Recently bred a litter of pups.Paid stud fee plus second pick of litter.Felt that it was slightly steep however the stud dog was of high quality.May breed again in 18 months time.Wondered if other stud dog owners charge stud fee plus a pup.Not complaining about previous arrangement as I could have gone elsewhere but would like to know what is common practice.

I thought it was normal for one OR the other, not both.

Never heard of that from responsible breeders/stud owners, always one or the other.

A stud fee is alot less than the price of a pup and that is what most stud owners want, they may ask for a pup if it is an exceptional litter or want something of their own line back but expect to pay for it.

I certainly would not do both.

It depends on the usual stud fee and the price of pups.  For example, usual stud fee for one of my breeds is £250 with pups selling for £700, so you'd be well out of pocket!  Most people who want a pup would use the stud fee as a 'deposit'. For another breed the stud fee may be £500 and so might the price of pups, so it would be stud fee or puppy.  You're right to give second choice of litter, but feel you were overcharged :-(

It depends on the usual stud fee and the price of pups.

Indeed, in one of mine it is price of a pup.

> Paid stud fee plus second pick of litter

Sorry - they saw you coming.  I consider that to be plain avarice.

My breed sells from 700 - 1200 and stud fee is usually 200 - 250.  When someone used my boy a couple of years ago, I quoted 200, but really liked the bitch, and asked to be considered for a pup.  The 200 didn't change hands, as we agreed it would be counted as a 200 deposit for a pup.  I paid another 1000 after the litter was born, and I was offered the only bitch.  Now that is what I consider normal.

While I appreciate that you have stated that you are not complaining about the previous arrangement, I 100% think the stud owner has taken advantage of your naivety.

Trust me I am far from naive.The dog concerned was a Multi International Champion.I also saw previous breeding contracts which confirmed that others had 'bought into' the same agreement.I spoke to many top breeders before I made my choice.Admittedly the majority charged the cost of a pup,this being a four figure sum.I do find it strange that someone would charge £200 stud fee and then pay £1200 for a pup from the resultant litter.Now some people may consider that naive.

> .Now some people may consider that naive

It's very common in a breed that has 1-3 pups.  And I have used studs myself from top breeders, and only been charged £250, so perhaps it would be strange in some breeds, but certainly not my own.

> Trust me I am far from naive.The dog concerned was a Multi International Champion

Most of us have used Int. Ch. at some point or other, and never have I given 2nd pick or any other pick.. pay stud fee and if owner of stud wishes a pup, they pay for it...

Can you tell me the reasoning behind paying a fee AND handing over a pup?

Contractual agreement.

A contractual agreement is not a reason.. I just wondered why people would do this.. more curious than anything else.. Everyone is different and may have reasons for entering into this type of contract, I just wondered why?

>would like to know what is common practice.

I think perhaps you have your answer: one or the other, not both, is more common with other CD users.  Did you check around in your own breed, what did your own breeder think of the arrangement, is this usual in your breed?

It certainly sounds exceptionally high.  If the stud owner had decided not to take one of your pups would you have had to pay them more money instead?

Sorry maybe I should have expanded.Those were the terms laid down by the stud dog owners and I had little option but to accept this or go elsewhere.In hindsight I may have done things differently.However I am surprised that in some breeds the stud fee appears to be much less than the cost of a pup.Appears to be where small litters are commonplace unlike with my breed.

Stud fees in my breed are £300 and pups are 700.

I have twice used overseas champions, the most recent a son of a Multi champion show and hunting dog.

On both occasions I was kindly put up by the stud dog owners for the duration of my stay (first time 8 days this time 12 days) for the price of a puppy stud fee. 

In this most recent litter the stud dog owner decided to buy and import one of the resulting pups, she was the last show potential bitch left, and as she had liked her from the start of photos being exchanged and it looked like she might end up in a pet only home she decided to pay for and have her, so cost of shipping vet certs and vaccinations left her out of pocket after the stud fee, but then my own puppy cost more than anyone else's when I took costs of the litter into account.

We both ended up with our pups costing us double what the ones other people bought cost them.

Common practice is one or the other but if you are determined to use a particular dog then you have to comply with the stud dog's owner's wishes. The number or the quality of awards earned by the stud do not normally have any bearing on the fee charged most dog owners following the norm for the breed and bitch owners looking for a dog that will improve and complement their bitch expecting that the stud fee of the chosen dog will be within the norm for the breed.

Agree and that is why I used the dog.It did indeed both improve and compliment my bitch.Slighty surprised that the fee is considered uniform within a breed.I would have thought that the quality of the dog would have had a bearing on the charge.After all in life you tend to pay for that little bit extra.Thanks for everyones input it has given me food for thought.

What about winning Best of Breed at Crufts two years running in a breed with HUGE entries?

In many peoples eyes equal to or exceeding the kudos of an Int Champion in most breeds.

I paid a 'Normal' stud fee for the breed and a free mating if didnt get anything good enough for the show ring...but then, the owners were not out to screw money from people.

Yes you are right about different 'grading' within a breed, well in mine anyway. A stud can vary from as low as £200 to as high as £600(depending on alot on things). The stud for my male is £350. Pups also vary for a similar range as the studs...I have just paid £500 for a bitch pup & the same for one 8 months ago.
I havent heard of charging for both before

Hi 'tooolz' I really did not think that the owners were trying to 'screw money out of me'. They had invested heavily in their dog. As the saying goes I paid my money and took my chances. Having took on board the views of people on the forum I may have done things differently.You do indeed live and learn.

I think the most important thing to learn form this thread is that there is absolutely no "Usual practice" across the board of all breeds when it comes to stud fees,   what is usual practice in one breed is considered vastly under or over prices in another.  Ultimately it is important to fully discuss the fee and other conditions when planning the mating, if you are happy with it, then  go ahead.

In one of my breeds, where pups sell for about £700 to £800 the average stud fee is £600 to £700, in the other, with pups at £1000 to £1200 the stud fees average about £250 to £400.

In my breed the pups - whoever they are out of sell for around £700 and the stud fee's for the dogs are around £450.  There are however one or two in the breed who think they are a little above everyone else and charge an absolute fortune for pups and stud fees and churn pups out...with not much of a vetting process either!

> .I would have thought that the quality of the dog would have had a bearing on the charge.After all in life you tend to pay for that little bit extra

No as the producing ability of the dog is more about the overall quality of the dogs in it's pedigree, and how it gels with your bitches.

The logic would then be to use the sire or a brother of the dam (if still available)depending where the desired characteristics in the dog you like came from.

If a breeder chooses to uses a particular dog it is (or should be) for the reason that they think it will give them quality offspring based on the qualities of the dog and bitch and their ancestors.

I would hope no-one would use a dog because it's cheaper or dearer than the next.

Of course one should use a quality animal, but whether it has a big winning record is neither here nor there.

Certainly I would expect a dog I used to be capable of winning/bearing favourable comparison with it's peers, but a winning record or title is a different matter.

As for investing in a dog, if you import a dog in my breed where half a dozen litters from a dog would impact heavily on the gene pool you would hardly ever hope to recoup your outlay, and look on it as an investment in your breed.

I would never agree to hand over a pup to anyone I had not chosen. Stud fee in my breed is the price of a pup but if a stud dog owner wanted a pup instead it would have to be on my terms. I use the dog I like and (Not happened yet..But!!!) it may be that the owner is not what I would want for my pups. I think if that was what they wanted then I may well look elsewhere. I would have to consider the options very very carefully. My pups are too precious to be used as money. Good homes outweigh anything else.
Aileen

I'm just curious Celtic Lad, we all use sort after stud dogs and like the majority I pay the stud fee or as I did once, a pup,  but you say the stud fee and a pup is part of this stud dog owners usual contract.

Well, most stud dogs are used quite often are you telling me that this stud dog owner always has a pup too, what does he do with all these pups? Does he keep them or sell them on for more profit?

The reason why it is so wrong for this stud dog owner to have even more profit than the stud fee, is apart from perhaps a bitch panicking during mating and hurting a dogs p*nis if not supervised properly, it is the bitch owner that has to carry all costs.

The only joint costs are the breed health checks which both will do, otherwise the bitch owner has:

From vet bills, (which can be horrendous) to whelping equipment, to time spent which is hours and hours of time/lack of sleep, to food bills, to vetting, inoculations/microchipping, (if done) wormers, flea treatment, puppy vet health checks, the list goes on....... it is all usually the work and cost of the bitch owner alone, which is why stud dog owners never expect more than what they put in which is the dogs sperm. 

As well as potential puppy loses too.

This stud dog owner is bang out of order IMO, I honestly wouldn't care if the dog was a Multi int Ch, I would have looked elsewhere, it's appalling.

On the plus side you don't feel so, so I guess no harm done to yourself, but he has one heck of a cheek.

most stud dogs are used quite often

The frequency of some dogs use would also worry me, I think responsible stud owners would restrict the use of their boy, at first in order to see what he produces when mated to particular lines and then so as not to flood the breed with his genes that may, in the future, be proven to have a problem.

Perhaps because my own breed has very small numbers compared to some I am very aware of what the heavy use of one dog can do to the breed as a whole in what is a surprisingly small number of generations. Do realise that in a breed of greater numbers the effect may not be so noticeable but you are or may be introducing an unwanted detail of conformation or temperament and I think stud owners have a huge responsibility to the breed far more that the owner of a bitch.

A dog can easily produce over a 100 puppies a bitch would be considered productive to reach 20

Very true Nova, and as we know winning anything, doesn't guarantee a dog is genetically sort after,  a fine specimen on the outside does not make it so on the inside, hopefully in the future that will all change.

Hi 'Carrington' I asked the question about the future of the pup.I was assured that the pup would be run on to allow assessment of show potential.Our hope is that she will indeed make the grade.I have checked with The Kennel Club and she is still registered to the stud dog owner.The title that the dog gained was mentioned purely to highlight that the dog was of good quality.The pregnancy was not without complications and resultantly the pups are very close to our hearts.I do believe that if the pup is sold on it will go to a loving home.As I have mentioned in earlier posts if I had my time again I would possibly go down a different route.

Very pleased to hear that your pup has at least been kept, well done on checking with the KC. :-)

In light of my last entry I contacted the Kennel Club again this morning to confirm present ownership.I had previously done so a few months ago.Very disappointed to learn that she has been sold on.The breeder had assured me that she would be run on until around the six month period.This has clearly not been the case.As there was no contractual agreement there is probably little I can do.I feel that the least the stud owner could have done was a courtesy call.Like any caring responsible breeders we have kept in touch with new owners.Really should have known better.We feel dreadfully let down and almost conned.

What a shame the stud dog owner did'nt let you know , where you baby had gone , just a thought i would ring and  ask , i could be wrong here but if the pup has been sold on to a 3rd party were they made aware of any endorsements it happened recently in my breed and the kc lifted the endorsements because the new owners were not made aware, the original breeder tried to stop it but was overuled, hope this is not the case for you.

So sorry to hear that your pup the stud owner took has been sold on without you knowing.

I would ring up to enquire how the pup is and see what they have to say, after all if it was deemed show quality what has gone wrong that this is no longer the case, if there is a problem then you need to know for the pup you kept as well as the ones you sold on.

Oh dear............... your right nothing you can do, once a pup is passed on it is legally out of your hands, yes, you were well...... not conned, taken advantage of and held to ransom so to speak for the use of this dog, people can change their minds about keeping animals there is nothing you can do, but it was a bad situation from day one, you'll know better now, I hope that your pup is in a good home and it wasn't just first person to the price asked.

He must make a fortune from the pups he sells on, it probably doesn't bother him too much as he hasn't had to pay for them,

I suppose you could call the stud dog owner and ask if he would pass on the new owners telephone number, (the BRS will print transfers names)  so that you could at least stay in contact, but he does not have to tell you.

Really sorry it turned out this way. He was a greedy stud owner so I guess it is not a complete shock.

What a horrible situation you find yourself in, Celtic Lad.  I do hope this stud dog owner didn't talk you into not endorsing this puppy they took?  I'd certainly be giving them a call to try and find out more - including whether the new owners were aware of any endorsements!

What I find particularly distasteful is the fact that the pup has now had three homes within a short period of time.Some would argue at the most important part of her development.Will consider calling the stud dog owner but feel that it may descend into a war of words.

Celtic Lad you haven't said whether this bitch puppy carried any endorsements?  Sadly three homes whilst still a puppy could be just the start of this poor girl's problems. :-(  You may have to bite your tongue when talking to the stud dog owner - but worth it to try and help your pup.

Endorsements were placed on other pups.However it was agreed that there pup would not be endorsed.To be fair this was made clear from the outset.I am pretty confident that they would have placed an endorsement before selling.After all the new owners could become competition in the marketplace.Funnily enough I see that the stud dog owners have a forthcoming litter of pups being advertised on CD.

It's a good rule of thumb to place endorsements on all puppies in the litter - including your own!  If in future you as the breeder feel that the dog/bitch has sufficient breed merit, good temperament, good health tests results (breed specific) etc, etc - then it's up to you to lift those endorsements.  Very easy to do.  Surely your confidence in this stud dog owner has already been severly dented?  How sure are you that your puppy will be sold as endorsed?  An unendorsed bitch is potentially very valuable to puppy farmers. :-(

One of my bitches had a litter for her breeder under a KC Loan of Bitch Agreement last year.  All the puppies in the litter were endorsed - that included the puppy she kept for herself and the one I kept.  The fact that the stud dog owner insisted on no endorsements would have given me pause for thought!

<<<I am pretty confident that they would have placed an endorsement before selling>>>

I think you will find it is only the breeder that can put the endorsement not, not a subsequent owner.

That's incorrect. The OWNER can also place an endorsement.
Kennel Club regulations allow the registered owner of a dog to place endorsements on a dog's records, provided that the dog is in their physical possession and registered ownership.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/365

> I think you will find it is only the breeder that can put the endorsement not, not a subsequent owner

Owners can place endorsements.  

edited to say oops.. didn't notice Marianne's reply

I bred a litter for the first time last year. I paid the price of a puppy for the stud fee (which is usual for the breed) to an excellent dog who is a champion in many countries and produced top winning progeny. I was offered a repeat free mating if only 2 or 3 puppies and we stayed there for over a week, this was in Europe. I thought that was a more than fair agreement.

I planned to keep a bitch to show and hopefully continue the line, however I ended up keeping a dog who stole my heart, he is endorsed along with the entire litter. All puppy buyers had contracts explaining this and other 'conditions', and I thought I had everything quite 'tight', but I have now amended it in case I breed again, as I realised it wasn't as 'tight' as I thought.

We all live and learn and we don't get it right every time, but as long as we are all trying our best to produce sound, healthy pups, to try to improve breeds, and ensure pups go to the best homes, we can't do any more.

My point is, we may all do things differently second time around, and the advice and experience on this forum will help that.

Yes Goldmali you are correct.I did check all of the regulations with the Kennel Club before the pup went to the stud dog owners.This allows them as registered owners of a dog without endorsements to in turn place endorsements.

> Well, most stud dogs are used quite often are you telling me that this stud dog owner always has a pup too, what does he do with all these pups? Does he keep them or sell them on for more profit?

When I realised that the arrangement for both a stud fee and a puppy was the normal procedure I heard warning bells.  I could never keep a puppy every time someone used my boy.  I have seen so many greedy people do this, just to sell on, that I wondered if it was a money making thing.  I had rather guessed that he sold on more than he kept, that's for sure.   Not your average dog person certainly.

Husband and wife 'team' both Championship Show Judges !

I have seen this is many bulldogs and french bulldogs so im making an assumption that this is one of your breeds? Correct me if i am wrong, if you want to get the 'in' lines and they will know that they will ask for a lot. This is the reason i wouldnt give a pup, i can take pups as fee (not often) but sell them as i do my own litters to caring people and take them back offer lifetime of advice etc etc. Poor pup being passed about, greedy thats what they are and they wont stop getting greedier until those stop handing over money for there studs and pups.

Sadly being a Championship judge does not automatically mean that you have ethics or the temperaments to help others in your breed.