If you visited a breeder with your (well behaved) child, and the mother of the pups growled at the child, would you think this was just protectiveness from a bitch who doesn't live with children so sees them as a threat to her puppies? Or would it make you worry about her temperament and therefore also the temperament of the pups? Otherwise both mother and puppies seem v sociable.

It would depend on the circumstances and the age of the litter.

In my breed I certainly would expect mine to be polite if not delighted with children away from the pups at any age.

I no longer have young children at home, but mine love children, the occasional visit from neighbours children when we have puppies and of course being well socialised dogs regularly going out and about and to shows they do meet children, as all dogs should.

So if she growled at your child when away from the pups this would concern me.

If she growled at the child while in the same room as the litter or if the child was near them then I would think this quite normal for may breeds.  With my won I have never known mien be anything but delighted to show their pups off to all and sundry and only react slightly concerned if strangers picked them up if before weaning age.

I had a bitch that didn't like children.  She would actively avoid children and would 'grumble' if cornered.  Not aggressively but just letting everyone know she wasn't happy.  We then went on to have 4 kids and she was wonderful with them.  It was just lack of understanding not aggression.
Maybe this girl is just not used to children?  Also, my bitches worry more about kids round their pups than adults.
Even at 6 weeks, my bitch was still concerned with visiting children.  So I don't think I would be worried unless it was an aggressive growl straight at him.

What about other things around the breeder did everthing point to good reputable breeder, where there any other adult dogs there how were they ? What did the breeder say ?
Also are u visiting any other litters so you could compare the behaviours.
- I don't breed so am not qualified to say anything from a breeders angle but was thinking what I would be weighing up. Also as said breeds do vary in how they behave and even well behaved children can put some dogs on edge.

You don't say how old the child is, but the only thing I can add to what others have said is that children do move very differently to adults, that may have a bearing on it, specially if the pups are still very young and mum is protective.

I would imagine that the mother of the puppies was just doing her job in protecting her pups? Where there any children living in the house where mum and pups where?

Both times times that i have gone to look at puppies, they have already been children lving in the house, so they where used to them.
The lastest puppy, both his mum and dad lived within the house and they where both madly friendly wether thepups where around or not. But like i said they had kids from babies up to a 10 year old so they where very used to the movements and ways of a children.

I dont think its cause for concern, its natural for dogs to proctect their young.

Sorry - I didn't give much info in the original question as I was worried the breeder might come onto the forum and read it, but as I've been up all night worrying I may as well say more. I didn't visit the litter with a child. When I visited alone, the mum was very friendly and laid back. The pups are over 5 weeks and seemed very confident and outgoing and the other dogs in the house were v friendly to me. There are no children living there. The breeder did mention that the dam wasn't used to children and could bark at children if they approached her when out, but would calm down quickly and let them throw a ball etc. This was my only slight worry, but I was really impressed with the litter and the way the puppies were being raised.

However, the next visitors had a child with them and the breeder has told me the dam and her mother both barked and growled at the child. She was taken aback by this so it clearly isn't normal behaviour for them and must have been down to protectiveness. I completely agree with other posters that it wasn't evidence of temperament problems....that was worded badly.......it'll be down to lack of socialisation with kids......I suppose what I'm worried about is the effect on the puppies of lack of socialisation with children at the breeders home and mum's unhappiness when children visit.

I'm in a tricky situation regarding children. I don't have any, so my dog won't be living with any. However, the dog will come into contact with lots of children every day as I live in an area packed full of young families. I'll also have friends and family visiting who have young children. Despite my best attempts at socialisation, my last dog was awful with them, and I later found out her mother was too. I'm going to socialize the next one like crazy, but I'm worried I'm repeating past mistakes already if I choose from a litter which hasn't been brought up with children in the house.

Not sure if this is just a huge overreaction on my part though. The pup I was going to get seemed v confident, so would hopefully be fine with exposure to children from the time I got her home.

It's not a guarding breed - it's one known to be quite soft, but reserved.

Tricky one I think.

You have heard that some posters have had growly dogs which 'came around' to their own kids in the fullness of time.

Others suggest thats its acceptable for mothers of 5 week old pups to still be guarding them.

You are 'in the moment' with this litter, you are seeing just a snapshot of behaviour from which to base a lifetime with this dog.

I would be rather dubious of this litter I think. I own one breed which can be a little worried with children if they are not used to them - yet mine are besotted with kids despite never coming into contact with any in our family.

If it were the only litter to choose from, then you may have a resonable chance to socialise early and well -in an effort to avoid your pup from sharing these fearful traits - but it may be less of a risk getting a puppy who's parents dont share this natural aversion to small people.

It is always difficult to judge from a third party report as you really need to see the attitude of the child, was it noisy, waving its arms screaming or crying, did it run towards the pups and so on.

IMO a young pup taken into a home with children will soon see them as play mates as long as the children are supervised and taught how to deal with the pup.

Thanks for your replies everyone.

Tooolz, you've summed up the situation and my fears well. This risk is probably a slight risk, and if I hadn't had a bad experience before I'd probably be willing to accept it, but now I'm aware of the risk it's preying on my mind.

Nova, I agree that a puppy from this litter who comes into a home with kids will be fine. The basic temperament of the dam was great and they are a breed that do very well with children. If I had children of my own I wouldn't be worried as the socialisation the pup would get in the home would be fine. But I don't have children. The socialisation the pup will get will be with children we meet out and about, visiting children and puppy classes. That's not the same as living with children 24/7.

The family who visited weren't put off, and I wouldn't be either if I knew I had children at home to help raise the pup.

I just have an endless stream of children outside the house to contend with if the pup develops fear issues.

> But I don't have children. The socialisation the pup will get will be with children we meet out and about, visiting children and puppy classes. That's not the same as living with children 24/7.
>
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I no longer have children living at home, mine are 20 and 23, so in fact my dogs who adore children from the oldest to youngest have not been around anything resembling a young child for 13 years so all the current ones.

In fact it may be a breed dependent trait (breeds with more guarding or reactive, herding etc  traits may be less good) as friends who live in the country so rarely get to see people on a daily basis let alone children find their dogs love kids when they have the opportunity to be in contact with them.

Do you have any other litters you can visit to get an idea of other mums ? I would try to as this is obviously with good reason something that is going to worry you
My gsd is brilliant with children although he only sees visiting children mine are 18 and 21. I have no worries at all but what is interesting is he is still abit ott with little ones  from their prospective and being big that can be a problem. By contrast his sister who has been bought up with young children is calmer around little ones
My toy breed who has exactly the same socialisation is slightly nervous of the attention she recieves from children and deff prefers adults

Irrespective of how Mum is with children, is the breeder socialising her pups with children? That is going to make the difference. I don't have children, and my breeder friend's 'sacrificial' grandchildren are now teenagers, so with last year's litter I enlisted the help of neighbours with 'dogged' children and visitors to the litter ... even the vicar was enlisted - he was great ... came along with young children AND togged out in his motorcycle gear (on request! - no, not something I'm partial to ;-) but an appearance that I felt would be beneficial for the puppies). So you could ask the breeder what she's doing re child socialisation (this can now easily be done without Mum present with the pups if they're over 5 weeks).

The other thing, if you do have a pup from this litter, is to ensure that you socialise it well with children ... nice children who will do as you ask and who are used to dogs. You'll know some I am sure. Most people are willing to help out socialise pups :-)

Brainless - you're tempting me to switch breeds ;-)
Don't you think the lines within a breed can vary alot though? Are your friend's dogs's from the same lines? I learned (too late) last time that it wasn't the wrong breed that I chose last time, it was the ancestry and early rearing of the pup. This is a different - softer - breed than last time, which apparently doesn't have such variations in temperament, but I'm sure parentage must play a part.

Furriefriends, this isn't a very common breed so no other current litters that I know of. I think I'll try to talk to some other breeders, though it'll be awkward as a small breeder pool means they'll know each other.

Trialist - the pups aren't being socialised with children. The breeder was very open so volunteered that a neighbours child wanted to see the pups, but hasn't met them yet. She's not an experienced breeder, so probably hasn't appreciated the importance of this at this stage of development.
I will be doing alot of socialisation with the pup and children. Unfortunately though, my nieces and nephews and friends children aren't used to dogs, so it'll have to be very controlled.

I see your problem although you must think of yourself first it is difficult when people may know each other not to have things misinterpreted.  Wish. You could put the breed I am really intrigued

Of course the OP can put the breed down, it may be important and it's not advertising as it isn't their litter :-)

It wouldnt put me off the litter, but I would ask the breeder to socialise pups with children (and explain how to do this and how much would be required).

If the level of work needed meant the breeder didnt want to do it, THAT would put me off.

Thanks, theemx, I was thinking of doing that, so will do. The breeder has struck me as very committed to the welfare of her pups, so this will hopefully be the solution.

I haven't posted the breed because it'll be awkward to make my concerns public to people in the breed, as they'll readily identify the litter,  not due to advertising or anything.

> I haven't posted the breed because it'll be awkward to make my concerns public to people in the breed

Now that makes sense :-)

My pups now get visits from friends children but it certainly wouldn't; worry me if they didn't encounter them until they start going out at around 3 months.

As for lines, I haven't met any of my breed that showed aversion to children (though I have herd fo this with dogs that had been mistreated/teased by children), but then it is a numerically small breed so most dogs will have ancestors in common.

> I haven't posted the breed because it'll be awkward to make my concerns public

If you just say what the breeds purpose/group is so that main drives and traits can be ascertained that would help.  For example a sight hound, or a strong working terrier, HPR, or Flushing retrieving breed, or one that guards or herds.

For example the breed standard for my breed says

"Characteristics
A hardy hunting Spitz with a bold energetic disposition.

Temperament
Friendly, intelligent and independent without any sign of nervousness."

What does the standard for your breed say in this regard???

It's an hpr

There are one or two in this group that are a little reserved and would benefit from careful socialisation compared to the 'hale fellow, well met' breeds, the breed character should help you decide if they are a breed that is more sensitive and needs careful socialisation, or is the kind that is very adaptable and unfazed by anything new.

My first dog was from the former type, needing a lot of careful and ongoing socialisation to get a well balanced dog temperamentally, my current breed is the latter.

Hi Toon,
Just to add to what the others have said - if you are in any doubt then walk away. There are many more litters and many more pups so dont be swayed just by your heart.

Having a pup is a long term responsibility and I 9if you decide that one of this litter is the one for you, I hope you have already found a good early pup education group which will provide your pup with not only good social skills, but also provide you with the skills to deal with the puppy period and adlocecence using gentle, positive reinforcement methods of learning. Clicker training is a wonderful, quick learning tool which most pups respond to really well.

If you have the time you can also ensure that the pup is exposed to "well trained" kids so that each experience is a positive one.

I must say I have 8 rescues (all my kids are grown and flown the nest) and of the eight (all of whom I got as problem adocecents or adults) only one (the smallest / Parson Terrier) is not thrilled with kids, however even this is not a problem as the environment is easily managed. All the large breeds, gsd's bsd's and border collies are fine, but again, even though I did not have them from pups, all were gently accustomised to positive associations with kids from early on in our realtionships.

Good luck
Lou SA

> My toy breed who has exactly the same socialisation is slightly nervous of the attention she recieves from children and deff prefers adults

In agreement with this comment.  I don't have children, and I do go out of my way to socialise my pups with the tiny people.

However, kids will insist on picking up a pup - held away from the body, and whooshing them through the air.  Sorry, I don't know another way to explain.  And when I had visitors with 3 children, and their little Yorkie bitch, I was told, she won't allow you to pick her up.  It didn't take me long to work out why the bitch growled and snapped at the kids.  Here I blame the parents, as the kids should never have been allowed to do this with the bitch when she arrived as a pup. 

I did ask the youngest how she would feel if a giant bent down and whooshed her through the air very fast.  She said she would be frightened.  I can see where toy breeds can get their hesitance with some children.  But the youngster I have had visiting today gave me no concerns at all.  She had been brought up with dogs, and had been taught how to handle them.  I am amazed how many adults, getting a pup for the first time, have no idea how to handle a pup - so how can they teach a child what's right?

My Collies are totally different with kids - they don't have the same fear of being whipped through the air by a child.  :-)

Toon, you totally described the behaviour of my bitch but it was only through lack of socialisation with kids, not a bad temprement trait.  As soon as we had kids and she was around them, she became the best.  I went from actively avoiding kids with her as she would bark and raise her hackles to trusting her with my babies lifes.  100%.
I would take this pup without worrying and I would then do what I always do with a pup and hang about outside the school at home time with plenty of treats!!

damn good idea!

Good point jean although I have avoided that happening with Mia. I still think people are apt to pick them up and treat  them as stuffed toys at times grrrr !
Oh yes the school gate and treats that will be me in a few weeks time just before the school holidays.
Maybe Toon another visit to see how things are now a week has gone by would be helpful Mum may feel a little more comfortable and help put to rest your fears

Just a word of warning - be careful about socialising around schools. I took my BSD pup just alongside the school, and all the kids came rushing towards her (behind a fence!) and she was scared, no wonder! So although in theory it is a very good idea, do be careful. Remember, socialising must be pleasant, not turn into a sort of flooding scenario... if you see what I mean :)

I was able to remedy the scare by just moving away to give much more distance and using lots of food treats very generously. She was fine in the end, and now loves children, but it just shows how careful one has to be...

Also lots of patting over the head etc can be disturbing... so make sure you are in control!!

Lindsay
x

Thanks for that Lindsay I understand what you mean. I teach in a centre and am hoping that I can bring pup into meet the studnets at some point if the head agrees but you are quite right it needs to be done carefully dont want to give the pup the wrong message.
I think it would do both students and pup good if done properly it would be nice to introduce them to something other than "pits" which all our students seem to claim to have , hurmph !!

I wouldn't let this put me off a litter in the slightest :)

My pups have all mainly come from a farming environment where there just isn't often the dedication to socialisation of pups to various experiences. In fact, many shepherds wouldn't touch a puppy from such a household as they prefer their dogs to come "blank canvas" and with no "undesirable characterstics" (often this can even mean a sociable pup!). Not that I endorse this thinking...

Anyway, none of my dogs were socialised with children and, all bar one, adore children and see them as tennis ball launchers :) The one dog who loathes children was the very one who I attempted to socialise with children when he was 10 weeks old. All was going well until the child got slightly over excited and let out a high pitched scream and scooped the puppy into her lap. Enter one dog with a lifelong fear of children!! He will always growl and slouch off when a child visits but this isn't indicitive of his temperament - he is simply fearful of children.

If all else said "yes" then I would have no concerns about the puppy. However, listen to your gut feeling also. If that's saying no....it's another story :)