So as not to hijack the WELKS thread I thought I would open a new one.
Taking Welks as an example. The order of judging puts Gordon setters on after Goldies.  There are 300 Golden entries, at 3 mins per dogs that would take 15 hours to judge. Obviously there will be abcentees and 3 mins is a bit extra to what is needed but at 2 mins per dog thats still 10 hours....Then to put gordons on after with 104 entries...the mind boggles.
Even with us in Berns we follow Danes with 125 entries...2 mins per dog = 4 hours then 67 Berns.
I realise some breeds have to be 2nd but hate the fact that I sometimes have have to stand around for hours, especially with pups. The show societies reserve the right to change rings without notice so in reality we should be there at the start just to be certain of not missing classes. Why is it not possible to give a "not before" time. At least then we could arrive later.
In this day and age it is not acceptable to expect everyone to be sat at a bench with thier dogs for a whole day.
With show entries falling and times changing is it not time shows caught up. Gone are the days when  shows were predominantly large kennels with kennel maids who took the dogs and stayed with them on benches, bringing the correct  dog to the ring for the owner to show one at a time. Lots of people like myself are alone. I will not leave dogs unattended on benches as todays society is not safe, dogs may be stolen, doped, or knobbled in some way, JP is allowed to roam the benching areas and unruly children are left to antagonize dogs.
I think it is time exhibitors were given a little more consideration, afer all the money comes from us not the spectators. A lot of shows not have free entry for spectators in order to get round the docking ban so please keep benching areas public free and let them stand round the rings to watch. Give us a reasonable estimate of time in rings so we can arrive to suit. Without exhibitors there would be no shows...

Taking Welks as an example. The order of judging puts Gordon setters on after Goldies.  There are 300 Golden entries, at 3 mins per dogs that would take 15 hours to judge. Obviously there will be abcentees and 3 mins is a bit extra to what is needed but at 2 mins per dog thats still 10 hours....

I think you've got that wrong -surely Goldens will have TWO rings as they have two judges?

Goldens will have 2 judges, 1 for each sex as there is over 250 dogs!

>I think you've got that wrong -surely Goldens will have TWO rings as they have two judges?

Yes, from what I can see: Dogs are judged from 9am in rings 5/6 followed by Gordons, Bitches are judged from 10am in rings 7/8

Still leaves Gordon exhibitors a bit in the dark as although you can look up total Golden entries you don't know how many are dogs (although presumably you could have a guestimate...)

We are on last on Saturday, after two other breeds, but at least the middle breed only have 8 entered :)

You are quite right but IMO that does not really change things...Taking an even split, that will still leave Gordons following aprox 10 hours of Golden judging... and no indication as to a time. Lets say the judge is fast, giving 1 min to each dog...not long for your £24 ... with CC's and BOB BP etc... Gordons will not be in the ring before 1pm (Est) so why not state this on the judging order. Why expect them to arrive at 9.30 am and stand around for hours, just in case they change the ring. Even 12 noon is better. If you plan to arrive at 12, after reading the info sent and find they have put you in another ring at an earlir time and you have missed a class, it is your fault. Not fair.
Aileen

I and several others in my breed have asked various show societies why they insist time after time of putting us 2nd in the ring after over 100 + dogs of another breed when we average 35 - 40 entries.  As you say it would make sense to get the low numbers out of the way first.  We had a to wait till gone 3.00pm not long ago by that time the judge had taken their time through 115 of the first breed then rushed through us to make sure it was finished for the group.  We felt short changed as we have done on previous occassions.

It is annoying especially when you wait for hours at shows (Leeds and Southern C are always guilty) to be 2nd in the ring when there are empty rings within spitting distance. 

Maybe letters to the dog press will force some societies to listen (well one can live in hope).

>not be in the ring before 1pm (Est)

Yes I much prefer this way of doing things.  I really hate the waiting around, I can't relax til I've been in and I get nervous about start times in case I miss it, particulalry with a male puppy. 

It should be perfectly feasible for show societies to split the day with more accurate 'not before' times.  I would imagine it ought to make their lives a bit easier on the day too

At lka last year we did not get in the ring till 2 30 by which point the judge kept being hurried along and our bob winner was rushed straight down there she didnt even get chance to take him the toilet so he left qcnice present in the group ring, she was not impressed.

I and several others in my breed have asked various show societies why they insist time after time of putting us 2nd in the ring after over 100 + dogs of another breed when we average 35 - 40 entries.  As you say it would make sense to get the low numbers out of the way first.

I don't know if that is the case here, but KC rules say breeds with tickets on offer at the show must be judged before any breeds without in the ring.

You are quite right but IMO that does not really change things...Taking an even split, that will still leave Gordons following aprox 10 hours of Golden judging... and no indication as to a time.

I DO agree that a lot of the time, ring allocation and order of judging does not make sense. It would be easier if all breeds second in the ring had a "not judged before" time. WELKS has not got the best of reputations here -last year the order was changed without people being told. Well the announcement was made over the speakers at the show when the show opened, so those that believed they had a breed before them in the ring and therefore arrived later did miss their judging. Been there, done it, got the t-shirt. Before we had tickets in Malinois it was very rare indeed for us to be in the ring before 2 pm, often it was 4 pm. Then there was that infamous Crufts 2003 when all four BSDs shared the same ring and Malis were last. The judging finished at 9 pm. During the bitch judging, when my bitch was in the ring at 8.10 pm the lights went off above the ring as the NEC started to close down. We all had to be escorted out by security guards after BOB and of course the BOB was hours late for the group. So I know the problem. Yet even when judging is stated as "Not before 1 pm" or similar, it then usually states "Catalogues not collected before 11 am will be resold" and so you have to be there early anyway.....

However, I think it's an impossible assumption to make that the Golden judging of one sex should take ten hours! 300 is not an unusual entry, in fact there are shows with double that, so the judges are well used to the large numbers. If it took ten hours, it would not finish until 7 pm and hence the breed would miss the group at pretty much every show, always, and that simply does not happen -not even at Crufts which frequently has an entry of 5-600.

> I don't know if that is the case here, but KC rules say breeds with tickets on offer at the show must be judged before any breeds without in the ring.

Yes our breed has tickets.  But then you see the same society using one ring for breeds with no tickets at all.

Birmingham national has 'not before times' .  We are not before 1.30, so I guess it will be a long day.  We often get entries over 40 and are still always late in the ring, rare breeds are just an extra that no one really cares about :(

rare breeds are just an extra that no one really cares about :-(

That's true -but treasure it! Once you get CC status you also get pot hunters only in it to win! It does change things a fair bit.

Just wanna say WOW that is a lot of dogs!  Our highest entry is usually 20 dogs (in any breed!) I would love to see a show with that many entries!!!! 

Have an import register breed, many a time we weren't in until 4pm and a number of times the groups were being called in whilst we were still nbeing judged!

Rare Breeds, NSC, Import Reg....We always seem to be the forgotten few....At Manchester Rare breeds didn`t finish until 6.50pm! Everyone had gone home including security!!

> Just wanna say WOW that is a lot of dogs!  Our highest entry is usually 20 dogs (in any breed!) I would love to see a show with that many entries!!!! 

Even in my numerically small breed an entry of 20 would be considered very low for a championship show where CC's are available to the breed.

We get better entries than that at some of our popular championship shows that don't have CC's for the breed.

The idea in the UK w(which works because we are a small country) is to ration CC's based on breed popularity at shows to pre determined shows, thereby concentrating the competition.

My breed is small in number so only has 19 shows at which a CC can be won (two fo those being breed club shows). 

A breed like Goldens have a lot more opportunities to try for the CC.

Also the CC goes to the BEST OF SEX, not the the best non champion.

> Also the CC goes to the BEST OF SEX, not the the best non champion.

So does it go to the winners dog and winners bitch?  And then a CC for best of breed? 

We get points towards championships based on number of dogs beat.  And they are only awarded for Winners Dog, Winners Bitch, Best of Winners, Best of Opposite Sex, and Best of Breed.  So say you are in the Open Bitch class, and you beat one bitch for winners bitch.  You get one point.  If you beat the Winners Dog, and there were two dogs entered, you get two points more.  Bringing your total to 3.  If you then take Best of Breed and there were more than 6 dogs entered you get 3 points total. 

2 dogs entered = 1 point
3-5 entered = 2 points
6-9 entered 3 points
9-13 = 4 points
13+ = 5 points

You need 10 points to get a Championship here in Canada, with one of them having to be at least a 2 point win.  You also have to have three judges award your dog points.  So If you beat 13+ dogs in two shows, you have 10 points, but most likely not enough judges so you arent a champion yet.  You need that third judge. 

So does it go to the winners dog and winners bitch?  And then a CC for best of breed?

We get points towards championships based on number of dogs beat.

No, the best of all the male dogs in the breed gets a CC, and the best of all the bitches also get a CC -with a few (rare) exceptions where the CC goes to BOB only. So in popular breeds like Golden Retrievers, to win a CC you would have to beat perhaps 200 dogs or more to win a CC -some of them already Champions. In a rarer breed you may only have to beat 15 dogs or so. 3 times, 3 different judges. They do say the UK is the hardest country in the world to make a Champion up in.

No CC's go only to the best dog and best bitch.

There is no winners dog type thing as you understand it.

At championship show you will have various classes for each sex, some are age classes, others based on wins, with champions being in Open

The winners of each class come back in for the challenge and the CC (if awarded) is awarded to the best of these.  The reserve CC goes to one of the others or the dog second to the CC winner in it's class, so second placed exhibits need to stand by in case wanted for the challenge for reserve.

The same happens in bitches.  then the dog and bitch challenge for Best of Breed.

3CC's from 3 different judges, with at least one being won over 12 months of age makes a dog a champion.

In my breed if a dog is going to become a champion they are usually 3 to 5 years old by the time they achieve this, especially if there is a top winning dog getting the CC's.

If a CC winner is later disqualified for any reason then the Reserve CC winner gets the CC.

We have age classes (6-9 months, 9-12 months) and at the shows that offer veterans classes they are divided by age too (7-9 years, 9-11 years, 11+)  Then we have Classes such as Bred By Exibitor, Canadian Bred, 12-18 months, and Open.  Those dogs compete for points.  The puppies and the Class dogs.  Then the winner from Winners Bitch and Winners Dog goes in the ring against the Specials competing for Best of Breed, Best of Opposite, and Best Puppy. 

So from what I understand when it comes to England showing, ALL dogs are competing together.  Specials against puppies who arent Champions in the same class.  So a 6 month old puppy could be competing against a seasoned show dog? 

Do you have adult and puppy group and show?  Where Best of breed goes into group (puppy or not) and then only puppies in the group for Best puppy in group?  And the same for show? 

Typical classes (how many classes there are depends on breed, as those with large numbers have more classes) would be for instance Minor Puppy (6-9 months) Puppy (6-12 months), Junior (6-18 months)Yearling (12-24 months), Post Graduate (not having won more than 5 firsts at championship shows in certain classes, not won a CC), Limit (not a Champion yet, basically) and Open (open to ALL dogs pf the breed but essentially only those over qualified for the other classes enter it) and sometimes veteran (anythign above 7). One class for each sex. All the class winners compete against each other for the best of sex and the CC so yes a 6 months old puppy can compete against a fully mature Champion and at times they still beat the Champions. (There are more classes, such as Graduate, Mid Limit etc, but this is a rough guide.)

To confuse the issue, you can enter as many classes as your dog is eligible for. If you have say an 8 months old puppy, it COULD be entered in Minor puppy, Puppy, Junior, Post Graduate, Limit and Open if you so wished -but of course nobody does this as you stick to the lowest classes to avoid competing against more mature and more experienced dogs until you have to. :)

Yes the groups and BIS are the same. Not all shows have puppy groups but many do.

Thanks!  It seems so confusing, but I am sure it really isnt.  It took a while for me to figure out the point system here, if I went over to the shows over there I probably would be asking questions every time the judge pointed at a dog!  haha

Actually it is simpler as you remove these Specials that don't appear to be judged at all until Best of Breed.  Here they have to win their class before they can compete further, same as the rest.

Under both systems the puppies in the end have to compete against the more mature exhibits and the champions.

I would find that very disappointing having a champion and not competing against anything except for who is Best of Breed.

Here in the UK in my breed you could have a class of all champions in Open or ones that have a lot of wins under their belt in Open, and your put in order of merit.  So it makes the continued showing of champions worthwhile, and must be much nicer and challenging for a judge to do a class like that.

I would think it all to easy in countries that have a champions class or Specials in at then end for a judge to play sage and award BOB to one of them, though fo course you could say the same over here and some judges always put up their Open winner for the CC.  Some exhibitors play tricks on such judges by putting a good dog that doesn't have to go in Open yet in that class under such a judge.

My Inka won 2 CC's as a puppy and her third out fo Junior, some judges are even known for liking to find a new star to give the CC to.  I continued showing her as a champion in Junior, as she looked immature in the Open class against the mature dogs.

It is much more satisfying winning your CC's agaisnt existing champions.