Hi most of you will remember Taryn's litter last year where she died after a section and I hand reared 12 puppies. Well I kept a boy and a girl and because of the circumstances I have kinda let them have a free rein....oooops!!!
Well for the last few months they have got rougher and rougher with each other and probably from around 6 months of age the girl has made the boys life very rough. From the time they get up to the time they go to bed she is on his case.
This comes in the form of grabbing him by the neck, back or legs wherever we are in the house, outside or on a walk. I can't keep them apart constantly as all dogs live in the house.
People are saying it is because they are brother and sister but I have often kept two from a litter and never had this problem. I seem to have tried everything and now they are 12 months my day seems to revolve around splitting them up, yelling at her to get off of him to which she will not unless I go and get her. Some of you will remember that she had a convulsion as a young puppy and I am now wondering whether it has left her with issues re learning as she has attended a training class for 8 weeks and we have got no where.
I love them both to bits obviously esp as they are Taryn's legacy to me BUT I can't live like this forever.
Vets etc all say they can't find anything wrong with her so where else can I turn? Should I rehome one which would break my heart? Or should I just be tougher on her? Ideas from anyone? They are both lovely dogs away from one another but they are causing chaos here together. I was hoping to channel her to work but if she can't learn at a basic obedience class she isn't going to pick up anything at a working class!!! When on a one to one with me she is a happy outgoing girl who wants to please she just doesn't seem able to get commands which isn't everything and I can have her as a pet but I need to stop her making her brothers life hell. She does come back when called and knows stand but I wonder if she just copies the other dogs.
Sorry this is disjointed I just thought the background history might be relevent.

Nicolla, I know exactly what you mean... been there done that.. and it;s not just because they are litter mates... 18months ago, I had two litters together, 6 days apart..  I kept 3 pups.. 1 from 1 litter, 2 from the other.. one pups was a doddle, lazy beggar :-)  but the other two, never stopped.. it was a constant nudge, pull, push, shove, grab neck, race ya down the field and back while barging into each other or grabbing a leg from behind.. absolutely no animosity or nastiness.. just very rough school playground stuff..

WE are now just over the 18months hurdle and life is once again becoming less hectic ... They did actually settle down quite a while ago, but every now and then, they will just push the boundaries a little...  "Pack it in" rolls off the tongue without thinking lol... and it does sometime seem that life is always going to be hard.. but it does get better..

Why this happened I don't know... I let it happen, knowing the pitfalls of keeping 2 pups together.. I have done it 3 times in the past, and never made this mistake.. possibly because I desperately wanted this litter as I knew I was losing Ollie to cancer and he died 5 weeks after pups were born.  I have let Xionee away with murder... but she is a well trained girl, passed KCGC Silver... doing well in gundog training.. a natural.. yet when let loose with her mate.. its choas.. I love her to bits, and would never be able to part with her..

A couple of crates for time out, a cuppa, and all is well with the world :-)

Have you tried a two prong approach - 1) rewarding her whenever she's not badgering him; and 2) short but consistent time-outs when she is?

By which I mean in a crate or another room for a minute or two tops, every time she starts on him - same result every time.  If she really struggles to learn then keeping things very consistent may help.

Rewarding anything that isn't this bullying behaviour would teach her to find pleasure in non-bullying activities - I've used it to great effect here with River, she could be an absolute swine with the others - she must have all the toys, she must police every play activity that is going on which was resulting in scraps because it was annoying the playees.  So she gets sent away if she starts, and rewarded if she doesn't.

It's still a work in progress - she takes very strongly after her collie dad so has that intensity about everything she does, but it is working.  I'm also doing the same with Raine for the same problem - it's working a lot faster with her, but she's not been doing it as long (she's learnt it from River unfortunately).

I'm also doing the same with Raine for the same problem - it's working a lot faster with her, but she's not been doing it as long (she's learnt it from River unfortunately).

Yes that is the problem here these 2 are teaching my 10 week old that I brought in the art of rough play and I really don't want that.
I do take Tati away and put her in a crate for time out so hopefully she will learn in time that it is the result for being rough. Her brother Cobb spends his whole life screaming out and trying to get to me but in turn he is learning to bully the youngster.

Will keep trying as I really dont want to part with them

Oh KayC I feel better already knowing that it isn't just me.
I actually have 3 the same age 1 from one litter and she is a dream and 2 from Taryn's litter who drive me mad.

Good to know it is only rough play because obviously it was stressing me thinking she might actually have a problem from the convulsion. I will keep up the training and see how things progress, sometimes I wish we had respite for dogs so I had time out from her she is truly hard work. Would love to get her working although she is starting to look nice now for the showring.

I only have 1 crate up and put her away and when she comes out she flies out and goes straight for him and then refuses to stop is it best I put both away when they get out of hand. I do feel sorry for Cobb but then occasionally she will be being good and you see him get a sly nudge in and then it kicks off again. So think he is probably just as bad.
Taryn is probably sat looking down on us laughing and saying you think I was hard work try these 2 lol

> I only have 1 crate up and put her away and when she comes out she flies out and goes straight for him and then refuses to stop is it best I put both away when they get out of hand

I put two crates up.. and both have time outs (can I write a little disclaimer here for others... A crate should never be used as punishment, a crate is a safe haven, and for safety... in this case, the time outs are safety valvesnot punishment)

I find that allowing both of them some time to themselves, with crates next to each other,I find they don't come flying out to start over again... they are still together just seperated by a mesh barrier... and the calm is mutual...

If you only have the one crate, for the time being.. I would give Cobb the haven... Take the fun away from her and give Cobb some quiet time of his own... give Cobb a chew or bone while he is in the crate.

Even swapping them over for a while.  Bringing him out, while she goes for a rest... allowing short controlled periods together

I have a baby gate at the kitchen door... and rather than use the crates... one is in the kitchen while the others are not... but can still be together, if you seen what I mean...

The baby gate was actually instigated for Ollie and it worked :)

And yes... Ollie and Taryn are sat laughing at us both.. conspirary theory? :-)

And yes... Ollie and Taryn are sat laughing at us both.. conspirary theory

pmsl

Thanks Kay will give it a go, have erected a 2nd crate. So once fed this evening will start using them. They are out the garden at the moment running around playing fairly nicely. They are tired though as have walked and swam them this morning on the mountain lol.

Tati has this morning been offered a place at the local day care centre so I am thinking of putting her there one day a week to be on the farm and mix with other dogs. There she will be around other dogs and ponies and be with the owners who are usually in the yard or on their land they have an array of dogs who they own and whom she can play and learn with. She can then curl up in the house whilst she waits for me to collect her. Hopefully mentally one day a week she will be worn out and Cobb can have some peace and spend some time with me.

It's possible, if their mum died at birth, that they have missed out on vital learning and disciplining from her...??

It's possible, if their mum died at birth, that they have missed out on vital learning and disciplining from her...??

Yes they probably did a little bit although my other dogs had access to the pups from day 1 and they do tell them off. They do take notice occasionally but Taryn their mum was my top dog too so the hiarchy here has been somewhat confused and lacking since she died. Her daughter from the litter before now seems to be starting to step up as pack leader which is good.