Just in case the thread gets pulled ;), the results to the question "Do you agree that the use, and recommendation for use, of e-collars, prong collars etc should be allowed on this forum?" are as follows:-

For the use/recommendation of such collars on the forum      2%
Against the use of such collars                                        96%
Don't know                                                                     2%

Thank you, Pedlee, for devising this poll in a manner that we can judge to be as authentic as possible!

Margot

I've kept a copy too :-) 

Pretty conclusive so far, hope Admin is paying attention :-)

The two posters with no stars both voted NO, but as Pedlee says it is fairer to leave them out as it discourages more people from joining just to vote.

Ah, thanks for making this thread.  Now I can explain why I felt I couldn't vote.  The first category has two parts.  I would distinguish between the use of prongs and the recommendation of their use.  I'm leery of anyone who recommends most things on the internet without observing dog and owner in action.  Unless you further distinguish between recommending it's use as opposed to recommending giving it a try.  The word "recommend" does seem to imply that the implement will work though, to me.  Maybe getting too far into semantics.

And maybe my memory is failing (I can't go to the first page of Pedlee's thread) but didn't Pedlee ask if these things should be discussed?  Not if folks are "for" their use?  But rather discussion among those who do use, are curious about use or would like to counter their use or give their own personal experience.  As it stands above the first category is not the same thing.

Sorry Lokis mum, if I've got it wrong.  Sorry to all for scrutinizing the statements so closely but I can't help it.   Part of my schooling and work experience is in market research, particularly the design of surverys and I learned you have to be very, very careful not to lead the respondant and to clearly present options without swaying the outcome.

Just can't quit, me.  :)  I would vote YES, to discussion of personal experience or questions on possible use.  I would vote NO to recommendation of any training method or aid if the recommendation seemed to suggest it would work and was the best, one and only way to go.  I can't believe any one method, aid, what have you, will work, or not work, in every single situation.

It's too bad this forum doesn't have polls, it would be a lot easier and some of them on other forums are quite fun.

>didn't Pedlee ask if these things should be discussed?

No, Pedlee's poll is "Do you agree that the use, and recommendation for use, of e-collars, prong collars etc should be allowed on this forum?" Nothing about whether or not they should be discussed.

(You can get to the first page of the thread if you click on 'Board Index' at the the top of this page, then click 'Mark read' and 'Mark Old'. You should then be able to view all pages.)

>didn't Pedlee ask if these things should be discussed?

I thought this is what was asked also. Has the 1st post been edited?

Pedlee asked:-

"Do you agree that the use, and recommendation for use, of e-collars, prong collars etc should be allowed on this forum?

All replies should be a simple "yes", "no" or "don't know", nothing more, no explanation of reasons are required."

so are we now going to have an argument about what the op said or didnt say?

I don't think so!

Aimibobs appears to have a split personality - do you wish to vote YES or NO, you can't choose both :-)

By aimibobs   Date 08.04.11 11:22 GMT
yes

By aimibobs   Date 08.04.11 14:32 GMT
NO

It seems to me that the "unofficial poll" is pretty conclusive and most members would prefer it if the use, and recommendation for use of e-collars, prong collars etc, was not discussed on this forum.

I really hope Mark (Admin) takes note of our feelings and acts accordingly.

Out of interest I'd also like to know his personal views on the subject.

Hi Chamsung,

I didn't read it properly, sorry and wanted to change.
I don't agree with the recommendation for use of e-collars, prong collars etc. So a deffo NO.

I had replies yes to what I thought I'd read to be able to discus them.

Sorry for messing you around

I don't think so, it's not conclusive as there is a difference between allowing the *discussion* of something and allowing the *promotion* of something.

If ecollars etc are banned as a subject for discussion, ignorant and naive pet owners are not going to be able to say things like 'I went to a trainer last week, who told me to use the ecollar because X Y Z reason' - and then we won't be able to put said pet owner right on things, and they will instead go ahead and use these methods.

Banning freedom of speech and open discussion isn't going to stop these devices being used:  Quite the opposite, it's going to mean that your voices against the methods don't get heard either, because the subject just never comes up.  It might make for a nice peaceful time on the forum, but meanwhile what is getting strapped to dogs' necks up and down the UK...?

The original question was: Do you agree that the use, and recommendation for use, of e-collars, prong collars etc should be allowed on this forum?

This is obviously a forum where things are discussed. BUT, maybe I should have worded my post on this thread more carefully and it's too late to edit:

It seems to me that the "unofficial poll" is pretty conclusive and most members would prefer it if the use, and recommendation for use of e-collars, prong collars etc, was not ALLOWED on this forum.

Pedlee I have to say I struggled a bit and didn't reply because I do believe that some discussion about the use of such devices is important.  My big bug bear is the constant bombardment of posts by one person, who incidentally does not contribute to any other topics, is wrong and should be stopped.

I whoeheartedly agree with the spirit in which your post was made but I got strangled by my need for precise wording (Sorry)

It is very difficult to word things accurately so that everyone understands the meaning unequivocally.

I think most people understood what I was trying to say, and agree with the basic principle.

The question should have been..."Should certain member one and certain member two (im sure you all know who i mean) and their aliases, be banned from posting on this forum?"

Lets face it, without these two members the forum would be running as well as it always has and all this fuss would not exist.

I dont mind the discussion of e colars/prong collars etc. My issue is with every other post started by a member asking for advice, being hijacked by a certain poster advertising the use of these collars in circumstances that require the total opposite of harsh handling/treatment.

>It is very difficult to word things accurately so that everyone understands the meaning unequivocally. I think most people understood what I was trying to say, and agree with the basic principle.

Firstly let me start by saying, I think it was a good idea of yours to run a simple yes/no thread to gage opinion on this subject as opposed to running a poll.

However I couldn't disagree more with your statement  "I think most people understood what I was trying to say, and agree with the basic principle."

I believe most people who have replied in that thread have interpreted your question how ever they wanted to and answered it accordingly.

I am not a market researcher, although I do have a background in statistics, but I think your original question was poorly worded and as such any results can not be trusted.

It is blindingly obvious that majority of this forum do not agree with the use of electric collars.

However in my opinion your question should have simply said "Do you think that the use of electric collars should be discussed on this forum".

If you had asked that question instead of the some what wooly question you did ask you I think you would have got a much different response.

The way your question was worded implied if you voted no it meant you could discuss e-collars as long as you didn't advocate their use.

Mark you say you are not a market researcher and I think we all quite realise you are not a dog person :-)

I find it quite amazing that you after how many years of being a silent Admin that you are so vocal now. And also quite rude about the poll post.

I wonder where the other Admin is as this is totally out of character

Mark

I'm sorry you seem so put out by my thread and the wording used. If it was totally the wrong wording perhaps you, as Admin, could have stepped in and re-worded it.

I am not a heavy poster on this board, and certainly don't post as often as some well respected members who have now left/are considering leaving because of the amount of behaviour threads being answered by the same poster(s) with the same responses and accompanying videos, but somebody needed to step in to let you, as Admin, know the depth of feeling on this matter. That person happened to be me.

> It is blindingly obvious that majority of this forum do not agree with the use of electric collars.<br /><br />However in my opinion your question should have simply said "Do you think that the use of electric collars should be discussed on this forum".<br /><br />If you had asked that question instead of the some what wooly question you did ask you I think you would have got a much different response.<br /><br />The way your question was worded implied if you voted no it meant you could discuss e-collars as long as you didn't advocate their use.

Perhaps you'd like to ask that question then and see what response you get to that!

As I asked before, what is your view on e-collars?

> ......some well respected members who have now left/are considering leaving because of the amount of behaviour threads being answered by the same poster(s) with the same responses and accompanying videos

Thank you for your poll Pedlee.
Perhaps it could be alternatively phrased: "Who would leave or consider leaving if the posts on e-collars were allowed to remain/if the person in particular was allowed to remain."

I would answer Yes on both counts.
However, I'm not a years-long member and I am also not a breeder who advertises on Champdogs, BUT if breeders who DO pay for CDs services are, or would consider, leaving and withdrawing their support (both on the forum and possibly also financially on the rest of the site) over this issue, then Admin better do something..... fast.

Banning freedom of speech and open discussion isn't going to stop these devices being used:  Quite the opposite, it's going to mean that your voices against the methods don't get heard either, because the subject just never comes up.  It might make for a nice peaceful time on the forum, but meanwhile what is getting strapped to dogs' necks up and down the UK...?

I understand that point of view :)

However - I would argue that the same old same old "discussions" are being brought up on various forums by the same old, same old people. If anyone wants info, there is a lot of info both for and against on the internet.

As I've said on another thread, the couple of people involved with e-c appear to have an agenda to push their product just as hard as they can, at every opportunity. The purpose is not to discuss but to sell, and that is a very different kettle of fish. It is tiresome to repeatedly have a product pushed under your nose,
when you have made it clear that you are not interested.

I'm sure between us we could still have discussions about e-c, by dropping/substituting key words one would reduce selling opportunities while maintaining freedom of speech.

I feel very upset as I know others do about what is happening atm with champdogs. Personally I feel that losing our knowledgeably and respected people would be a great loss to all. Who is going to balalnce out these "salesman"  ?who is going to continue to give good advice ? If those who with knowledge leave we are allowing these people to win there arguement and sales pitch.
Imo its exactly what they "the e collar people " want, to get rid of their opponents  and new members will get a one sided view of things and lose all that we have gained

I for one have learned so much in the 2.5  years I have been here

Common people ,stength in numbers ignore these people and getting on with the good fun and advice that is given here.

Do you know I don't think any of this, the polls etc is going to make a blind bit of difference, it is just a way to let us all diffuse a little and tells the board what we already know.

Admin and our mods will hopefully stop the advertising (my biggest bugbear) we don't need links and self promoting videos of people training etc, and we'll have to be happy with that I guess and hope that our zapper fans will just moderate themselves and not try to hijack threads and if so we shall have to moderate how much air time we give, you can only talk to yourself for so long........

Off on my hols now, hope to come back to a nice laid back, peaceful board, with all our friends back where they belong. Really scared I'm going to come back and find no-one here! So please just all stay calm and cool, things will sort out, they usually do.

Remember all those dogs and owners who need you. :-) See you all soon.............

here here carrington

I do think discussion on the use of e-collars and prong collars use should be allowed if we get somebody on here asking for advice and we should offer other better and more intelligent ways of training a dog.

However that said one poster does keep directing people off site to what I can only assume is an advertising stunt. That would be the same as any members here saying on a thread well actually I have really lovely puppies go here to look at the pictures and being directed to a web site where the puppies are for sale. I think any posts connected to the promotion of a business or sale of products be they puppies or collars should be automatically removed.