This weekend just gone my partner and i went to York for the weekend. It was part of his christmas present from me.

I have four giant breed and had left the two youngest with a friend as i didnt think they would cope in the hotel room.

So we took the two eldest and most reliable. Off we went for a lovely lunch in York city center looking at the lovely old buildings and we found a lovely street cafe to have lunch in.

Our lunch had just arrived when a young lad (early twenties) approached us and asked if he could stroke them.

I said fine but was i bit miffed as we were eating, he then proudly told us he was a dog trainer and could "teach my dogs to walk without the headcollars they were wearing" now in all fairness the two wearing them dont need them on their own but when i walk all four i need total control so they just get used to waering them. So out of interest i said ok go on then how would you do that? (always willing to learn)

He said well, i would use a collar, ok i said what type of collar? (i know you all know whats coming) yep he proudly stated PRONG COLLAR.
At this point i lost all patience and told him i dont agree with them and to stop there as i wasnt interested.

BUT..he kept on trying to tell me i was wrong and didnt understand, i told him to walk away now or i will get really angry, he kept on saying how dogs ONLY learn from aversive stimilus were his words. Now i'm not known for my patience so at this point i was at boiling point a had my dogs sat by me impeccably behaved, we were having lunch and some idiot was telling me i should be using these ridiculous collars..

I had to tell him in no uncertain terms to walk away or he will see me really really angry. He walked off complaining how ridiculous I  was!!

It's scary how there seems to be a new generation of "trainers" thinking like this (or are they all brothers?!!). I'd like to know how he thinks, as one simple example, Mary Ray's dogs have learnt all they do seeing as she doesn't use aversive methods but clicker trains?!

> (or are they all brothers?!!)

Perhaps he's on holiday this week, in York?

Wonder how long before someone brings out a shocking prong collar with extra long prongs to reach through thick coats to make sure the thicker coated dogs with a masochistic temperament do not miss out on the excitement. What sick dominating fools these people are.

I can not wait for the day when one of these types of trainers dares to try and seduce moi!! Boy........ I don't have to be polite in person, would they get a tongue lashing, I hope that you managed to cool down and enjoy the rest of your time in York, though the thought of someone wishing to pr*ng collar my dog would send me off the wall, how dare he........

The scary thing is there are people who don't know any better and may take up his offer on their unsuspecting dog.

I run training classes myself but thought I would email someone who is proudly calling themselves the best dog trainer in the area (about an hour from where I live) as they say they can train any dog to do anything....so I asked how they would go about training my Akita a perfect recall and a couple other things....the reply was after I paid over £100 for a consultation they would start training and most likely use Electric Collars!! 

In fact my Akita's recall is pretty good and if not she stands and waits on command and she was trained from a pup in a positive reward based way.

Lets put one of these collars the so called trainer and see how he/she reacts to  our kind of training towards them..bet they wont promote so easily or quickly then.

Just my opinion...sorry if Ive offended anyone!!

i totally agree with you toffee crisp

You could have whipped out a book and tried to convert him to (insert relevant religion) and beat him at his own game............. ;)

IMO there is no point in trying to convert they actively enjoy causing pain it gives them a sense of power they could never earn from skill because they have none.

Just out of interest does anybody know what the stance is on any of the Degree courses people can undertake in Animal behaviour ? Do they cover the use of these tools as have seen it mentioned in various places but wondered what the academic view is on this ?

Well leaving the issue of the difference between behaviourists and trainers aside, there is not an academic view on the use of any tool other than they exist, and that there are pros and cons to each depending on the skill of the trainer, owner, type of dog context etc.

Animal behaviour is about just that, animal behaviour, it will be examined when exposed to positive/negative punishment and positive/negative reinforcement.

You do not discuss the potential merits of liver v cheese but food in general; the same applies to equipment.

gosh, a cafe serving lunch allows dogs in? i cant believe that. is this another wind up about prong/e collars?

It was a street cafe tina s, so presumably they were sitting at a table outdoors.

There are many cafes and pubs that will serve you outside and allow you to have your dogs with you although many will not allow you inside.

Snap Pookin

Wish we had a like button Toffeecrisp.. I would happily put one of these collars on the 'trainers' advocating their use to see much they enjoyed negative training methods.

> There are many cafes and pubs that will serve you outside and allow you to have your dogs with you although many will not allow you inside.

There is a fabulous pub that I found at Hope Cove when on holiday in Devon some years back.  So, don't know if it's changed now.

But, although not allowed in the restaurant, you could sit at a table in the bar and order your food.  It wasn't a chain, so REAL food.  The table next to me had a middle aged couple, who profusely apologised if I could smell wet dog, as their lab had been swimming (she was laid under their table.)

Just told them that dog smell was not a problem (what I hate is being close to people with armpit stench!)

It was a pub that I can recommend.

I think what got me was the fact that he chose to come and tell me how to train  my dogs, i didnt ask him to come over yet he wanted to tell me how stupid my methods were an how his were great. He just didnt get it. I think i was very calm all considering.

Ah! there are self opinionated people every where as there are those who don't care if you want to be a subject of their evangelism you will get it anyway.

I always ask people who use prong collars how they would feel if everytime they did something 'wrong' at work someone stuck pins/prongs in them!!!

LJS

Stephen Lindsay is even-handed about the subject and writes on it extensively. It is his view that ES techniques (not prong) might have a place in some instances and with certain types of dog, but he is clear that tools need refining and further research and good evidence is needed and that this is not a technique that should ever be used other than by extremely knowledgable, able trainers with a well-rounded dog training history, and a complete/extensive knowledge of learning theory and cynology. Thus, not as others have suggested, a tool that can be easily used by any person, or even novice trainers.

Never been to york! I do know lots more trainers are turning to e and prong collars for the results they give though. I think the days of reward based only are falling away!

Btw e collars come with extra long contact points so if you have heavy coated dogs like huskies they still get good contact.

Adam

Far from it, unfortunately thanks to the likes of Cesar Milan the older style trainers and tools, and the quick fixes they offer, are having a bit of a revival.  But positive methods are alive and well and flourishing.

Yes I have to say when people phone up and enquire about the training classes we provide the majority, if not all want to know that we are going to show them how to train their dog using reward based methods.  Also I have many people come along to me for training after they have been to other local 'trainers' who have kicked, slapped, grabbed their dog and the owners have left horrified!  So in my experience the 'old' outdated harsh handling methods are being flung out the window and in with the reward based ways.

Why is it that the people who choose to use these items of equipment feel the need to be so pushy about them?
I mean there you are, sitting happily, enjoying your lunch with with well behaved dogs, and this person thinks he has the right to regale you with his view! *rolleyes*

Pushiness seems to be a very common denominator. That and a complete refusal to listen.

Lindsay
x

The bottom line is that use of an aversive, even if the aim is to condition for negative reinforcement, is fraught and easily misused/abused. Reward based training is safer. What worries me is the claim that any old Tom, Dick or Harry can use ES- just pick one up and zap away. That is a dangerous and irresponsible line and makes one doubt the bearer of the message. That this young man so cockily foisted himself on a dog owner that probably knows more than him speaks volumes.