vet is away and its a locum. Just waiting for her to contact me to let me know how it went. In the end they said she must have got her dates wrong or maybe she ovulated later and caught a few days after which is fair enough but she said upto 7 days after but i thought it was more like 3/4 eggs living 24hours and sperm 5 days. She had 3 matings 48hours apart from one another. Vets have really let it drag on much further than it needed to be, i just hope its a happy ending. She hasnt bred since 2006 and after this im unsure whether she will again. Best laid plans go to waste! ETA shes been losing her olug and digging for most of the week, panting on and off and with her expecting a large litter i thought she could be too big to push. But the vets have kept saying shes fine give her time, first it was monday then wednesday and then they took her in the early hours and the vet wanted to scan to see if the pups were still ALIVE! Needless to say the scan provided no info and vet said no to a section at first and would rather give her oxy and let her try on her own after pushing and getting nowhere for several hours and tiring herself out even more, been pushing since 1am section after 8am!

The life span of sperm and eggs isn't known exactly, it is thought the eggs are not ready to accept the sperm for 48hrs after being released and doing 2 or 3 matings is suppose to cover any time lapses.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01102yg/Inside_the_Human_Body_Creation/

This programme explained human fertilization in great detail[dogs can't be much different], made me wonder how any eggs ever get fertilized when you saw all the obstacles placed between egg and sperm.

Was the bitch tested for ovulation or were the matings done on how she and the stud were reacting, some females are floosies and will "stand" ready or not and some studs will do the deed regardless both of which mess up the whelping dates.

Even a locum vet should be able to manage a bitch during pregnancy,whelping and beyond and the practice owner needs to know they messed up big style.

I hope you hear something soon

The bitch is critical and they have been told to prepare for the worst. they almost lost her on the table and saved 5 pups

So sad that the news isn't better, lets hope they are wrong re the dam.

so sad, fingers crossed for all concerned, xx

Oh My God i would NEVER go to that vet again
My bitch had been pushing for several hours Nothing came so went to vets he gave her a small dose of oxidosin  even though she hadnt had her first pup yet  half an hour later 1st pup out breach but fine and 3 more to follow even though 4th one was 2 hours later and no sisn went back to vets told him she had been scanned for 4 but as yet we only had 3
He umped and ahed about scanning not always right but i insisted on xray for my piece of mind Sure enough 1 pup still there which after another jab came 10 mins later in the car
We pay these vets enough money so you must insist if you have doubts
I hope all goes well for the bitch

So sorry the news isn;t better,

Without being patronising, i hope the lady who was thinking about breeding her staffie reads this thread and understands why we are all so passionate about getting it right.

Fingers crossed that the bitch pulls through. When are vets going to learn :(

If the worst happens my bitch with her own litter of 2 could look after some if not all, so they stand the best chance.

To Add to above i lost 3 pups still born mum got an infection and her pups were poorly in the first weeks Its not easy.

OMG!!!

That was always my worst fear - losing a bitch during whelping. I feel so very sorry for your friend. It isn't always easy for "novice" breeders to stand up to a figure of authority, ( her Vet ) in this instance.  They are very often intimidated by this "knowledgeable" person, and understandably, believe every word uttered. It is only with time and experience, that one learns when to stand ones ground in certain circumstances, and then, if you have been lucky enough to get the "right" Vet, there exists a mutual respect. I was always very fortunate in having wonderful Vets. They valued my input, and l certainly valued theirs.

I hope she makes a good and speedy recovery.

Dear God!!!
Really hope the bitch and pups pull through.....is there any news yet.

> It is only with time and experience, that one learns when to stand ones ground in certain circumstances,

A very important point to bear in mind.  A couple of years ago, I had a bitch getting nowhere, although she was dilated.  It was out of hours, and the vet on duty was one that I hadn't met before.  One oxytocin jab eventually produced a pup.  Ages later, she was given another jab.  Again, a long wait for another pup, and when I started opening the sac, he told me to wait.  I ignored him and carried on.  Then he said, oh it is all the way out of her then.  Yup.

Another hour, (I never go home, always insist on staying) and I said to the vet, there is another pup to come.  He gave her a good feel, and said no, that is her spleen.  I said no, it is a pup.  So he decided to show me I was wrong and invited me to go with him to the scanning room.

I pointed out the heartbeat to him and requested a C-section.  Another hour or two and I don't think that heart would have still been beating. I know he didn't like me, but I couldn't take his feelings into account, just because he thought I was being a knowall.  My bitch had to be my first priority.  I know, without question, that back in the 70's when I bred my first litter, I would have just let the vet make the decisions. 

This is pretty scary :(  Can you more experienced breeders give us less experienced folk some guidelines?  Ie - if X hasn't happened by Y time, then do Z!  That will help give us the confidence needed to stand up to vets if in this situation...

Following recent less than positive experience with a vet I would indeed be more forceful.It is not easy to question someones expertise.However 'knowing' your own animal might give you the edge when debating there care.

> Can you more experienced breeders give us less experienced folk some guidelines?

I have to be honest rabid, a lot of it is breed dependent.  Naturally, knowing your own bitches is a biggie, and I have no way of explaining that I can see it in their eyes if I'm looking at inertia.

Someone with your breed is going to be the person to ask.  I know, for sure, that after the water sac bursts, some breeders will happily wait an hour with no panic.  Experience of my own breed tells me that 40 minutes is my target.  And I am in the car and phoning the vet if a bitch hasn't produced a pup by then.

When contractions start, I know that a vet will happily tell you that you need to just keep an eye on her, and phone them in 4 hours if nothing has happened.  Again, that may well be the correct procedure in a larger breed.  I would have a seizure if you made me wait that long with my toy breed. 

About 18 months ago I had a maiden bitch go into labour.  I was really pleased that contractions were nice and strong, and thought that I was looking at a fast delivery.  When I had waited for an hour, I guessed something was drastically wrong.  Rushed to the motorway and the nearest veterinary hospital (always at night isn't it?  :-) )  and asked for an x-ray.

Even with such strong contractions, that bitch was never going to get them out.  I look back now and wonder what damage would have been done to the uterus.  There were two pups, jammed side by side, in the same uterine horn.  I had never seen anything like it before.  The heads and toes were at exactly the same point - you could easily have thought conjoined twins.

A C-section later, I had two identical black puppies.  White chests and blaze - called them my new Border Collies!  Talk about 2 peas in a pod, and they both weighed 2.75oz.  I kept the girl.  :-)

There are loads of CD'ers that will recount similar stories, and they each have experience of their own breed.  I know when people tell me that they fancy breeding Chi's and I tell them it isn't easy, they will say well I bred Labs for years (for example) and I can't believe they honestly think there is any comparison.  Your best bet is advice from a breeder that has whelped your breed.

Thanks Jean, can you just say what the danger is, in terms of the water sac bursting and how long you then wait?  Is it that the puppy will suffocate inside if it doesn't get out within a certain amount of time?  (I need to re-read some books I think - I did read all this but have now forgotten it again!).

Also, is it true that it is usually at night, or is that an urban myth?  If we polled everyone here and asked what % of their litters have been at night, would that be the majority?  Or is it that we only hear about the dramatic night-time dashes to the vet and not about the ordinary day-time deliveries?  I guess bitches might naturally want to whelp at night because it's quieter and feels safer (perhaps?). 

If we polled everyone here and asked what % of their litters have been at night, would that be the majority?

In my case, nearly all of them l would say, 95% ish.

Bonni is home today and with advice from the vet she is not to feed her babies so they are being hand reared (im not sure if i agree with this as babies need her milk) but she has made it thank god and is on the road to recovery.

Glad she is home

Could she milk off the colostrum for the pups or buy a substitute

Hope all goes well from now on

I go with jaycee on a high percentage of night time births.  And that is whether straightforward or section/oxytocin.  However, I wouldn't ever become complacent, as I've had 2 sections in "office hours."

By the way rabid - what's an "ordinary day-time delivery??"  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)

Seriously though, I probably wait a much shorter time after the waters break with mine, given the size.  A 3oz pup is going to drown more quickly than a  big brute of a puppy.  And long labours are generally better in a larger breed, as the tiny tots, even when they give their all, are quite frankly, far nearer exhaustion in a shorter period of time.

I do admit that I still re-read my breeding books when I've had a girl mated.  I naturally have TBOTB but my favourite of all time was published back in the 70's "Dog Breeding for Professionals" and it's still the best I have ever read.  I fully appreciate that some things will be old fashioned in there - indeed, just feeding a dog has improved 100 fold since then.  But malpresentations are no different.  However, I have known novices, thinking they know how to help because they heard someone mention delivering a badly presented pup, do more harm than good.  It's why a mentor is worth a million books.  And having someone experienced around during a birth is calming when they seem so self assured about it all. 

Have to laugh, when I first decided that I might breed, back in the old days, I used to get a local farmer to phone me when he had a sheep with problems.  He would phone me if a ewe needed help, so I could go and watch.  Makes me smile, that it helps with Chihuahuas!!!! 

While I would tell anyone to read everything they can, I have recently ordered books that have been recommended on here, and been terribly disappointed, and wondered why folk thought they were so great.  But, on reflection, if anyone found them a help, that's what counts.  I just found them not advanced enough for me.

I 100% say that hands on experience is the way to learn.  And, for sure, I know of CD'ers that have been prepared to accept 3am phone calls, jump out of bed and race to their mentors house.  It needs commitment, but those that have done it, found it invaluable.  There is nothing so satisfying as watching a bitch that you know you can't help, in the hands of an experienced person.  One of the first Chi litters that I watched being delivered was awesome.  The heads were just not engaging, and I know that I would have been useless.  I'm guessing that most vets would opt for a section.  But the person manipulating those pups was so, so patient.  It took an age, and I really thought that there was no chance of them being alive.  But 2 healthy pups were delivered without the need for surgery.  That sort of thing cannot be attempted by a novice breeder, who would undoubtedly do much damage.

Louise
I am so glad to hear that your friends girl is home.  By your previous post, I was holding my breath, in case they lost her during surgery.  I'm with you - she should never, ever have been left so long by the vet.  I feel that, unless Bonni is seriously ill, that pups suckling will encourage milk production, and she needs to bond with them.  Hand rearing is soul destroying.  :-(

I have fingers crossed that Bonni recovers quickly.

I agree with Jean about the pups having mums milk.
Is there a reason for her not to feed them herself, bad section stitches or high dose of antibiotics?
Really hope shes up and well before long though.

I too wonder why your vet advised on mum not feeding her pups ? - my bitch had  a ceasar 10 days ago and has fed her litter of 9 with no problems

Yvonne

All 3 of my litters have been daytime affairs so I'm obviously in the minority here!

Given the poor breeding management advice from this vet so far I would take this with a pinch of slat.

Unless the bitch is on antibiotics that are dangerous to the pups (I have had a bitch on heavy duty AB's for mastitis and she continued to feed them) or so critically ill then the pups should be put with her for feeding. 

Of course if she is groggy she may have to be watched even more carefully and may not realise they are her pups at first.

They may need supplementing a bit with this initial interference with feeding getting started.

I too would concur with letting the bitch feed pups once she feels up to it - the advice given so far by this vet has not proved to be the best!  Purdey had to have an emergency spaying 3 days after giving birth to 14(!!) pups, to remove a decomposing 15th pup - and was also on A/bs - after 4 days she was feeding half the remaining litter and after 7 was feeding all of them.

I have also suggested to Mark that this thread becomes a "featured" thread - just to illustrate how things can and do go wrong - and how a vet can get things so wrong!

Hope all goes well from now on.

They lost bonni in theatre 3 times. She has been introduced to her pups and has taken to them well. I'll keep pushing that she feeds them as they need her nourishment. I bet she is so frail and exhausted the poor girl. Puppies have good birth weights and are happy. The aftercare is with another vet, I hate to think of their vets bill and that they lost at least 6 puppies.

What a nightmare and what a relief!  Hope she continues to improve and puppies thrive.

Louise, we are all sending positive vibes.  Your friend must be distraught, not knowing if her girl was coming back home.

I agree that Bonni will be feeling extremely delicate.  All we can do is give 24/7 TLC which I am sure that Bonni will get.  How very sad to lose 6 puppies.  Give your friend hugs from us all.

>I have also suggested to Mark that this thread becomes a "featured" thread - just to illustrate how things can and do go wrong - and how a vet can get things so wrong!<br />

Would be good to show people that breeding just ain't as easy as it looks!

>Purdey had to have an emergency spaying 3 days after giving birth to 14(!!) pups, to remove a decomposing 15th pup

These sort of nightmares are not easy for the most experienced breeders.  In the hands of a novice, would Purdy have survived?  It is certainly food for thought.

Im not sure if its the same vets practice but last time bonnis owner bred 2006 with a different girl who has sadly passed now, she got an infection after the whelp. Was clearly off and not eating, vets said she has just has pups she will be off colour, she had to have emergency spay because the infection was so bad!

>Was clearly off and not eating, vets said she has just has pups she will be off colour, she had to have emergency spay because the infection was so bad!

How awful!  I would be worried sick

I know that we have a well known CD'er on here that recently had similar, I know I was exchanging PM's until the bitch was rushed back for surgery.  I don't like to name names, but I'm sure that someone will recognise this, as she was contacting several of us on advice for supplementing pups.  Does anyone know if the bitch has survived?  I'm worried since my last PM was not replied to.  She is going to be out of her mind if anything has happened, and has done everything by the book.  Bitch was rushed back because of infection.

Anyone?

Louise,
One of my girls had to have an emergency spay following a c section and lost so much blood she was grey.
The vet sent her home with me as soon as they dared as she was pining for her babies (even though all came through a section).
She was exhausted and was wobbling when she walked as she had lost so much blood. We had to feed her the highest protein food we could find - pro plan for small breed pups even though she is a medium breed every 2 hours, day and night. Vets did not mention taking the babies off mum at all.
TBH I thought I was going to loose her - she was panting soo much - I don't suppose she had enough red blood cells to absorb much oxygen. She had so much fight in her and fed & pooped all her 9 babies.
A couple of weeks later the vets couldn't believe how well she looked and were amazed all 9 pups pulled through.

I hope this story gives you and your friend some encouragment.

Hope things turn out ok xxx

What an awful situation to be in :(  This is awful.

I nearly lost my bitch after she had whelped due to a ruptured atery in one of her uterine horns and she also very quickly lost a hell of a lot of blood and ended up having an emergency spey. She was very weak and we had her on a high dose of vitamin K tablets.  She wanted to feed her pups but she was just so anaemic, tired and sore,  in the end we let her just her clean them and we hand reared them from then onwards as she wasnt producing much milk.

Fingers crossed everything is ok with this family now :(

I don't have any experience of breeding so can't answer anything there, but I hope the bitch pulls through and the remaining puppies grow healthy and strong. This thread should be shown to any first-time breeder so they know what they are potentially letting themselves in for.

Josh

She has sadly lost 2 puppies and vets have said its PFS, one appeared to have gas so was given an injection? then had severe bumruns went weak and died. Just had to offer my sympathies as im unsure what to do from now on

So sorry that the news isn't better.

How many pups are there now surviving? Has the vet given the remaining pups anything to help them survive?

Did the dam get to feed the pups at all or did they take the vets advice and keep them apart?

Sending healing vibes that things improve

If they didn't get any bitch colostrum their chances of survival are seriously reduced.

They did feed from her from day 4, vets are clueless and just scratching their heads. Shes very upset as the male she had earmarked from day one was one of the 2 that passed. 3 puppies remaining, she said the last 2 that died were the greedy ones that fed mostly from mum

colostrum is only available for the pups in the first day or two :(  Can they not get a referral to a vet who is a breeder?

How would they go about that? shes in liverpool

Ask her vets to refer her with someone with more expertise with breeding matters.  Having made such a hash of it they should be bending over back-wards. 

Isn't there a Veterinary school in Liverpool, surely they must know vets who are breeders, or reproduction specialists.

Guide dogs for the blind breed on a large scale and must have vets they can recommend in that field?

I certainly wouldn't be staying with this practise/vet.