Hi All
I live in a small terraced house in the middle of the city, with a garden 15ft by 70ft. My neighbours have four dogs outside in pens (two appeared about a month ago, the others had been there for a few years), which are breeze blocks with wire on top so they can see out. Two of the dogs are let out into the yard, but the other two are kept in their pen all day except when they're being cleaned out. My neighbours do try to keep them quiet by going out and 'shhing' if they go on too long, but it's pretty ineffective as a long term solution. I have only very rarely seen any of them being taken for a walk. The dogs are well fed and cleaned out every day.

I've never been happy about the situation but I've put up with it and maintained friendly terms because we own our houses and we have to get on.

Now my neighbours are starting to breed from the two females, just when I want to sell my house. They are planning to build a kennel for them to have puppies in, but I am faced with the prospect of, at a guess, up to 16 dogs next door if both females breed at once, and they can't immediately find homes for them

I'd like your breeders' eye perspective on this please. Is it fair on the neighbours to be breeding dogs and keeping them outside in the middle of the city? In my view, it's not fair on me or the dogs. What do you think and do you have any suggestions of how I can deal with this situation without causing upset?

Horrible situation isn't it, when we see dogs being cared for in a way which we never would.

Well, in only having 2 potential bitches to breed with she doesn't need a council license, so no point in contacting them.

The RSPCA will not be bothered as the dogs all have food, water and shelter, unless the dogs become obese due to lack of exercise only then may they intervene.

If the dogs become very noisy, you have the potential to complain about that to your council.

But, the best option is the TAX MAN she needs to declare any earnings made for potential taxing.

Probably the only way to get her, if you have other neighbours she may not think it was you who contacted them, but it is the only way to put people like this out of business, is she likely to do her breeds health tests before breeding? Does she know all the pitfalls of risk to her bitches, cost of cesarians, how to care for the pups, kind of know I'm probably talking to myself and you to yourself, she'll go ahead regardless no doubt. :-(

Feel for you, must be very upsetting to watch all this.

Well, in only having 2 potential bitches to breed with she doesn't need a council license, so no point in contacting them.


Not strictly true.  I had concerns about some puppies in a far from ideal environment and after finding no-one else to help, phoned the local Dog Warden.  They were very helpful and said they would pay a visit and try and get her signed up as a  Licensed Breeder - apparently you don't just have to breed x amount of litters per year.  Obviously I do not know the outcome but hopefully just a visit will let her know people are not happy with what she's doing and improve her standards etc.

Not strictly true.  I had concerns about some puppies in a far from ideal environment and after finding no-one else to help, phoned the local Dog Warden.  They were very helpful and said they would pay a visit and try and get her signed up as a  Licensed Breeder - apparently you don't just have to breed x amount of litters per year.

It depends on the council. I checked with DEFRA and THEIR national rule is no more than 4 litters per year, but individual councils can impose their own rules. Most do not. Of course, anyone can apply for a license whether they breed a lot or not, but DEFRA's rule is if you breed more than 4 litters/year you HAVE to.

But, the best option is the TAX MAN she needs to declare any earnings made for potential taxing.


Any idea how you do this? There is somebody I want to put a stop to. I can't put too many details here in case she reads it (she just might as some people read and never post) and the only way I can think of is via the tax office. This person REALLY needs stopping as they are producing potentially very dangerous dogs that are being sold to the wrong people, also running a business from home which she may or may not have permission for.

There is nothing to say though that there will be two litters of pups a year,a dn if you contact the tax office on two litters if they claim the expenses involved they would more than likely not earn enough for tax purposes, especially if one or both don't work.

It may not be the way many of us would choose to breed (though many people do and there is nothing wrong with outside kennel facilities, the dogs are happy if they are clean well fed and have some stimulation. The latter is the main thing lacking from a welfare point of view, but plenty of the nations Pet dogs are the same rarely getting walked etc, and I don't see lots of prosecutions under the Animal Welfare Act.

Your only real issue can be excessive noise, (prolonged periods of barking and at antisocial hours) as you say they keep things clean.

I am in a city, with 25 x 60 foot garden, 5 adult dogs and breed a litter on average once a e, though there have been two occasions where I have had two close together and then nothing for 18 months or more).

My pups start going outside at about a month old and potentially will be spending a lot of their time outside for month to two (depending on when they get homed).  I have 3 here at present coming up for 11 weeks (one my own and two others going in a few days).

My next door neighbour had a 'word' with me a few weeks back when the noise of them playing when let out first thing (which unfortunately with pups is as early as 5-6am, screaming to go out to be clean) was disturbing them as due to the weather they Had their bedroom windows open, pups can be noisy playing tag etc, even if they drop after about 15 minutes.

This means I now keep them in (screaming or not) until 8am, and was able to confirm that the noise of this did not travel to them from the kitchen where the puppy pen is.

Because of living in a city suburb with close neighbours, even though I have a double kennel and run (useful when pups are small enough to get through any crack), some of my dogs only use it as a bedroom, and my dogs are never left outdoors when I am not home, though the backdoor is left open when I am in when weather is good and everyone is quiet.

Any barking (neighbours teasing cat etc) and they are take straight indoors, if I go out they are confined to the kitchen with radio on, to minimise outside stimulus, hence inclination to bark.

Just looked on the HMRC website and found this reporting form;- https://online.hmrc.gov.uk/shortforms/form/TEH_IRF?dept-name=TEH&sub-dept-name=&location=39&origin=http://www.hmrc.gov.uk 

Good luck.  I've always heard that Dog Breeders are almost exempt due to their high costs - how true this is I have no idea.

Thanks for that! The person I am interested in reporting can't have very high costs as no health tests are done (easy to check with KC), and there is an income that has nothing to do with breeding but which most likely is not taxed or declared.

Personally I don't think the tax man would be interested - most hobby breeders would not make enough money once expenses are taken into account to pay any tax.

This does not sound to me like a potential puppy farmer to be honest- I've known many an exhibitor start off breeding in just this way ( buying in a dog or two to show  first of all  then once they are more experienced they buy in a good bitch and begin to breed for themselves )  however the biggest mistake here is that the dogs are kept permanently outside in what sounds like a very built up area - unless you can guarantee that the  dogs will NOT be noisy this strikes me as unfair to the neighbours .

A litter of pups will be VERY noisy if they are kept outside all the time - (especially at feeding and play times ) plus in my opinion they would be less well socialised - why not ask them riound for a cup of tea and explain your concerns - and ask that they keep their dog indoors rather than outside in kennels .

It's fine to have kennelled dogs if you live out in the sticks with no-one to worry about but this scenario is just a recipe for problems  for both neighbours involved.

Yvonne

Do these people work full/part time?  Does one work and one not?  If there is any possibilty that one/both of them are on any means tested benefits then the Dept. for Work & Pensions would be interested in any income ie puppy money coming into the household.  This link takes you to the directgov info about how to report suspected fraud (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/BenefitsTaxCreditsAndOtherSupport/BenefitFraud/DG_10014876).  It won't be top of their list of priorities (I used to be a fraud investigator) but they would get round to looking at it in time.

I agree Yvonne.

There are loads of dog breeders who start off this way and over the last 30 years I have been astounded at how many dogs can be crammed into tiny gardens/houses.

I have lost count of the times Ive been shocked when turning up for a stud only to find the dogs are kept in a 'postage stamp' garden.

The good news for the OP is that many of these people move out to the sticks when it all gets too much.

most hobby breeders would not make enough money once expenses are taken into account to pay any tax.

Ahh, but if they are not prepared for the tax man, they will not have proof of expenses and quite likely as already said will not have health tests done etc, so all will just show as profit and income, breeds can bring in anything from £400-£2,500 each pup, with two bitches they can well be in the tax bracket, I would report them and see where it leads, responsible hobby breeders have a lot of expenses, those having a go, usually are not prepared or have not spent much in the care of their dogs, so the tax man can claim a nice amount of that money. :-)

My concern here is that people are possibly assuming that the neighbours are tax dodgers. If you report them, they are likely to guess it is a neighbour who has done so and it could make life very difficult for you. Even if they have nothing to hide they will not appreciate you reporting them and the stress that may cause them. It is easy to say if they have nothing to hide why should it bother them, but in reality it could well be an upsetting experience.  Ideally they should be living in rural or semi rural location without immediate neighbours, I agree with that. If the dogs all look well cared for and appear happy and aren't making a real nuisance of themselves, I don't really understand your concerns.  Edited to say : we always declare any profit made after our expenses (never much) for tax credit purposes just to cover ourselves but in reality, they are never interested and it has no bearing on any payments we may receive. I suppose it depends on litter size/price of pups/cost of health testing etc though ... ie if it is British Bulldogs we are talking here, I think the tax man/tax credit office would be very interested !!!!

Did she have the dogs when you brought the house? Why do the dogs bark? I wish breeding did make a lot of money. From vets bills to food, health tests, cleaning materials, grooming materials and a lot more. Unless you are a puppy farm, very few breeders make any money worth telling the tax man about. It would cost them more in stationary.
My dogs do bark we back on to a park, With a gully at the back were children scream and shout during the holidays. It starts all the dogs of in the area. My neighbour reported us, for our dogs barking at their cat they required as their daughter parades it up and down the fence, Well, I never knew a cat could make so much noise waiting to be let in at 6oclock every morning. Also running over our conservatory roof. You can hear it all over our house. Well what goes around came around. The dogs were going mad at 8 30pm. one evening, so I brought them in. 2 days after the CID came to all the houses as 2 houses in the block had been burgled. To ask if we had seen any thing, or heard anythink. I told them yes! the dogs were going mad about 8.30pm,  I brought them in because of complaints. His answer was, "that was about the time, they happened" Also his comment was "What do you have dogs for!!" If they hadn't complained, I would have checked out what they were barking at. It may have saved them a lot of stress. The land they have is not important, the quality of care is!

quite likely as already said will not have health tests done etc

Again I think we are jumping to conclusions - after all the OP does say that the dogs are well looked after and the kennels are kept clean etc- it does'nt sound to me as if they are uncaring - why do you thik they would breed without doing any health tests ? .

Lets face it we all know how 'addictive' being involved with dogs can be - most of those on the 'outside'  would think I was mad as a box of frogs to keep 6 large hairy dogs ( with a litter imminent as well ! )  and to spend my social life, my money and my leisure time travelling to dog shows up and down the country in the vague hope of winning a piece of green edged card !! - and it's all too easy if everyone you know is also as involved as you are to forget that most non dog  folk simply don't understand why we would fill our homes up with dogs like this....and they have a right to get annoyed if our way of life affects their  home too.

I'm afraid that as far as I'm concerned, if you live in the middle of a town, then keeping dogs in kennels all the time is just a big no no - do what we did - move out to the Lincolnshire  Fens - now thats doggy paradise !!

Yvonne

Again I think we are jumping to conclusions - after all the OP does say that the dogs are well looked after and the kennels are kept clean etc- it does'nt sound to me as if they are uncaring - why do you thik they would breed without doing any health tests ?

It's possible people are getting the messages in this thread mixed up as I mentioned somebody I want to report to try to stop her and with her I KNOW she has not done any health tests as I have checked.

Oops - sorry Marianne - it's waiting for these pups to arrive that's scarmbled my brain !! - I hope the person you are referring to is not in our breed ?

Yvonne

Fingers crossed for the pups Yvonne. :) Unfortunately it is our breed. :( Can't put details here.

"From vets bills to food, health tests, cleaning materials, grooming materials and a lot more. Unless you are a puppy farm, very few breeders make any money worth telling the tax man about. It would cost them more in stationary"

Absolutely agree with the above comment.  I can't believe how quick some people on here have been to just sweepingly say "report them", without having any information  in front of them whatsoever, that goes anywhere near to suggest they are evading tax !!!!

Certainly, in my breed, you would have to churn out litters, with no health testing or anything to make a decent amount of money !
I speak as someone who has one litter per year (rarely two), has a two week old litter of 3 pups (2 died a couple of days after they were whelped - they did spend a Sunday - out of hours - afternoon at the vets - I knew it was futile but vet wanted to try)....who were born via emergency c-section - out of hours too, vast amounts of money spent on health testing and all the other things that responsible breeders pay out for in preparation for a litter, never mind the stud fee !  Also recently spent a large sum of money on health testing another bitch of mine, who didn't take and whom I may not get a chance to breed from again ... I am not exactly quids in LOL.

I'd like your breeders' eye perspective on this please. Is it fair on the neighbours to be breeding dogs and keeping them outside in the middle of the city? In my view, it's not fair on me or the dogs. What do you think and do you have any suggestions of how I can deal with this situation without causing upset?

I live in town as well though have actually got green space around me but do have neigbours about 40 ft away on one side and a semi attached on the other. I have 3 lage breed dogs and yes they do bark on occasion. I am home most of the day and the doors are open. If they start to bark I Immediatly go to investigate and either call them in or they settle. Rarely do they bark for more than 30 seconds or so. If I am out they are locked indoors. I have an occasional litter and they have a big pen in the garden and playtimes/food times can be quite noisy but my neigbours understand it is only short term and love to come and play with the pups anyway. So From my point of view it is possible to breed in an urban environment, however I do not feel it right to have kenneled dogs in such close proximity to neigbours as they do make more noise. I assume they are in the pens even if the owners are out so nothing to stop the barking then.
Maybe if the neigbour is approachable you could have a chat and just explain that the dogs are noisy. Maybe she does not know they are barking if she is out. I assume you talk to her or you would not know she is planning to breed. Voice your concerns over noise/smell etc.. I think if she goes ahead you will just have to see how it goes and if it is unbearable then the environmental officer from the council is the best one to give you advice and maybe stop the intrusion into you life.
As for it being fair on the dogs...well if as you say they are not walked but are kept well fed and clean then in my opinion no it's not fair on them. They need some stimulation.  If they are walked regularly, and someone spends some time with them other than just for feeding/cleaning, then it is ok. Maybe not perfect but lots of dogs live happily in kennel environments. Those that do are still very much part of the family.
As for the breeding side. well non of us know the facts behimd it. They may well be health tested...are they pure bred? are they shown? worked? or are they just going to be another form of "Income" to the owners.
Aileen

I can't believe how quick some people on here have been to just sweepingly say "report them", without having any information  in front of them whatsoever, that goes anywhere near to suggest they are evading tax !!!!

Because that isn't the point at all. Now whether the original poster's scenario is one for concern or not I'd say is unclear (I remember moving here in the 80s and a couple of friends came to stay with me a few months later. One was a dog breeder and she went to visit a VERY wellknown breeder who had won BIS at Crufts. She came back and told me "She lived in a house just like yours, with neighbours everywhere!" I lived in a terraced house in a suburb.), but the point made is that where you cannot stop somebody irresponsible from breeding irresponsibly by contacting the RSPCA or similar, then going the tax office route may just shake such a breeder up enough to think twice in future.

Just wanted to add, re the barking scenario. I have 5 cavaliers, who all live in as house pets but it is my neighbours two terrier type dogs (patterdales - a non KC recognised breed) who will goad my girls at every opportunity by barking aggressively as soon as they get wind of my girls being out. They are purely pets, no breeding going on, but whilst they do live in, they are far more of a nuisance than mine by a long mile !!!!

This is a difficult one.
I have had complaints from my neighbours about my dogs barking. And the environmental health told me that between 7am and 11pm , 20 mins barking followed by 5 mins silence, 20 min , 5 min etc was acceptanble. That would drive me crazy!
Anyone should be allowed a certain amount of privacy and reporting someone without any knowledge of them is a little unfair. If they had 2 jack russels in the lounge who had puppies no one would take a second thought!
I registered as self employed with my dogs just because I knew my neighbours would report me. They assumed I was making a killing. But when I submitted last years accounts the accountant suggested that I just close the business down as I am making a loss!
We all know some litters make us money but most dont. For me spending money on food and vet bills just comes out of my husbands monthly income so we dont miss it and it is nice when a full litter of puppies bring in some money. It wasnt until I actually did accounts that I realised how much I spend on the dogs, so the money at the end of the litter was almost worthless!! But I enjoy it so it doesnt matter.
If the council did care they would probably give them a licence anyway from what you have said.
I would talk to them, tell them how you feel (you are neighbours after all) and see how it goes.
My stupid husband is always telling the dogs to shut up but it makes me laugh because he makes more noise than they do!
I have puppies outside in the summer and to be fair they arent too noisey or should I say their little voices dont carry too far I can hear them in the back garden but cant really if I go into the side garden. And puppies do spend the majority of their time asleep!
Good luck but please consider these people too they are probably doing nothing wrong and maybe once they have had a litter they will see what hard work and commitment it is so never do it again.
My poor kids hardly go anywhere because of the puppies and my husband is crawling the walls because we have zero social life due to puppies. I darent even have a drink at home for fear of a hangover and being unable to cope with the pups lol