I am asking because I have 'spotted' a litter of puppies that I would be very interested in.  I have seen them for 2 months but as I can't even start looking till the end of May, I thought they would be all gone by then.  Then on Saturday, an advert popped up for the same litter still having a couple of both sexes left at 11 weeks old now.  I really would like to go see them but I don't know.  The pup would be 14/15 weeks by the time he came to me.  Is this too old?  Have I miss vital socialisation?  Or is it OK that he stayed with his mum so long?  I know his breeding and it's very good and all the health checks are done with good results so I am not concerned about his breeding/temprement and I know the breeder would hand onto him for another couple of weeks but is this a good idea or should I wait till we come back and start looking at younger pups?
What would you do?
PS  Large breed needing loads of socialisation and obedience training.

A good breeder will already be socialising the pup well if still at the breeders, many of us including myself have kept pups, I had one for an extra 6 weeks whilst the owners were on a cruise, I just socialised as they would have done, and the pup already knew some commands and walked nicely on lead, and was toilet trained, nothing wrong with a pup staying on at the breeders, but it would depend on the breeder and what they have or haven't been doing with it.

If you are happy with the way they have socialised and been training the pup, then your very lucky they still have some they have done a lot of the hard work for you. :-) Bonus!

I always say my main breed need ten times more socialisation than any other breed. The oldest pup I've homed was 14 weeks. 14 weeks is my personal cut off point -if the pup isn't sold by them, it stays. (Except last time, my husband somehow changed it to 11 weeks because we couldn't possibly sell his favourite puppy then!) I know some breeders who will sell up to 6-7 months but I also know people (very experienced people) who have bought at that age (in this breed) and had big problems.

The pup I sold at 14 weeks I did the same with as with the one I was keeping; he went out for walks to various places, he went to training classes etc. New owner never had a problem. He then came back to me aged 18 months from no fault of his own (or his owner's) and has been with me ever since so I know he hasn't got any issues other than not liking cats.

Lats year I bought a 6 month old Cavalier puppy and he has been great from day one -no issues with anything whatsoever, what I call a holiday dog -he was so easy to train it was like being on holiday. :)

So much depends on breed and what the breeder does. A Papillon pup I'd never even consider selling before 14 weeks so there you have to start to socialise the entire litter.

We took on a new lab pup (Odin) at the age of 17 weeks at the beginning of September last year.  He had originally been booked - unseen - by an Italian gentleman who was already known to the breeder.  He was being run on by his breeder at the specific request of the Italian who would not be able to take him until the end of August last year.  However, when the new owner came to meet his pup - he didn't like him and refused him ...because he has a curly strip down his back!!

We were already on this breeder's list for a puppy this summer, but when we lost Loki, poor Freya was distraught, and so we asked to be put on a list for any gun-dog training "rejects" that they might have - and within a week, we heard about Odin.

He had been well-socialised by the breeder, and was so good-mannered that he could almost have taught our lot some!   As he had been kennelled for part of the time, the only thing that needed sharpening up was his toilet training .... it took two days!

So it does depend upon the breeder, the breed - and of course the temperament of the puppy.

Hmm...

From the perspective of a trainer, I really wouldn't risk it.  I'm sure the breeder is an excellent breeder and is doing all s/he can to socialise the pup, but it simply is highly unlikely, if there are several pups left, that each pup there will be getting the one-on-one time and attention they need to be socialised as well as they can be.  Even if the breeder did nothing else, took care of no other adult dogs, and didn't work or have a family to care for, s/he would have her day full meeting several pups' socialisation needs and providing them with enough human-dog time away from their litter mates that they bonded to people and not mainly to other dogs.  It's not impossible, but it is extremely unlikely they have been getting this. 

Genetics also play a part in it - for example, labradors and golden retrievers have been shown to cope with under-socialisation better than, say GSDs and collies.  So, it might be a safer bet with a labrador, than with, say a GSD.

My breed is medium sized needing lots of socialisation and careful training to keep them from getting bored, loud, unhappy and destructive. Out of my three, the first came to us at 11 weeks (because I had already planned to return to see family in the US and the breeder was happy to keep him on for me--she did a fantastic job). The second was 10 months old--again, very well trained and socialised and fit right in with the first dog in spite of the small age gap of 5 months. The youngest was completely unexpected and came to me at 14 weeks. The breeder was someone whose dogs I have always admired, it was a repeat mating and the dogs on both sides were as good as they get. All of them get on really well together (all entire dogs). IMO if you see a litter that is really special don't let the pup's age put you off.

You see, my agruement for this being OK is that we are also considering rescues of the same breed where you get no history and socialisation might have been nil.
But my arguement being against is if I got a puppy at 8 weeks, we would be hitting the puppy parties, park, supermarket, outside the school, etc to lessen the chances of any 'issues'(hopefully).
I suppose I have just ruled out rescues too?
Might wait till we are back our holiday and phone then? What's for you doesn't pass you!

I have kept pups until they are 13/14 weeks old in the past, usually when the owner had other dogs and/or were going on holiday at the time the pup would normally be going. None of these pups have issues as I did everything I would normally have done if I was keeping them myself. One of them is now seen in the show ring, the obedience ring, and is regularly out working in the field.

So long as the breeder is socialising properly I would go and have a look.

As long as they are socialising it you shouldn't have a problem. The litter I have my eye on will be 10 weeks old (usual selling age in my breed) a week before we go on holiday for a week, so I've already spoken to them about keeping mine until 12 weeks old.

Thanks everyone.
Lucydogs, I wouldn't have any thoughts about taking an older gundog whatsoever.  This breed, however, is a large guarding breed which I would want to majorly socialise asap which is where I am getting my second thoughts from.
I'm too scared to go and look as I know I will want one!!  They are a fabulous litter.  And I have seen photos of the pups and they look just what I am looking for and are still snuggling up with mum!!  No way, too dangerous to visit without first making up my mind!!

It really does depend on the breeder you are getting the pup from, there are a couple of breeders on here that I would be happy to take a pup of any age as far as the training and socialisation is concerned but there are other who I would not trust to start the education of my puppy either soon enough or with the correct care.

It's definitely breed specific, and obviously also dependent on the temperament of parents/lines. I've had a couple of older borzois. One at  year old that had only left his breeders property twice for shows (he didn't even have a pet name) and one at 2 years old that again had only left his breeders property for a couple of shows, both dogs were kennelled too and came from breeders with a lot of dogs to share attention between. Both dogs had wonderful temperaments and took everything they met in their stride, both very well balanced and calm hounds.

In contrast I had a 6 month old collie pup that had never been socialised and she lived her entire life in fear, worrying about new noises and sights.

Ditto Lindylou etc.

My breed could really be homed at any age, but then you treat them as you would your won pups.

At the moment until Sunday I have three pups (including my own) here, they are 11 weeks old tomorrow.

One wasn't homed until after she had her first vaccinations so has had to stay until second ones done today, and the family want to pick up on Sunday.   I won't home part vaccianted pups, it's nothing or all.

The other I was hanging out for a show home as having lost a £1000 on achieving and rearing the litter (travelling to USA etc) I wanted her to go to a home where she would be shown and/or bred from, as the purpose of the litter was to widen/enrich our gene pool, and with only bitches in the litter, I wanted more than one to contribute.

Under 12 weeks I wouldn't be doing more socialisation than the normal home stuff, some car rides and traffic watching, some lead training, so not an issue.  House-training and manners learnt from free socialisation with the multi-generational elders continues as with one.

After that then it's actual walks (but 5 - 15 minutes each is not a big deal to do with  couple or three pups a day

As I tend to keep my dogs, I can only refer to the running on of pups for others......

I would keep a Cavalier pup for someone up until around 16 weeks . It is treated the same as the one Im keeping and is one of the family til then.
No problems ever but then their parents are of excellent temperament ( THE most important factor).

In Boxers I wouldnt keep one beyong 10 weeks as they really need to 'get going'. Big world out there and Boxers need to get in it :-)

I bought a pup (of my breed) at 12 weeks of age. She hadn't had any vaccs done and so her socialization was obviously delayed. She was the most balanced, even tempered dog that you could imagine. I had absolutely no issues with her and she was a credit to the breed for her outstanding knowledge of how to socialise any unbalanced dog at our training classes. I do think to some degree it is breed specific but I can only go on my experience with her. BTW she was one of three pups still not sold.

I have no experience of pups from a reputable breeder who has socialised their puppies but do have experience of rescue pups although all our previous dogs have been older rescues.

Our GR went into rescue at just 9 weeks old and we had him when he was just over 10 weeks. His socialisation obviously began quite late but he is absolutely brilliant and has no social hangups at all apart from an unfortunate incident when he was 8 months old that has left him very wary of fireworks - but not loud bangs such as bird scarers etc.

Our second dog was also a rescue who came to us at about 5 months old and he is a terrier cross who had spent the first months up until he went into rescue shut in a kitchen cupboard. He is a very stressed out little dog who has a lot of social issues although he is far better than he used to be but it has taken a lot of patience and heartache to get him this far - he's 4 years old now and will probably never be a totally relaxed completely sociable dog.

It may well be a breed thing - GR's on the whole are usually very biddable and friendly whereas terriers are far more fiesty but we have seen both sides of the coin with these two dogs both of which lacked that vital socialisation in their early days.

I personally would not take on a rescue again from an unknown background if it was still a puppy as trying to train out someone else's mistakes, lack of commitment and poor ownership is incredibly hard work and not for the faint hearted. If I were offered an older puppy from a responsible breeder whom I trusted and knew that they had socialised the puppy I would have no qualms at all about buying from them.

For me it would all depend on where and from whom the puppy was coming from.

>This breed, however, is a large guarding breed which I would want to majorly socialise asap which is where I am getting my second thoughts from.

Ooh, I am intrigued.  Is this the breed I think it is?

>my agruement for this being OK is that we are also considering rescues of the same breed where you get no history and socialisation might have been nil.But my >arguement being against is if I got a puppy at 8 weeks, we would be hitting the puppy parties, park, supermarket, outside the school, etc to lessen the chances of any >'issues'(hopefully).

Cracar, the difference between the 2 is that, with a rescue adult, what you see is what you get - the adult may not be 100% socialised, but you'll see this quickly (or the rescue or foster home should spot it) - there are unlikely to be any surprises.  With a 14 wk pup, you don't know what is going to crop up when you hit adolescence, as it's quite common for what has been missed during the socialisation periods to go underground and not to be evident until adolescence, when the hormones give the dog increased confidence to express the fear it feels in response to certain triggers. 

It's for sure useful to know what some breeders on here consider adequate socialisation - it certainly would make me think twice about a pup over the age of 8 wks from any breeder! 

Here is a list of what a pup should have experienced by the age of 12 wks: 

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/dogsocialization.pdf

I have bomb proof dogs and puppies to all normal situations they are likely to encounter in their lives, they haven't had too much to do with livestock, so I wouldn't trust them with livestock, simply as we don't meet them often, and of course farmers have a right to be protective, but they can certainly ignore them after a bit of initial excitement, been there done that after a couple of occasions.

A pup does not have to have encountered every conceivable thing to be able to cope with things it meets, that is simply impossible, dealing with all the usual hustle and bustle is quite enough to equip a stable temperament to cope with life., they are not that inflexible

For example I have taken my dogs on trains even when they haven't met with trains or railway stations until many months of age or even years, and they dealt with it with equanimity, because they basically have inherited sound temperaments, and have been used to all manner of other stimulus as noisy or as crowded etc.

As often stated I have also owned in partnership a pup who came into Quarantine at 9 weeks, who had only home socialisation with breeder and litter up to that point.

Beyond that there were just visits from myself and others, and the Radio, and the sound of traffic along a country lane from behind a hedge.  Based on the assumption that there is a  cut off point for socialisation, and that dogs must experience x or y by a certain age this dog and others like it should be basket cases, or at best unable to cope with a wide range of things

Yet this dog was perfectly able to deal with his first show 3 days after coming out fo Quarantine at a very busy open show, coped with benching, noise, had good canine manners and showed as well as any pup that had been to ring-training classes (I had practised with him in his quarantine run).  The only issue he had was he didn't enjoy travelling, but put up with it and travelled extensively in the UK, Ireland and Europe.

The sire of my first home-bred bitch was exactly the same (though he was a good traveller) the most adaptable easy going sensible people orientated dog, only difference was he was quarantined with a litter-mate.

I think this from the link is what I was trying to say
: "It is important to understand that there is a large genetic component in socialisation training. Breed
rescue volunteers have seen dogs chained in backyards that had no socialisation that display gorgeous
social behaviours toward all dogs and people. But you see many hardworking trainers that spent many
months socialising their pup only to have the dog grow up to repeatedly bite humans. If you are not
sure about your dog's temperament have an evaluation done by experienced shelter worker or clicker
trainer. Always error on the side of caution, if your dog shows fear responses, know that s/he is much
more likely to bite. Fear is the basis of almost all dog bites.
Ray and Lorna Coppinger in the book "Dogs - A Startling New Understanding"

As for some of the experiences are example and not a must.  I have never taken my dogs on a boat, can't really fusee and opportunity or need, but sure they could deal with it if needed, and had no trouble with my dogs on a ferry or plane for the first time as adults.

Mibne happily adapt to staying away from home with or without me.  Fro many years I shared lifts to shows with kind fellow exhibitors and ahd to ensure my dogs were good travelelers, with no car to practice in I used the Bus, yet they were great in peoplss cars.

Was my socialisation lacking because they had never been in a vehicle before 13 weeks?

Exactly Brainless, it is SO breed specific/genetic. I do a hundred times more with my Malinois than I ever did with any of the Goldens I had over so many years (well I still have one), yet the Malinois always end up with some hang ups, at least until they are 2 or so. When I got my first I only travelled by bus, she was a very seasoned bus traveller from 9 weeks of age as we went to training classes every week without fail and had to take two buses in each direction to get there and back. Then when she was 11 months old I met my current husband and he had a CAR. We decided to enter her for a show as it was now easy to get to shows. So set off for Birmingham National, and it rained. The wipers in the car were switched on and my bitch freaked out, actually ducked every time they wipers went past. So she was used to travelling, but had never seen that before!  But she got used to it easily enough after a few times, but it just goes to show. When my Goldens and Cavaliers started travelling in cars they never batted an eyelid at the wipers.

Well, certainly I get a lot of puppies at class with car anxiety and car sickness - sometimes to the point that new owners don't want to bring them to class - which even further limits their socialisation.  This is not always socialisation-related, but sometimes it is.  So, yes, it would make it easier if breeders could whizz pups around the block in the car once a day.  I'm not sure that is necessary if they go to new homes at 7/8 wks, however, since that is young enough to adapt - but if a pup is going to a new home at 14 wks, then yes I'd for sure hope it had experienced a car.

>Based on the assumption that there is a  cut off point for socialisation, and that dogs must experience x or y by a certain age this dog and others like it should be >basket cases, or at best unable to cope with a wide range of things

No, like you say, it is a combination of genetic predisposition and socialisation.  However we can't do anything about genes, once the pups are here - and we can affect and influence socialisation.  Dogs come pre-programmed with varying degrees of suspicion/wariness/fear towards new things and this varies by breed, which means that an undersocialised GSD is going to be more spooky and have more potential for fear aggression than an undersocialised labrador.  It may be that you're lucky enough to have a breed which manages quite well with under-socialisation.  This does not, however, negate the case for socialisation.  In cracar's case it sounds like we're talking about a large breed which it is important to socialise well...

The point of that article is that socialisation needs to be active - it is not enough for a puppy just to 'happen' to experience what is going on in a family at a particular time and the places where the family happens to need to go.  It needs people to sit down and thing 'what has the puppy not experienced yet?' and target at least one new thing a day.  Sure, there will ALWAYS be things which a pup doesn't get exposed to, because it's not possible to expose a pup to everything, as you said, but the point is to minimise what those things are and maximise the things the pup has met.

I've just taken on a pup that was 17 weeks when she came to live with me. She's settled in very well, we've had a few issue ,mainly with walking on concrete lol, but I got her from a breeder I trust and that made all the difference. I agree that the breed of pup is important in this situation.

> However we can't do anything about genes,

but that is exactly what we as breeders are supposed to do, breed dogs that are fit to live in our human environment, reared and brought up by a conscientious breeder in such an environment the changeover should cause minimal problems.

That is what a breeder is, others need not apply, so it properly or not at all,  and should not breed, (but there is no need to go to silly lengths) and people should not buy puppies from them.

The OP was talking about a litter they had seen, not a rescue.

>In cracar's case it sounds like we're talking about a large breed which it is important to socialise well...

But the assumption seems to be that breeders of older pups will be derelict in their duty to socialise a puppy of their breed, at a given age.

I have twice exported puppies at 13 - 14 weeks to Australia, they received proper socialisation, had to do a months quarantine from then, and bounced out of there ready to take on the world, ditto an 11 week old pup going to Japan.

No older pup that I have ever homed has had any issues as a result as they received the appropriate experiences while I had them, just like any pup of my own would/does.  That is my role as a breeder.

Totally agree Brainless, but that argument taken to its conclusion leads us to think 'Well, no point doing any socialisation at all then, let's just leave it all up to genetics and breeders'. 

It's about both - good genetics and breeding, combined with good socialisation - together resulting in a happy and healthy dog. 

When the pup is going to be 14/15 wks at time of collection and is still with the breeder and siblings, I would still be doubting whether one part of that (socialisation) is being adequately met... especially if the breed is one which requires extra socialisation.  It sounds like your breed is one of the breeds which can get by with less than ideal socialisation, but that doesn't sound the case for the OP's breed and doesn't bear generalising to all breeds.

> taken to its conclusion leads us to think 'Well, no point doing any socialisation at all then, let's just leave it all up to genetics and breeders'. 
>
>

Again there seems to be an assumption the breeder will not socialise.  A half way good breeder will, and the others should not be given the time of day.

the only disadvantage I can see to an older puppy is for someone who wants to do high level training of some sort and want to get in on the ground floor.  But even that I can't see as Guide Dog pups are puppy walked and don't get specialist training until later. 

What the puppy walker does is only what a decent breeder should be doing.

A guide dog puppy walker is doing a HUGE amount of socialisation, from the age of 6 wks, and with the most easily sociable breeds.

The two are not compatible - a guide dog puppy walker's provision for their only 6 wk old puppy, with what a breeder who owns multiple adult dogs and other pups is able to provide for a 14 wk old pup!

I think you will have to find out exactly how much socialisation the breeder has done and whether the way she or he has done it, concurs with modern views on how it should be done . Gwen Bailey gives a thorough overview of what every breeder should be doing:

http://www.dogbehaviour.com/articles/dogs/socialisinglitter.htm

"If you help raise puppies from birth until they are ready to go to new homes, you will have a tremendous impact on their character and behaviour as adults, and, hence, on their future lives. .."

It's really important that socialising is done so that the pups are not overwhelmed, which can lead to anxiety!

and then for owners:

http://www.dogbehaviour.com/articles/dogs/puppysocialisation.htm

One of my best dogs ever came to me at about 16 weeks, a BSD. She was not very well socialised, but her genetically she was very sound as her lines (US sire) were known for their good temperamant. Thankfully this tipped the balance I think, luckily for me. It could have turned out very different.

Good luck with your decision!

Lindsay
x

A guide dog puppy live in an ordinary home where it has to fit in with other things just as the pups and dogs a breeder keeps.

Are you suggesting that breeders should home puppies Willy nilly because they must go before a certain age, or as all responsible breeders do you keep the pups giving appropriate socialisation and then training according to it's needs and home them when suitable homes emerge.

This does not always happen to the timescale we would wish. It involves the breeder in lots more work and cost, but ti is our responsibility to our puppies.

If there really was a real issues with a breeder socialising a puppy rather than the new owner (often the breeder will be far more aware then many new owners,a dn the pup may actually benefit more from the breeders than the owners efforts) then all good breeders should give up for fear of not having pups homed by a certain critical age.

As has been said, I have a breed with a very robust/resilient  temperament, generally not over large litters (6 being average, though up to teens has been known), so it is very unlikely you will have too many pups to handle by the time their socialisation needs increase to a level that would make it a full time job.

Any pup that has left me (up to 16 weeks) has breezed into it's new life with ease, in fact better than some of the ones that went younger with less experienced owners.

As has been mentioned above, there is also a danger with overwhelming a puppy with inappropriate socialisation, a breeder knowing their dogs and pups should be better able to gauge the pace than many a new puppy owner.

The two are not compatible - a guide dog puppy walker's provision for their only 6 wk old puppy, with what a breeder who owns multiple adult dogs and other pups is able to provide for a 14 wk old pup!

HOWEVER a police dog puppy walker most definitely IS compatible -and there you DO have breeds that need far, far more socialisation than guide dog breeds. Police dogs don't go to their puppy walkers at 6 weeks. They don't always go to people who have no other dogs or puppies. I have one very good friend who puppy walks for the police and she has several adult dogs and sometimes even puppy walks two pups at the same time.

The point of any puppy walker though - whether police dog walker or guide dog puppy walker - is that their number 1 main priority is socialisation.  This is the message which they are given through any talks, classes, or preparation they take part in. 

We can continue to debate the point, but I still doubt whether a breeder who is also simultaneously caring for several other adult dogs (not just one) and several other puppies (siblings) and who usually also has a family, partner, house, life of his/her own, will be able to provide adequate socialisation for a pup past 7/8 wks *unless* they are the exception, put everything else on the back-burner and dedicate themselves full-time to being a puppy mum for that period and until the pups go to their new homes.  As I said above here, somewhere, it is not *impossible*, but it is highly unlikely.

>Are you suggesting that breeders should home puppies Willy nilly because they must go before a certain age,

No, but I would hope that breeders are not breeding unless they have a waiting list at least equivalent to the max number of pups their breed might produce.  People might come off that waiting list, but it provides some amount of assurance that pups will have homes at 7/8 wks.  From what I have seen, once a mating has taken place and then once pups are on the ground, enquiries increase from what they were before the mating had happened, so beginning with a reasonable list, you can hope that things will only get better.  Personally, whilst I would never home pups 'willy nilly', I would be, yes, desperate to find homes come 7/8 wks and would drastically extend my advertising and my asking-around and reduce my asking-price, should I have any pups left come that time.  For me, I would have to question whether there was enough demand for my breed for me to be breeding, were I to be left with several pups post 7/8 wks. 

>or as all responsible breeders do you keep the pups >giving appropriate socialisation and then training according to it's needs and home them when suitable homes >emerge.

Yes, but we are debating just what 'appropriate' socialisation is, here. 

We can debate till the cows come home, because it is not something which can be verified, either way:  In my opinion, it is highly unlikely that a 14 wk old pup at a breeder's, with several other adults and pups left, and of a breed in need of intense socialisation, is going to be receiving enough socialisation for their needs in that environment.  Sure, I could be wrong.  But I wouldn't want to take the risk, nor advise anyone else to.  If I received an email enquiry from someone, asking my advice on the issue because they wanted to come to class, that would be my response.

No, but I would hope that breeders are not breeding unless they have a waiting list at least equivalent to the max number of pups their breed might produce.  People might come off that waiting list, but it provides some amount of assurance that pups will have homes at 7/8 wks.  From what I have seen, once a mating has taken place and then once pups are on the ground, enquiries increase from what they were before the mating had happened, so beginning with a reasonable list, you can hope that things will only get better.

LOL I wish it always worked like that!! For my last litter I had TWELVE people waiting. (And that was in the year I won BOB at Crufts, so extra free publicity so to speak.) All but one pulled out, and I had nine pups. I did what I have never done before; advertised in every possible place you could advertise in, paid and unpaid, good and bad. I got ONE pup sold via adverts, one. The rest I had to go and find homes for myself, by asking previous puppy buyers, friends, the police etc. Oh and of course I had to keep two pups as opposed to one, as did the stud owner.

I had five pups left over Christmas, they were around 12 weeks old then, and despite family visiting, it being Christmas etc, believe you me those pups all got out and about and were socialised.

> but I still doubt whether a breeder who is also simultaneously caring for several other adult dogs (not just one) and several other puppies (siblings) and who usually also has a family, partner, house, life of his/her own, will be able to provide adequate socialisation for a pup past 7/8 wks *unless* they are the exception, put everything else on the back-burner and dedicate themselves full-time to being a puppy mum for that period and until the pups go to their new homes.

I'm curiuos as to why is would be any more difficult for a breeder, with a family & other animals, to socilaise a puppy, than a new owner who has a family life & other animals?

I'd much rather have a 15 week old puppy from a responsible breeder that breeds for health & temperment & puts in socialisation than a 7 week old puppy from just any old breeder.

Rabid, you have never bred a litter, socialised a litter or had to find homes for a litter.

You ask for the collective knowledge from forum members which has been gleened by years of experience yet you still presume to tell those breeders that you know better.
All research into this subject is taken from stast from across the broad spectrum of puppies ...... from pet shop to puppy farm to 'breeders' to dedicated breeders  but  the vast majority of pups are from anyone but ethical breeders.

We are giving breed/breeder specific information.

I never have to scrabble around advertising, frantically seeking homes for any puppy of mine just because they have to be out of here at 7 weeks....... I know mine well, have experience of how each and every one has developed and that living with me, until I choose to let them go, has had no untoward effects on their temperament.
A weak temperament is the inability to get over a bad experience....mine 'get over it'. My two 13 week old bitches met 3 screaming little girls today. They reacted just as Id expect them to. :-)

Not only can we predict what our puppies will turn out to look like we are also pretty good on  how they are going to behave.

So long as the breeder has done the socialisation, etc, there's really not a problem, as I see it. One of my litter from last year went at just over 4 months ... and from a litter sired by my boy a couple of years ago, a pup went at 17 weeks. Both exceptional puppies, I did the socialisation and everything I needed to do with them and both had a very easy transition into their new homes - both now training as search and rescue dogs ...  they really do need to be well socialised and bombproof :-) My oldest girl I got from her breeder at 4 months ... actually another one destined for SAR work but had to come 'home' as her handler got called up to serve overseas for 6 months. His loss my gain, but another absolutely bombproof dog ... well socialised by the breeder and the owner (albeit a short time owner) and there is no way anyone can tell me that young lady was past her sell by date for training.

Find out what's been done so far, what will be done until you could take the pup ... if all that is what you would want then don't worry about the age. I have a slightly different take on life than you it would appear, maybe down to life's little circumstances ... my belief is good dogs/pups don't hang around for long :-)

Hope you come to the decision you're happy with. Go on ... go see them, you know you want to ;-)

Thanks for all the replies.  What's for me won't go past but unfortunately it wasn't meant to be.
The 'breeder' wasn't really who I would normally get a pup from.  Great breeding but total novices breeding their 'pet' girl.  Pups had been weaned on rubbish and the couple worked most of the day and were younger so had an active social life too.  Pups were hardly socialised as it was never mind keeping him another few weeks.
I decided not.
Just remembered my first akita was 13 weeks when he came to me and had lived on a farm with hardly any socialisation up till then.  He was bombproof!  Silly me!  I like to worry about nothing and everything!!

Well at least you have your answer now and wont be wondering 'what if'. :-)

Do wonder if the confidence of the adult dog is due to a mixture of things rather than just the degree and skill of the person who has charge of it from say 8 weeks to 6 months.

First the basic temperament inherited from its ancestors.
Second the example of the dam and other adult dogs whilst with the breeder.
Third the depth of experiences sampled whilst still with the breeder when the pup is comfortable in the only home its known.
And Fourth when in it's new home it should develop trust in it's new owner if this happens then the dog will tackle anything new it comes across providing the first three temperament, example and early experience have shown them that trust is not harmful or uncomfortable.

Funnily,enough,brainless,ive been thinking along those lines myself,I had Jess at 9 weeks,I took her everywhere,carried her on the bus,introduced her to loads of folk-everyone wanted to stroke the cute pup in my arms.I took her to the horse show,i was determined she would be well socialised.Gwen,however,at 11 weeks,was too heavy to carry far-no-one ever made a fuss of her,she hasnt yet been on a bus,but she is so laid back,I cant believe it-none of jesses snappiness,sleeps at dog class instead of squealing and lunging,as Jess did.I suppose its down to temperament,but I was starting to wonder if Id socialised Jess too much.

>The 'breeder' wasn't really who I would normally get a pup from.  Great breeding but total novices breeding their 'pet' girl.  Pups had been weaned on rubbish and >the couple worked most of the day and were younger so had an active social life too.  Pups were hardly socialised as it was never mind keeping him another few >weeks.
>I decided not.

Well, hey-ho, but if the situation that I cautioned against didn't just come to pass...  (Not directed at you Cracar, but at others.)

I'm still failing to see what I've said here which is supposedly so controversial??

I'm sorry I haven't bred a litter yet, but I have trained and worked with over 600 puppies from almost every KC registered breed.  I have seen, first-hand, the effects of under-socialisation.  I'd consider myself to be more than expert enough to offer an opinion on this thread, whether or not I've reared a litter myself.

>All research into this subject is taken from stast from across the broad spectrum of puppies ...... from pet shop to puppy farm to 'breeders' to dedicated breeders  >but  the vast majority of pups are from anyone but ethical breeders.

Sorry but that's incorrect - scientific studies have been carried out where different breeds have been reared under specific control conditions and exposed to specific stimuli at certain ages.  That is how we can be so sure about the effects of undersocialisation in different breeds.  Anything else would be merely anecdotal and not hard evidence.

>I'm curiuos as to why is would be any more difficult for a breeder, with a family & other animals, to socilaise a puppy, than a new owner who has a family life & >other animals?

There are so many differences I'm not sure where to start.  Firstly, a new owner isn't going to have another puppy the same age to socialise, toilet train and crate train simultaneously - as the breeder would.  (I'm not sure why, whenever the 'should I get 2 puppies at once' subject is aired, everyone is almost unanimously against the idea, yet the prospect of a breeder having to simultaneously socialise, toilet train and crate train multiple puppies seems to be ok??  Talk about a HUGE defensiveness from people who breed, on this thread).  Secondly, it is only natural for new owners to be very excited and to have a wave of enthusiasm when they first bring puppy home - and boy, are they going to need it to get through the first weeks in most cases - this initial enthusiasm leads them to invest loads in the puppy during those first few weeks - which happily coincides with peak socialisation time.  By contrast, a breeder is recovering from the hard work of caring for bitch during pregnancy, whelping and first 7 wks and is at the end of all this - a very different situation to be in.  Finally, if a breeder has been planning on only keeping one or no puppies, and suddenly is left with 3, that is 3 extra dogs on their hands - unexpectedly and unwantedly.  This is very unlike a new owner, who has planned for a puppy and has considered whether they have room for one and time and attention for one more. 

You know, thinking that I must have made some huge faux pas here, or written something I didn't intend to, I have just read this whole thread back from the beginning.  I have to say that I still hold to everything I said, that it is the advice I would give a client if they emailed to ask me this question and that I'm more than qualified and experienced enough to offer these opinions.

>I'm still failing to see what I've said here which is supposedly so controversial??

I think it was this:
It's for sure useful to know what some breeders on here consider adequate socialisation - it certainly would make me think twice about a pup over the age of 8 wks from any breeder!

I am not a breeder (so can not take the above comment personally), but I read that statement as a derogatory remark implying that breeders on this forum are providing inadequate socialisation.

> I'm not sure why, whenever the 'should I get 2 puppies at once' subject is aired, everyone is almost unanimously against the idea, yet the prospect of a breeder having to simultaneously socialise, toilet train and crate train multiple puppies seems to be ok?? 

Taking on 2 puppies is a life-long comitment it's a lot different that letting puppies from a litter go at a week or two past the 'optimum' time. Taking on litter mates is not just a problem from a socialisation perspective in fact pups may gain confidance from socilasing in the big wide world with a sibling, it's about needing to put in an awfull lot of work to get the owner-dog bond (as pups will bond strongly with each other), can you imagine TWO 'teenage' dogs at once, all training gone out the window as the 'kevin' syndrome happens??? COMPLETELY different than a couple of 14 week old puppies!!!! (I've had litter-mates )

I appreciate that you have trained hundreds of dogs, but in all fairness, breeders on this forum have not just trained dogs, they put a lot of effort & comitment into carefully planning a litter, raising that litter with all the care in the world and with knowledge that mere pet-owners will never come near to, they give their advice (based on personal experience of actually rearing & homing puppies themselfs) for free - to help others - so I'd imagine they get a little irritated at thier veiws - no not just thier 'views' thier actual experiences - being dismissed.

There are several breeders that have contributed to this thread that I would give my right arm for one of thier pups, even though they don't breed my favorite breed. The care, knowledge, planning and rearing that goes into them is a world apart from the hoards of litters you see in the classifieds - these people are what all breeders should be striving to be.
I think you have drastically underestimated the quality, experience & knowledge of breeders here.

First off, ditto to Mastifflover -it's a big difference keeping a few pups for a few extra weeks to keeping them for life.

By contrast, a breeder is recovering from the hard work of caring for bitch during pregnancy, whelping and first 7 wks and is at the end of all this - a very different situation to be in.  Finally, if a breeder has been planning on only keeping one or no puppies, and suddenly is left with 3, that is 3 extra dogs on their hands - unexpectedly and unwantedly.

But this is WHY it's not a problem for us to socialise several pups. Once a few have gone, the difference is HUGE! Like I mentioned earlier I had 9 pups, four went and I had five left over Christmas (one I had promised the new owner to keep over Christmas for obvious reasons, two were going to the MOD at the other end of the country and they couldn't GET here due to the snow). Four pups less -it was such a big difference it seemed like a doddle, and starting to socialise five wasn't all that difficult -it just had to be done in shifts as you cant take five out at once. Likewise when the other three went and I was left with two I had to keep, the difference again was so huge THIS time (and it's the third time I've had to keep littermates), after several extra weeks, it was nothing to train two pups after having had many more. Still hard work, involving taking them to separate training classes etc, but the relief to go from five to two made it easier.

Also it is never totally unexpected to be left with several pups unless you have a toy litter. It's not something you hope will happen, and you do all you can to prevent it (personally I start 2 years in advance) but I have a very difficult to sell breed who cannot go to just anyone, so we all know it is quite possible to find yourself in this scenario each time you have a litter, and therefore you have to COUNT on the possibility and plan accordingly -not count on all but one being gone at 7 weeks! That's your back yard breeder -all pups gone at 7 weeks and money in the kitty for a holiday. Seldom happens to the rest of us.

At ringcraft this week a friend turned up with three 14 week old pups, was keeping two, the third still needs a home -so yet another breeder who makes sure to socialise and train. She doesn't even have ringcraft near where she lives so had about an hour's drive yet will do it every week. She was telling me how they were so relieved now they pups are fully vaccinated as they had spent weeks carrying them everywhere to get them used to towns etc.

Exactly Marianne what I was trying to get across badly ti would seam.

I have just seen off a little 11 week and 1 day old girl to the USA and had news that all was well.

Had this from the owner minutes after getting home:

"Hi Barbara,
      We just arrived home.  Flora is gorgeous!  We love her.  As soon
as she saw Sizzle and Sky her tail went right up.  She's eating now.
I'm absolutely dead tired after an absolutely horrendous time at the
airport.  I'll tell you about it tomorrow.  Right now I'm going to
shower and get to bed.

Take care and thank you for everything,"

I stayed up to 1.30am to track the flight, and stayed up until 3.47am when I got that message.

At the Airport Animal Reception I met one of the incoming canine passengers, a 10 months old Pointer who 'horror of horrors' had been kept by the breeder until he was able to come in on Pet Passport.  He had just been in the crate for 27 hours, but had been fed and watered at the ARC. 

This poor creature (not) came out politely friendly straight way making friends with his new family, had a fuss made by me and everyone else and happily hopped into the car to go to his new home.

Most 'breeders' (i'm talking those I would describe as breeders, not those whose bitches simply produce puppies) dogs have a much wider set of experiences than the average Pet dog.

This article makes some fo the points I was trying to make, that if the breeding is right then the dog will be right even if the ideal socialisation is not carried out, and that despite super socialisation some dogs will not be mentally stable enough.

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Features/19-Beasley-(2)?year=2011&month=05.

Of course ideally every dog should be bred for temperametn and that should be enhanced by suitable sensible socialisation to bring out the best in them.

> LOL I wish it always worked like that!! For my last litter I had TWELVE people waiting.

I'm with you Marianne.  And it doesn't always work like that for breeds that have small litters.  Most on here know that I had a litter born, almost a year ago - 5 in the litter - huge for the breed.  I ended up with  two people cancelling reservations, due to hubby redundancies. Apologies to those of you that have heard this before!

As the breed club advises 12 weeks (horrors) for pups leaving home, I am used to socialising pups, takeing them on holiday etc.  I appreciate that it is far easier for me than Marianne with her breed.  But when I realised that I would have to advertise for homes for the 2 pups, I advertised absolutely everywhere.  And was not happy with any of the enquiries that I received.  I did not, at any time, consider letting pups go to anyone that had the money.  If they weren't suitable, I would say no if a pup was 8 weeks or 18 weeks.

I decided to cancel all my ads and leave it until the right people came along.  I eventually had an enquiry from a couple that had a boy from me a couple of years ago.  They were looking for another boy.  They didn't know that I had pups, it was an enquiry that came along, just because they were happy with the temperament of the previous boy.  I didn't make any promises, just asked if they would like to visit with their boy.  I knew as soon as they arrived that their boy was just as sound as when he left me.  Within 15 minutes the lads were play bowing, jumping on each other, and having a whale of a time.  I knew that I had done right to wait for the right home.  The age of my pup?  Seven months, and he has settled in to his new home wonderfully.

Don't know why that link doesn't work: http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Features/19-Beasley-(2)?year=2011&month=05 It is Wendy Beasleyu's bit in Dog World issue 12th May.

Brainless, your new link didn't work properly either, for some reason the entire address is not being highlighted as a URL

I managed to get it up by copying it (past the highlighted section to include the rest of the address) and pasting it in the browser.

Here it is  :)

clever thing, thanks.