Ok guys - pro's and con's of vaccinating at 7 and 10 rather than 8 and 12 ? in large breed dogs that wean earlier and leave breeders early?

I don't understand.  The first instance is 3 weeks apart.  The second scenario is 4 weeks apart. 

I have the Nobivac one, at 2 weeks apart.

At work we vaccinate at 8 and 10 regardless of breed. But if they're already in their new home they must have been there a few days to settle in before we vaccinate to avoid too much stress at once.

10 weeks is the earliest the second part can be given, and must be at least 14 days after the first. So if the first one was at 7 or 8 weeks then the second one will be at 10 weeks. if the first is at 8½ or 9 weeks then the second will be at 10½ or 11 weeks.

just as i typed i realised ! so would you say 8 and 10 is Ok?

Yes. That's our standard protocol and we've never had any problems with it.

Have always done 8 and 10 weeks with my SPanish.

My vet did 9 and 12 weeks, I was expecting to come back after 2 weeks for the second one and was told 12 weeks was the earliest they did it.

12 weeks is what we used to have as the earliest for the final puppy course some vaccines are still licensed for giving at this time.

I have just had 3 pups pups done with Nobivac yesterday (they are 9 weeks tomorrow) and the second one is on 3rd May, just before 11 weeks.  New owners for the two not staying won't now be able to have their pups until after that.

My medium gundog breed came home with us at 7.5 weeks and vaccinations were 9 and 11 weeks (Nobivac).

I understood that there was little point vaccinating too early due to maternal antibodies, although I appreciate that these may still be present in some dogs up to 14 weeks (?)...

This schedule worked well for me as it also meant that the pup wasn't being wormed on the same day (worming was 8 and 10 weeks)

My vet prefers to do 8 and 11, he says that the longer you leave it in the 4 week period you have inbetween vaccinations the better. Technically they can be done at 6 weeks, but he prefers them to be over 7 weeks nearer to 8, for the 1st injection.

My vet vaccinates at 7 and 10wks, but says not to take out on lead for walks etc until pups are 12wks.

My vet wont do the 2nd vaccination until 12 weeks ... I prefer not to vaccinate before 10 weeks, so we are both happy to go with 10 and 12 weeks.

I feel the antibodies are plenty strong enough in the pups up to this age so don't want to pump chemicals in too early. Lead walks can't be done for a good week after the 2nd vaccination, so bearing in mind my vet will not give the 2nd until 12 weeks, by doing 10 and 12 weeks (need a 14 day gap between the 2) we are not affecting any of the timescale to take pups out and about on lead - they obviously are taken out and about but not walked on the ground where unknown dogs are likely to have been, in between vaccinations.

The minimum age I will allow a pup to leave is 8 weeks and they don't all go at once! So I certainly wouldn't want to vaccinate earlier as this would mean some pups would end up having a 2nd vaccine with the new owner's vet ... in all likelihood using different vaccines/batches to the one my vet uses, which can potentially cause problems and result in a whole course at the new owner's vet being given. I also don't want vaccinated pups in with pups who are not yet vaccinated for obvious reasons.

Sorry, not pros and cons really, just my thought processes on why I do what I do! :-)

Slightly off topic, but I have recently had 4 pups vaccinated, my own and 3 others that for one reason or another stayed/staying past 10 weeks. 

Cost £58 each for the course and no discount for multiples, and then it's £28 for chipping, so if that became compulsory (I have always had all my pups ear tattooed anyway), who knows what they would charge.

Sure adds to the breeders costs

> £58 each for the course and no discount for multiples,

OUCH!

Barbara, I thought my vet was expensive, but that is terrible.  I negotiated a discount from my vet, just over a year ago.  After years of paying full price!  I was amazed at my cheek, as I'm a person that doesn't expect something for nothing, so to speak. 

I normally sell my pups unvaccinated, but if people want the jabs done, I insist that the pup stays for both.  I just casually asked him if he did a discount if I had the whole litter done together.  Since then, he has given me 20% discount on EVERY jab.  Boosters, the lot.  :-)  :-)

> I prefer not to vaccinate before 10 weeks, so we are both happy to go with 10 and 12 weeks

With a properly cared for dam, I totally agree.  Mums' antibodies protect them very well, IMHO.

last pup i had had his first at 6 weeks cause of a parvio outbreak, 2nd was still at 12 weeks though.

Both my dogs were done at 7 and 10 weeks and I'd always use a vet who will vaccinate that early.  There are now 2 vets in my area using the Eurican vaccine, which is given at 8 and 12 wks - I only discovered this when I had owners who said they couldn't bring their puppy to class until it was 14 wks old (!!) because their vet had said not to take it out until 2 wks after 2nd jab at 12 wks!!  I quickly identified the vet practices concerned and to my horror, one of them was our own.  Suffice to say I'm now hastily checking out other vet practices in the area, at least for puppy jabs.  I'm not a vet, but I've been running classes for 6 yrs and until this last year, all practices in my area were vaccinating at 7 and 10 wks and I never heard of a puppy contracting anything - and I get to see a lot of puppies.  As far as I can see, many more puppies are now losing out on valuable socialisation time just to minimise an already very small risk to very few puppies. 

Our vet charged £15.00 for full puppy health check and first vaccination, and same for her second injection, he is the nicest vet I ave ever been to and cassie loves going, for her leg x- rays for a limp both legs x rayed and consultation was only eighty pounds.

He came highly recommended and I'm thankful for that I certainly wouldn't,t change now, he is a vet genuinely for the animal not just the money they can charge

In the past no puppy was fully vaccinated until 12 weeks, of age, ti is only in the last 10 years or so that there have been vaccines where the final vaccination is given at 10 weeks.

In the USA they spread vaccinations out over a much longer period and the course isn't complete until over 16 weeks, but pups are taken out and socialised regardless, just kept away from high dog traffic areas.  They go to classes etc.

I'd be far less against it, if - like the US - pups could come to class before jabs were finished.  But vets again advise against that in this country (generalising, I know, but most do) and owners follow vet advice.  Until vets start advising something different, it's best for jabs to be done asap.

Last time I took a puppy to classes they were allowed to attend, although not on the floor, after their first jab.

I don't let pups come if they won't go down on the ground - some, especially the larger breeds, can scream and wriggle in frustration, wanting to get down and play...

If they did thay then they'd be asked to leave; however the socialisation aspect of experiencing the strange place and sights and sounds from the security of owner's lap can make the first visit on the ground much less scary.

I agree Jean; pups should venture into the world at their own individual pace and not be pushed out prematurely into it by owners.  But you try telling some of the puppy parents (who've paid to come to class) that they have to leave because their pup is kicking off; it feels v punitive to the owner, can be v stigmatising to send them out, and it's not good to model the exclusion of puppies whose behaviour you can't cope with, especially when it's only normal puppy behaviour.

> But you try telling some of the puppy parents (who've paid to come to class) that they have to leave because their pup is kicking off;

Obviously if they're only there to socialise and not take any part in the training aspect then they wouldn't be charged. The training classes I went to charged an annual £5 membership fee then £1 each time you attended.

Jean, it's not about charging them or the financial side of things, it's about what it feels like for someone to be asked to leave a class.

There are ways and ways of doing it; you can be rude and say loudly "Your puppy's creating havoc - you must leave" or you can politely and quietly say "Would you like to take him outside for a few minutes till he's a bit more settled?". One's offensive; the other's reasonable.

Ok, I don't want to feel responsible for this degenerating into a debate which isn't much related to the original poster's subject...

But you can't ask someone to 'pop outside for a few minutes', when it will all kick off again as soon as they re-enter the room.  If you've ever tried to hold an 11 wk old boxer or labrador puppy on your lap for 30-45 minutes (no matter how often you leave the room!) whilst other puppies are playing off lead, I think you might realise that it's actually quite cruel to expose a puppy to that level of frustration - a bit like waving a sandwich in the face of someone starving.  With my own pup, I could scarcely carry her around town in my arms and a shoulder bag because she would create havoc the whole way, wanting to go down. 

Sure, for shy and small puppies who just lie and watch, it is great for them to observe from an owner's lap - but for many confident puppies it is a disaster of an idea.  (Source - 6 yrs of running classes and working with hundreds of pups, of various breeds!).  People get very anxious about attending a class for the first time with their new puppy and about what is going to happen.  To get there and find themselves with such a frustrated and noisy pup is embarrassing by itself, but to then be asked (even politely) to step outside any time that happens - and to find themselves then unable to actually BE in class at all, or benefit from it, is counter-productive on everyone's terms. 

All I can say is that it didn't bother me and other people were very happy to give their puppies a break. For the first socialisation visit to class they'd only be there for about 15 or 20 minutes anyway; I'd never expect a baby puppy to be in a class for over half an hour anyway. They'd be getting overtired and need to go home to sleep or the experience would be counter-productive as you say.

Different strokes for different folks.

My vet will only vaccinate 3 weeks after first jab...it doesn't matter what age 8-10 weeks its still 3 weeks from the first one.

Just wondering if it is ok for pups to have first vaccine at 7 weeks 4 days or is it better to wait until they are 8 weeks ? Vet has advised it will be fine so long as second vaccine is not given before 10 weeks. (My own vet is going away on hol and I expressly want him to do the vaccines and puppy health checks, this is why I am considering having them done earlier).

Basically if you have a bitch that has been feeding her pups right up until then, not orphans your throwing your money away as the vaccine will be negated by the maternal antibodies.

I would only ever vaccinate pups early that had been orphaned or had to be weaned very young.

Basically if you have a bitch that has been feeding her pups right up until then, not orphans your throwing your money away as the vaccine will be negated by the maternal antibodies.
I would only ever vaccinate pups early that had been orphaned or had to be weaned very young

I agree with Barbara on this. I had not used to have mine vaccinated until they were 10 weeks.

Thanks for the replies, so presumably this applies at 8 weeks too ... it just seems to me that most new owners seem to expect pups will have had first vaccine before they leave the breeder (personally I always leave pups I keep until 9 weeks).

Whatever they expect no-one will get a part vaccinated puppy from me, they go with none (if due for homing prior to 10 weeks) or fully vaccinated, if not homed by 8 weeks will get both vaccinations done and any potential owner will have to wait up to 2 weeks before they can take the puppy home.

The reason is that vets use different vaccines and if pup has had one they don't use the they will simply start the vaccinations again, and pup will have had extra they don't need and may even be harmful if you believe that over vaccination causes harm to the immune system as well as helping protect from killer diseases.

> it just seems to me that most new owners seem to expect pups will have had first vaccine before they leave the breeder

I make it clear even before folk choose their puppy that I refuse to vaccinate early.  My breed is often still lactating at 9 weeks, and as they are fully vaccinated bitches, I too believe the antibodies will destroy any vaccine given too early.

Any pup that I keep is vaccinated anytime between 10-12 weeks.

As far as I'm concerned you either fully vaccinate or you don't vaccinate. By part vaccinating you can cause big problems for pup when it goes to a different vet using different vaccines. Frequently having to start the course of treatment from scratch - chemical overload!

My vets will not give the 2nd vaccination under 12 weeks. The first they wont give before 8 weeks. They need a minimum of 2 weeks between vaccines. I therefore vaccinate at 10 and 12 weeks. As has been mentioned, so long as mum is up to date, and has been feeding them, they are covered!

I never vaccinate pups if they go around 8 weeks or so.    My own are done about 9 and 12 weeks.   Same reasons as above - interference by maternal antibodies.

Jo

Replying to thread - not necessarily the individual poster...

For those who insure with PetPlan, or who are part of the PetPlan breeders scheme, what are you doing now that they've brought in the rule that any pup going to its new home from 8 weeks on must already have it's first vaccination or they won't issue the temporary cover?

I have no intention of vaccinating right around the same time they're going home - much too much stress all at once IMO.  Have PP caved on this issue or do you send them with the KC temporary cover (which is what I'm considering when the time comes).

We always used to vax at 7 and 10 weeks.
Then one of our dogs got parvo. 2 of the dogs who had been vax'd on this protocol were now 6 months old and both died :(
One who we had bought at 12 weeks was vaccinated at 12 and 14 weeks and he was only 20 weeks old when the parvo struck and this dog sailed through it.
Now I believe getting a third vax in at about 14 weeks is well worth it - the maternal antibodies should be gone by now.
I now vax parvo nobivac at 4 and 6 weeks. Full vax at 8 and 10 weeks. Nobivac parvo at 12 and 14 weeks and a full booster at 16 weeks.
I have had no problem since.
Know it sounds a lot but not lost a single pup since the parvo. It was very frightening and sad to watch the dogs and puppies very sick and all the cleaning afterwards.
This protocol was recommended by intervet who make nobivac.

Jeeeeez.. vax at 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14 AND 16 weeks... am I reading that correctly????

I appreciate that having lost pups to parvo, you are rightly very worried about the risks, but the above schedule is a MASSIVE strain and shock to a pups immune system and IMO hugely increases the risk of over vaccination related auto immune problems.

I personally prefer a pup has NO vaccination AT ALL until 16 weeks, then a titer test, then vax for anything the titer shows may be lacking.

Vaccination before the maternal antibodies are gone is a waste of time and a risk to your pups health, it cannot and will not achieve any positive benefit.

Dated 2006 - the information that my vet had available when he was still telling me my dogs require annual boosters

http://www.intervet.co.uk/Products_Public/Nobivac_DHPPi/090_Product_Datasheet.asp

The reason that the duration of immunity is 3 three years is that they stopped testing after 3 years - not that the immunity ceased!

We are starting the vaccines at 6 weeks now as it is a longer period from the parvo.
We lost 7 week old puppies to parvo so had we waited until they were 16 weeks they would have died. I agree in a clean parvo free environment that is ok but for us we have to treat all dogs and puppies as though they are living in an affected area. I know a vax when maternal antibodies are there is a waste but also it does no harm - better be safe than sorry.
TBH there are so many opinions. I spoke to intervet and about a million other people and experts and finally spoke to a professor in the states who had taken 8 years out of veterinary practicing to study parvo alone. He recommended the above protocol. It was tested as the most reliable.
This is not for the average household I agree and with each month that goes by maybe another dormant hiding beneath the ground parvo particle will die!
On the plus my dogs will now have a very high natural immunity as they have been living within it and the maternal antibodies will hence be very strong but once they stop the puppies are as susceptible as any other to catching it and remember despite my obsessive cleaning it is prob still hanging around somewhere??