Hi All

I posted a while ago about this but still cannot understand why my westie is producing soft motion, he is being fed on a raw diet but am wondering whether i may be feeding too much thats why his motion is soft, when you pick it up it is formed but you can splodge it straight in which i have been told dogs on raw feeding produce hard firm kickable pooh's but my dog does nothing like this and we are still getting blocked anal glands because of this. The vet said the harder motion will clear the glands but where am i going wrong.
He has lamb rib bones and chicken wings on alternate mornings for breakfast and then mince meat in the evening, i have just ordered some new meat from a new supplier raw to go to see if this will be better, he has no treats just his meals, the only other thing i add to his food is aloe vera liquid which the homeopathic vet has suggested i add to his dinner.
I currently feed him 250g per day split over 2 meals, he was having natural instinct pure meat but i have been advised to add new proteins thats why i have ordered from raw to go to exclude the fruit and veg as i thought this was making him more lose, but this week he has only had pure meats and is still not rock hard motions.
The raw to go meat seems very bloody in the packet i have ordered the chicken and tripe, lamb and rabbit meats, the lamb seems very bloody in the bag so not sure if this is how it always is and i have also read somebody else said when its defrosted its very sloppy so maybe i have brought the wrong meat.
Any ideas i would be very grateful for i assumed that raw feeding would have firmed him up but guess i was wrong, perhaps somebody may have an idea.

If you think you may be feeding too much cut the portions down slightly to see if that helps. Try 200g a day for a week, if it makes no difference you'll know it isn't that, just make sure you stick to the same proteins that you have been using (don't introduce the rabbit or anything new). Have you started on the "raw to go" yet? If you haven't I'd stick with the Natural Instinct if possible as that is what he's used to.

Has he ever been really solid (kickably so)?

Sometimes 1st thing in the mornings his first motion is firm but then gets softer during the day but recently he has been soft most of the time, just cannot understand why on raw his motion isn't like the dogs on here that are fed raw, i must be doing something wrong.

Try cutting the amount fed down and see what happens.

I'm sure I've said this before: every dog is different.  Whilst raw tends to make many dogs firm it won't do it for every dog - or every poo!  Dogs are affected by exercise, time of day, spring grass, and the weather. 

You keep asking, and some of us keep answering, but you have to give it time.  It can take 6 months for a new diet to have the sort of effects you are looking for.  Part of that time will be needed for you to get his portion sizes right to maintain or manage his weight, and the remainder of the time will be needed for Robbie's gut to improve.

I know you are hoping to improve the range of meat you give him but if you keep adding new foods (protein source or supplier) it will delay things so don't expect overnight results.  Just persevere, I'm sure things will come good in the end :)

I know i have asked this question before but when the vet keeps saying until his motions are firm his glands won't even express naturally i feel i am fighting a losing battle, some days his motion is firmer than others and then we have a spell where it goes soft again, he has been on natural instinct raw meat now since last August so its not that i keep changing suppliers every week, i found on the chicken fruit and veg variety his motion was softer thats why i went onto pure chicken, which he has been on for a while, but a lot of people on here said i couldn't keep feeding just chicken and that he needed more variety, but NI don't do many different pure meats thats why i looked into raw to go as i had heard good reports and they did a variety, on talking to the homeopath she said she wants him off of predominantly chicken feed and more onto lamb to see if its a chicken allergy thats why i contacted raw to go and got some lamb, and i also got some rabbit to try in a few weeks time.
I don't expect great results overnight but i expected after all this time on a raw diet that his motion would have been getting better not worse, sorry if i sound impatient but i just want to get robbie more settled .

The reason it's firmer in the morning is that it's had time to form overnight and has been sitting in the colon.  You would expect it to be softer through the day as exercise will aid peristalsis and reduce gastrointestinal transit time. 

You may just find it's the way he processes his food but you might be able to tweak volume and timings to help a bit.  It's a tricky one though as you don't want to do anything to affect a healthy digestion. Try feeding something relatively indigestible, like corn, to see how long it takes to pass through and then work with that.  Perhaps give him his bony meal at night?

However it may simply be that this is the way Robbie's digestion works and problems with his anal glands are an indicator of that...

Just had a look at the NI website - wow, are those prices correct? 
This may sound odd, but perhaps these are too 'pure'. I get mine from Landywoods, and they contain lots of fat, gristle, cartilage, tendon etc, which I think they should if you are to mimic a natural diet. I know everyone is saying don't keep chopping and changing, but I think you are right to give it a try, unless there is some other problem except for the looseness of the poo. Must say mine have always had 'kickable' poo LOL. Perhaps otherwise you should up the bone content a little.  Are you sure the aloe vera extract isn't contributing to his looseness?

LW also do a lamb tripe, which my friends dog who is pancreatic insufficient does very well on (with the tablets she needs to help digest it). I wouldn't worry about the food being bloody, I would expect that.

I've put my boy back onto raw and for some reason his poo's have gone very soft and also his anal glands needed cleaning out the other day by the vet. The complete raw packs are doing this to him i've found, also raw chicken mince and raw lamb is not good on his stomach now either. We are heading back to raw tripe, chicken wings carcusses etc..
For some reason this supplier's meats are not really agreeing with my boys stomach, and with a long coat its not nice when he has the runs...

I have found in the past that by upping the bone content slightly does help with hardening up the poo's. Now I have far too much raw food... Hmmm... Rachel you want my complete raw packs?

> Rachel you want my complete raw packs?

I've changed my mind about wanting to do 'Come dine with me' with the Horlers.....  :-D ;-)

Poor Kai's bott willing to give a go with the boys lol like you tripe and bones work best !!!

Lol @ Liv !!! xx

I've found that if I've given to much bones that it usually goes like a pasty grey.  Cut down on the bones for a few days and it goes back to being solid again.

> I've changed my mind about wanting to do 'Come dine with me' with the Horlers.....  :-D ;-)

OOh HG we still doing that? Think there are a few tipples to be had next time round hers!! Mojito's anyone?
As for food, unless a young Jess is doing the cooking i'd leave well alone ;-)

One of my dogs has been raw fed for over 5 years and his poos can vary from day to day. Personally I don't want him to have a rock solid output but prefer it to just be firm. Some days it is looser but this can depend on what he has eaten and also how much water he has drunk. On days when he is working he tends to drink more and have softer stools.

He has had to have his anal glands emptied a few times but not on a regular basis. I think some dogs are more prone to this than others and I suspect that if he was fed any other diet than raw he would have to have them emptied far more frequently. I think it has been done three or four times in all.

I buy meat from Landywoods and believe there is quite a high bone content in some of the meats such as chicken and other poultry.

Not sure how much Robbie weighs but taking an average of about 20lbs for a westie he should be getting about 200 gms X 2 a day. If he is a small dog then about 170 gms.
My gilrs are raw fed and have raw tripe as their staple diet, i do use a smaller amount of the minced lamb or beef too. They get lamb ribs and chicken carcasses along with chicken necks, through the week. If I feed a bone meal like carcass for brekky thyem they have trip for tea. They also get cottage cheese yoghurt, fresh raw sprats when I can get them, tinned tuna in sunflower oil
So lets say Mon :- Chicken carcass (Including liver/kidneys still in the carcass..as a rule) for brekky then tripe with some cottage chees
Tues:- Tripe with a couple of sprats, and a raw egg, then minced beef with some left over veg for tea
Wed :- Chicken necks, Then tripe with some tuna for tea
Thurs :- Tripe with some yoghurt, then lamb ribs for tea.
Fri :- Minced lamb with some veg if available. (Only whats left from our meal the night before) Then tripe for tea.
Etc....
I wonder if you are giving him a little too much and lots of rich minced meats with very little substance in it. Better if you used some tripe as , mine get some tripe every day. It is really good as a staple diet. The veg I give is only ever what we have spare. But I do make sure they get a little organ meat every week. The carcasses I get often have some still in situ.
My girls weigh in at around the 50kg mark Pup a bit less and Merlot a little more. Merlot at 57 kg is the biggest..but lazy so she gets about 300 gms X 2 times a day. Pepsi is about the same and is 9 now so not so active and she gets the same amount, pup is 47 kg but never stops running so she needs more and gets 450 gms X 2 times a day. Thats aprox as I feed by eye..
Hope this may help with a bit of the "mechanics" behind raw feeding.
Aileen

Hi Robbie weighs just under 9kg and i have been feeding him around 250g per day but i have been trying to work out how much he should be having and if its 2% then is should be 180g per day and 2.5% should be 225g per day, so i guess the extra 25g could be contributing to the soft motion, i am still not convinced it isn't the aloe vera liquid that the homeopath gave me for his skin, thinking about cutting this down and seeing what happens.
I don't think it would be the lamb rib bones i have introduced surely unless lamb can give them looser pooh's, not sure whether to start on the raw to go or not, haven't got any other meat other than the NI to give him and don't want to go ordering more, i have lamb and chicken/tripe and rabbit in this and was told to introduce 1 meat protein at a time so not sure what would be the best 1, i may go back to more chicken wings than lamb rib bones for breakfast and see if he firms up, was feeding these on alternate mornings but perhaps not a good idea.

When you make changes do them one at a time and wait before altering again

Reduce his portions to 110g per meal (220g) total and then wait for two weeks before doing anything else.

Sometimes it can make a difference as to whether your dog can digest the fat content that it is being fed.  Dogs fed on raw diets have a varied source of fat content as they are fed different meats, lamb is fattier than beef generally depending on what cuts you use.  Years ago I had a dog that just could not digest the fat content that it was being given.....don't get me wrong, he had a wonderful coat condition and as he was a youngster he wasnt getting fat with fatty deposits but he did have loose stools, formed but loose as you describe.  Perhaps, you could change the cuts of the meat to very lean pieces ?? and up the fibre content and see how you get on.  Hope this helps.

What do yo u mean by upping the fibre content? If all he has is meat

Sorry Hamish, meant upping the veg content

U r doing this all wrong. No wander that the dog is having soft faeces. It is fortunate luck that the poor dog havent got salmonella most probably campilobacter infections and tape worms at least at the momment. You have to stop feading it  bones wich can give it obstructions. Your vet need to send a faeces sample in the lab and prescribe you food for sensitive stomach. But please no bones or raw meat that can only get the poor dog in to tribles

Vet79 is that a professional view or what experience do you have on dog nutrition ?

Vet79 you seem to be doing an awful lot of diagnosing things over the internet without setting eyes or hands on any of these dogs? The dog in question has been under the vets guidance for a long time along with a herbalist.

I was told raw feeding was best for robbie with his skin problems and that bones were okay for dogs unless they had been cooked, i wish people would make there minds up on raw feeding being good or bad for the dog as most people on here have said raw feeding is the way to go with robbie, as kibble doesn't seem to agree with him either

Just try and take a balanced view on the subject and try and see posts that are perhaps made by posters that do not really have the necessary knowledge or experience ;-)

HAMISH75
Dont panic, continue with what you are doing, at the end of the day you have exhuasted a fair few options so this is another one you are trying, there is no guarentee it will be the magic solution but IMO its well worth trying and Raw feeding is such a personal choice that many people are scared of it. You have had some great advise on here (some of which i've used myself) so dont be put off by someone stiring trouble.

xx

> Just try and take a balanced view on the subject and try and see posts that are perhaps made by posters that do not really have the necessary knowledge or experience ;-)

*like*

> wish people would make there minds up on raw feeding being good or bad for the dog

Most people have!  You have one brand new member with a misleading name giving some rather odd advice on a range of medical topics.  The spelling might suggest a young poster with a bit of free time :)

Hamish75 you've had a lot of advice over time and quite a lot of reading material suggested too.  After all that time and research ONE poster shouldn't make you question what you've learnt.  In all honesty it's probably you that needs to make up your mind about the merits of raw feeding; YOU have to be sure that you are doing what's right for Robbie and if you're still not sure then a forum isn't going to help any further.  On a forum such as this you're getting snippets of information based on a variety of experiences.  This is ideal for gathering opinion but isn't exactly academic and of course dogs are all a bit different. 

Don't panic though.  Have a look at Tom Lonsdale and Kymythy Shultze for some more background reading.  I'm sure they'll help put your mind at ease :)

Please Hamish dont get the wobbles now. Robbie has come along way with what you have been doing. You have the backing of your homeopath and vet and Robbie is improving. Perfection may never come but that doesnt mean you shouldnt strive for it or revert to the things that he was on before.
There are loads of us on here to back you on the raw feeding all I should have imagined have done loads of reseach and our dogs are doing great in many cases better than before. Other peoiple obvioulsy have alternative views nothing is right for everyone and some people prefer other types of food thats fine its a free country :) There is no diffinitive answer to the question good or bad   
Please dont be put off by one person who has obviously not taken the time to look at your posts or I would say had done much research
I am sure by now you have done much research and spoken to others not necessarily on here. Your best advocate for raw feeding is you dog is he improving ? yes

BTw vet79? what sort of tribles ? my dogs after 4 healthy years have no tribles only good health 

Pleased to say after 4 years on raw food my dogs are tribles free, never had any sort of food poisoning but maybe that's becasue they are designed to eat raw meat and digest it faster than we would.  The benefits I've seen in my own dogs far outweigh any thoughts of going back to kibble feeding.  My vet isn't 100% on board with the raw feeding but even he says how great the pooches look when they go in for routine visits.  Vet79 your post cheered me up no end thanks.

I have 3 dogs of varying ages on a raw diet  - they are all "trible" free and a great advert for fresh raw food as nature intended!

Please stay on topic. Disscussion of advice given is the best why to help the OP.