Help!!!!
I have a litter of 6 puppies who are 3.5 weeks old.
I started weaning them at 2.5 weeks old. Yes I know this is too early usually I wait until they are aboiut 3.5 weeks old but I had to wean them early as mum was having problems. (Not health issues but I dont really want to go into her problems or I will be here all night!!)
Anyway I am using Eukanuba starter. I have never used this brand before. But the pups have projectile runs which can be anything from coloured water to bright yellow!
i have just had some fish4dogs delivered and I tried them yesterday with it but they turned their nose up at it. Is it worth persevering with it as I have read that it is excellent for puppies with the runs.
I have a bucket load of arden grange puppy & weaning too but havent used that as it tends to give mum the runs. (It might be worth mentioning that all the way through her pregnancy she had terrible liquid poo but she is Ok again now and is eating a mix of arden grange lamb & rice and beta sensitive - I havent yet found a puppy food which doesnt upset her tummy hence why I have a lactating dog on adult food - but she does eat a lot!!)
I know its good but I really dont want to go down the raw food option right now and want to stick to a complete food.
I have a 6.5 week old litter of another breed who eat the eukanuba mixed with pedigree chum (only way they would eat but slowly they are coming off the pedigree chum) and they are doing amazing on it.
I also have a bag of beta puppy but not tried that one!
Any idea what to try? Obviously I cant keep changing or their little tummies will never adapt. They were wormed Mon/Tues/Wed on panacur and I first noticed the squits yesterday morning.
Do I stick to the Eukanuba or try the fish4dogs again? It isnt a cost thing I will try anything just a good all round sensitive food!
The puppies are very advanced. Full teeth, barking, running, fighting etc no sickness etc so I am not worried that they are ill. They still feed a bit from mum and are drinking water already They are with mum all day unless it is dinner time.
I am currently feeding them 7am, 12pm, 4pm and about 8pm, small amounts regularly.
Feel free to tell me where I am going wrong!!
I have been breeding for years although only the odd litter here and there, and whilst we have had pups with the runs before this syuff flies!!
I could go to the vet but I am sure they will just give me synulox drops as they always do.
Thanks

With liquid or projectile poo/runs, I would be straight to the vet with them I'm afraid (especially if you say the dam had similar through pregnancy).  Sounds to me like a bug such as campylobacter, or giardia, and you need to get it sorted before they dehydrate.

A bit of looseness or runniness with change of diet and/or worming is another thing, but what you have got sounds like it needs treating.

I agree with you Kennel maiden, wont take long for the pups to go downhill. wouldnt you be better on 6 small meals at mo?  8 at night till 7 in morning is a long time without food,

Also agree with the others a bit of looseness (Mr whippy poos) with worming and changing diet, but what you describe needs to be treated probably with AB's.

Try to get stool samples for testing so the right AB is prescribed, both for Mum and pups (collect both sets of stool samples).

I feed 4 times a day but space out more with last meal about 10pm so they are not goign so long from last to first.  Mine are never on more than 4 meals a day, wth Mum in between.

My puppies are 6.5 weeks old and I won't let them go more than 8  hours without food. The last meal is around 11pm and the next one 6 to 7am Also I think a litter that young can not use solid food very well, if Mum is not feeding them regularly alongside the puppy food then they may need Lactol or a bitches milk replacement. I also agree that softish poohs can be managed but runny / watery poohs are a sign of serious problems and I would advise getting to the vet asap. Good luck.

I agree with the others but would like to add a word of caution over using panacur for pups - I've heard it can lead to problems and would strongly recommend drontal for pups.  Problems have included development problems and worse, some pups have died.

Do you have any links for this information please Penny?

A few years back on here it was Drontal that folk were having problems with giving to their pups which is why I went with Panacur and had no problems.

So it looks like as in many meds not all brands suits all.

The stuff on worming is on another forum so no, sorry

ok here's a posting from another forum

There used to be a website with horror stories from different breeders who had lost whole litters after using Panacur. There were certainly Dachshund and Poodle people on there as well, and I seem to recall that they were paid damages for their lost puppies.

BTW, the breeder I mentioned who had lost 2 pups fitting after Panacur, wasn't *********. Didn't know she'd lost 3 whole litters after using it! :(

I used to use Panacur on my in-whelp bitches, the 10% liquid, from Day 40 of pregnancy, although I did NOT like the idea of daily dosing. (That was before I rang Bayer and found I COULD use Drontal Plus during pregnancy, just one dose on Day 53.)

The reason I rang Bayer is because I bred a puppy with the eye condition, PHPV - Persistant Hyperplastic Primary Vitreous. To cut a very long story short, after consulting an opthalmological expert on PHPV, that the wormer was to blame, as you start giving it at a crucial time in the development of the eye. The pup's eyes didn't continue to develop correctly.

He's OK though - he belongs to a friend of mine, who has 3 of my dogs. He went on to develop cataracts and had to have surgery, with Mr. Tesco kindly paid for, their experts apparently not having made the connection between the conditions, although the latter is a documented complication of the former!

As there had been 15 puppies resulting from a repeat mating of the sire and dam of said puppy, (he was born in the 2nd litter,) the opthalmologist said it wasn't a case of heredity, especially as the sire was a prolific stud dog and the dam produced 5 litters, (35 puppies,) and only 1 puppy with PHPV.

Still want to use Panacur anyone?

Another one

I nearly lost my darling Bliss as a puppy, when a b****y locum gave her Panacur, when I took her in for her second innoculation. I'd only wormed her the day before with Drontal Plus. She then collapsed a couple of days later - she's got a scratch on her muzzle and her immune system couldn't cope as it had been overloaded.

She ran a temperature of 107.5 F and how she didn't end up in Status Epilepticus with that high a fever, I don't know. Had to rush her to a vet out of hours, Friday evening, and she stuffed her with anti-inflammatories and antibiotics and sent me home to cool her down. I did so until well after midnight, dunking her feet in cold water, cooling her bare tummy with a wet flannel, fanning her dampened coat, and syringing water into her mouth to keep her hydrated.

Temperature when I went to bed was still 103.5 F. Got up at 6am and she was still flat out, like a pyjama case! Temp was still 103.5 F. Took her 3 or 4 days to get over it, but she survived, thank Heaven.

Can't tell you what I said to my vet when he came back from holiday, but that locum WON'T be treating any clients' pets again, without consulting them first!

I now drill it into my puppy owners, and type it LARGE, in red, in several places in my Puppy File, DO NOT WORM AND VACCINATE ON THE SAME DAY! Tell your vet NOT to worm your puppy, before you let him touch it! :)

And again

I know an experienced BC breeder who lost 2 puppies, fitting, within 48 hours of using Panacur Liquid, so I would never use it on BC pups.

I worm my in-whelp bitch on Day 53 of her pregnancy, with Drontal Plus - get her weighed at the vet's on that day, so I know her exact weight including whelps.

It says on the Drontal Plus leaflet that it's not to be used on pregnant bitches, but if you ring Bayer, they'll tell you the above protocol. They only put that on their leaflets, because Jo Public, who's bitch was got at by the local mongrel, probably won't know when, and it MUST be given on Day 53 because of the developmental stage of the whelps.

So if the bitch has been wormed on Day 53, no need to treat baby puppies with Panacur.

As I have said before I have used it on every in whelp bitch since my first for 6 generations of bitches, and their puppies.  That is 18 litters

I do not worm pups before three weeks of age.

Problems, once  my 3rd litter (bitches second) first time I had the manufactures dosage sheet and wormed at 5 weeks and 3 pups had bad diarrhoea. 

Before and since I worm pups at 3 and then 7 weeks (so they get over it before homing).

I dose very carefully each puppy individually.

I do not give the next 0.5ml until the next kg weight is reached so a pup of 1.2kg gets the dose for 1kg, 2.5kg gets 2kg dose etc.  Considering that the dosage level for dogs is much higher than for other species (Sheep 1ml per 10kg weight) I do not feel I am under dosing.

I have never seen worms in either puppies or adults.

It is possible to use other products in pregnancy safely, but do they do what we want, that is deal with encysted larval stages of roundworms???  This is the whole point fo pregnancy worming from my point of view to reduce to negligible levels the transference to the pups.

Was permission for these posts to be crossposted here saught as they are taken from a closed members only list? Which includes in its terms of membership that post will not be copied and used elsewhere.

:-)

Same here Rodach, Brainless,

I use Panacur on all my dogs after having problems with Drontal.

Never given it to an in-whelp Bitch.   Bitch would be wormed the day of last mating and then wormed with the pups at 3 weeks.  Never seen any sign of worms and never had any problems either ;)

I'm a bit dubious about what might be reported on a 'closed' forum.  On an open forum, it's easy for anyone to read what has been written and then check up for themselves - it's in the public domain, not so on a closed forum.   If this is true, why haven't the people concerned discussed it openly so that others who might be affected can find the information?

How well documented are these cases?  

This is a specific Border collie list :-) Not a secret society LOL  but you do need to become a member to post and read.

> I've heard it can lead to problems

You are always going to get peoples preferences and different experiences.  I have used Panacur 10% for many years.  Currently on two toy breeds.  One of my breeds can need as little as 0.02ml for their first dose.  It's important to remember that, while folk make a great deal over worming for 3 days - it's a very tiny dose.

> Problems have included development problems and worse, some pups have died.

I've never had developmental problems, using at the correct dose.  I weigh each pup individually (although I do know of folk with larger breeds that work out the dose for the largest pup, and dose the whole litter the same.)  I prefer to be exact, and have no problems whatsoever.

I agree with another poster, it's not a secret society, permission has been given (sorry should have said) for my postings, people are actually happy to help others and spread the word about dangers and experiences from others ... the actual wording was 'of course'. The forum in question is 'closed' but anyone with an interest in (border) collies, showing or working (including agility etc) and who isn't there to cause problems are welcome to apply to go on, it's available though yahoo forums so it's not hidden or elitist.  There are a lot of show people on there but also herding, agility, obedience people as well.
Penny

I'm a bit dubious about what might be reported on a 'closed' forum.  On an open forum, it's easy for anyone to read what has been written and then check up for themselves - it's in the public domain, not so on a closed forum.   If this is true, why haven't the people concerned discussed it openly so that others who might be affected can find the information?

Well how strange?  It's not a secret society, for the people who are members they have 'discussed openly' so that others can read - for them the forum is their chat area and why should they then move to somewhere else to discuss what they've already discussed?  Why should you be 'dubious' over other people's exchange of ideas?  What do you mean by 'documented'?  Are you saying people have made up losing litters and having ill pups?  I'm sure that their vets will have the information on file, but I'm also sure that those that this has happened to didn't document it in any other way, what would you have had them do?  I just can't get your thoughts here :-(

Penny

I use Panacur on all my dogs after having problems with Drontal.

Could you tell us what the problems with Drontal were?  It may be 'breed specific' ie some breeds may have problems with Drontal and some with Panacur, a sort of ivermectin type issue.  Thanks.  Penny

I've never had developmental problems, using at the correct dose.  I weigh each pup individually (although I do know of folk with larger breeds that work out the dose for the largest pup, and dose the whole litter the same.)  I prefer to be exact, and have no problems whatsoever.
Quote selected text

I would like to point out that the collie people who have issues are reputable people, so please don't blame anyone for issues and try to make out that it's their fault.  You may just have been lucky - lots of people are.

After giving Drontal to my healthy 16 week old pup, she had the worst diarrhoea I have ever seen - it lasted over a week.   The vet declared that it was the wormer and advised never using it again.

>Could you tell us what the problems with Drontal were?  It may be 'breed specific' ie some breeds may have problems with Drontal and some with >Panacur, a sort of ivermectin type issue.  Thanks.  Penny

After giving Drontal to my healthy 16 week old pup, she had the worst diarrhoea I have ever seen - it lasted over a week.   The vet declared that it was the wormer and advised never using it again.

Thanks but of course the diarrhoea could have been anything :-( had the vet any particular reason for declaring it was the wormer?  Penny

My litter experienced awful diarrhoea when we used Panacur, two pups ended up in the vets for 3 days,  since then we've only used Drontal and thankfully not had any problems since.

My vet only stocks Panacur, which is why we used it to start with, so now I always buy my own online (and alot cheaper)

As I ahve said before these asre strogn chmiclas 9posons) and of course tehre ae occasionally boudn to be side efects.

I prefer Panacur as it is more efficient in that it acts on the larval stages which the ingredients of the Drontal puppy don't (hence why it's fortnightly dosing rather than 3 to 4 weekly with Panacur).

As a breeder reducing the encysting of the larva in teh tissues of my potential future breeding bitches is important to me as it will reduce the transference to future generations of these parasites.

Drontal does act on larval stages if you follow instructions above. For me the side effects of developmental damage and death outway killing a few more lavae :-(

As I said I have never had any deaths or abnormalities that could be attributed to anything let alone Panacur which has been widely tested in pregnancy in various species.

> I would like to point out that the collie people who have issues are reputable people, so please don't blame anyone for issues and try to make out that it's their fault. 

I apologise if I said Collie people, as this was certainly not the case.  And I would never, ever be rude enough to blame anyone.  I certainly wouldn't make out that it's their fault.  It isn't in my nature.

I made a truthful observation, and pointing fingers was not in the equation.  Having just checked back, I see that I didn't mention Collie people, so not sure where you took this from.  However, I have apologised for any offence caused.

    > I would like to point out that the collie people who have issues are reputable people, so please don't blame anyone for issues and try to make out that it's their fault. 
I apologise if I said Collie people, as this was certainly not the case.  And I would never, ever be rude enough to blame anyone.  I certainly wouldn't make out that it's their fault.  It isn't in my nature.

Thanks for clarifying - it was just that you responded to my post, quoting

   > Problems have included development problems and worse, some pups have died.

with a comment

I've never had developmental problems, using at the correct dose.  I weigh each pup individually (although I do know of folk with larger breeds that work out the dose for the largest pup, and dose the whole litter the same.)  I prefer to be exact, and have no problems whatsoever.

which I'm afraid I took as a criticism of the people in the quote, blaming them for incorrect dose.  I can only repeat that the people who've had problems with the wormer take care over the dosing and shouldn't be made to feel that they are in any way to blame.  I can only repeat what I said earlier - you may just have been lucky, many people are.  Next time though you may not be and I felt that people on this list had a right to know that there are concerns and problems have happened - a minority of pups wormed by panacur have been damaged or have died.  With that knowledge, people on this forum can make their own decisions.  I have made the decision to stick with Drontal, I have herding breeds which may be more at risk than others (although this may not be the case as other people have quoted other breeds)

It's pointless to keep saying 'I've had no problems', we get that, it's fine, people will make their minds up.  However, responsible and caring breeders, quite capable of weighing pups individually have lost litters.  Many others haven't.  People will make their own minds up having read the posts.  I'm not going to continue with this 'I haven't had a problem - I've had a problem' as it's not particularly helpful.  It can be an issue if you don't get the dosage right then you may contribute, but my truthful observation is that this isn't always the case.  You may not have said 'collie people' but you did make the remarks after quoting what the collie people said.

However, I accept that wasn't your intention and hope that we can move on from here.

As I said I have never had any deaths or abnormalities that could be attributed to anything let alone Panacur which has been widely tested in pregnancy in various species.

Yes, you have, several times :-(  I wonder why you have to keep repeating  this? 

> Yes, you have, several times :-(  I wonder why you have to keep repeating  this? 

Because I don't go back to the start and was unsure if it was this thread I had mentioned it on, as there was another specific worming one :).

Mind you with the amount of the stuff I have used over the years I ought to have shares in Panacur's makers, maybe they would give me a discount.

Yes.

The fact that nothing else could have caused it and the timing of the D.     My breed aren't known for having sensitive tums in general, and my dogs bear this out.

Friends with other breeds have also had the same reaction to Drontal whenever they worm their dogs. and one vomits quite a lot a few hours afterwards as well.   They take it as a 'normal' reaction to the wormer.   I prefer not to put my dogs/pups through that if it's avoidable.

Friends with other breeds have also had the same reaction to Drontal whenever they worm their dogs. and one vomits quite a lot a few hours afterwards as well.   They take it as a 'normal' reaction to the wormer.   I prefer not to put my dogs/pups through that if it's avoidable.
Quote selected text

Interesting, no-one that I know or who has contributed to the discussions on wormers has mentioned a problem with Drontal, whereas lots have had far more serious problems with Panacur.  I haven't had a 'reaction' in pups to Drontal, but I have had a pup with eye problem and people I know and more have lost litters, yet you seem prepared to lose a litter but not for a pup to be sick (which no one I know has had happen) - personally I'd prefer a live dog.  However, that's my last word on this topic as you seem to be keen to keep repeating ad nauseum the fact that Drontal makes pups sick and you haven't had a problem with Panacur.  People reading the thread can make their own minds up, you apparently have yours very set :-(

Now now we all have our own preferences and experiences and as such can share them. Ideas seem to be set on both sides perhaps ????

>you seem prepared to lose a litter but not for a pup to be sick

Now where does this come from?

That's some accusation!

Is it aimed only at myself or are you including anyone else who dares to use Panacur and has had no problems?

At the end of the day, we have to use what suits our own dogs and our experience.   No one drug is the answer.

> Is it aimed only at myself or are you including anyone else who dares to use Panacur and has had no problems?
>
>

Don't think it's just you Dill.  Aimed at me as well, yet I am not saying that I have had no problems just to be awkward, I was stating fact.  In fairness, it's not as if I've only ever used it on one or two dogs/bitches/pups.  I have genuinely used it lots and lots and lots.  That doesn't mean that I am trying to criticise someone that uses different drugs.

It's not just you - but I've already apologised if I caused any unintended offence, and wish I hadn't said what I use now!  But exchanging knowledge/experiences etc is what this forum is about.

>It's not just you - but I've already apologised if I caused any unintended offence, and wish I hadn't said what I use now!

Having read and re-read your post I still fail to see how you could possibly have caused any offence

The more information we have about these drugs the better IMHO so why not post?  If you have had no problems how is that being awkward?  

Those who want to take offence will, whether it is meant or not ;)

Er excuse me but I got fed up of saying what experiences people had had to be shouted down which wasn't very nice. In fact if you add up the number of times on this thread you'll see why I no longer respond to two of the contributers, who keep saying the same thing and blaming other people for losing their pups, and admit to not actually reading the threads.

Yes this is an exchange of information not just to steam roller over other peoples views please!  Stating experience and fact is great - trying to do down other people is in my opinion not nice.  If it were just a case of simply letting people know our experiences then that would be fine - unfortunately it doesn't seem to be on here. There I said I was leaving it, but so irritated that I've had to respond... I haven't read the others threads as I'm sure they would annoy me much more.

I have just wormed my 9 puppies at 6.5 weeks with Drontal (this is the 3rd time, they were done at 2.5 and 4.5 weeks) and I have had no problems whatsover ? I have used Drontal on all my litters so far (large litters) and all the puppies are fine. Never used Panacur on puppies only on Pregnat bitch as this is what the vet advised many years ago and it works for me :-)

You said ...  "Stating experience and fact is great - trying to do down other people is in my opinion not nice."   I totally agree

You also said "I haven't had a 'reaction' in pups to Drontal, but I have had a pup with eye problem and people I know and more have lost litters, yet you seem prepared to lose a litter but not for a pup to be sick (which no one I know has had happen) - personally I'd prefer a live dog."

No-one has shouted you down, they simply stated their own experiences.

You, on the other hand have made a personal attack which is quite unjustified.

Ok I think this thread has gone far enough now, especially as we have other threads going on the subject of worming.