I have a bitch 21/2 years old, first litter three pups, C Section. She started of a perfect mum she was happy to be in the whelping box with them or come out and sit with us between feeding, now at 15 days old she has changed, she will not leave them, she will not eat and if any of us enter the room she goes into a state of pure panic, as if she doesn't trust any of us. She has attacked the puppies. She hasn't yet hurt them but they are scared when she goes into one. I have had to drag her out and she is snarling and growling, I honestly think she will kill or seriously hurt the puppies. I have taken her to vet today and there are no medical signs that something is wrong. Blood test also good. He gave her a jab of Calcium just in case but there is no change. Tonight I have had to muzzle her but she gets more stressed that she cannot clean them, I cannot understand how she will clean and feed but in the next breath wants to attack. I take her away from puppies after feeding and she is frantic trying to get back to them. Any advice would greatly appreciated.

PS: As a rule she is a very gentle loving girl who adores her food, well any food to be honest, she does get jealouse from time to time but never aggresive just sulky and a bit of a moan, she has a great temperement which makes this harder to understand.

hi I wont pretend I know what going on here but I feel for you it must be so worrying. Are puppies nails short maybe they are scratching her when they feed. Hope everything works out ok

Sounds very much like a medical problem, I would think enclampsia (Sp) but as the vet has ruled this out then I have no answers. You must be beside yourself with worry. Has anyone else but immediate family been in to see pups? maybe she is worried about strangers in her room! Are pups up on their feet yet? 15 days is a little early to start solids but if she is intent on killing them then you will have to take her away. Is she in a secluded position? maybe that will help. Is it anyone entering the room or just one person, is she better with one person than another, if so then just the person she is most settled with will have to have the contact and keep everyone else away. If all else fails I think you may have to remove her and hand rear or it sounds like you may loose them.
Awfull situation for you.
Aileen

medically there were no problems, physically it seemed it might be psudo eclampsia (spl) hence why he gave calcium shot but she seems worse tonight, she has eaten a little meat I hope she doesn't bring it up, she bought up her breakfast and hadn't eaten at al through the day. Pups nails are kept short. They have just started getting up on feet and she doesn't like that either, she gets quite frantic if they move about she doesn't like the fact they move to paper to pee either. Could this just be an over protective mum, or perhaps jealousy.

No starngers have been near her only myself my partner and my daughter she doesn't trust any of us :/

> I take her away from puppies after feeding and she is frantic trying to get back to them. Any advice would greatly appreciated.
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Why do you take her away from puppies after feeding, and how long have you been doing this?

Just this evening because she was attacking them, she has had access to them from day one and can come and go as she pleases, but since yesterday I have had to watch her 24/7 as she just attacks for no reason. She was worse tonight so I muzzled her and took her out of whelping box after feeding.

OK, so it's obvious that she feels threatened, as you have never had cause to fault her temperament before now.

Sooooo  it's finding what that trigger is!  Where is the whelping box, and is it enclosed and denlike?

And do you more or less leave her to it with pups, or are you always touching them, and taking them out of the whelping box?

whelping box in my room, yes enclosed and covered as in denlike. I sat near the box reading for the first week due to her C section, then just kept popping in and out. I handle the puppies daily have done since day 1, I don't remove them from her area. They are only just two weeks old I am hardly likely to be letting them out to play!!

This happened suddenly for no reason, nothing different happened ( as far as I am aware) tat could cause such behaviour

I'm no one  is trying to say you are doing anything wrong but just trying to workout why she is acting like this.

it wasn't meant to sound rude, I guess I am just tired and worried and I type to fast!  Apologies if it was read as being rude

Dont worry about it I'm not surprised I'd probably be the same and people think having puppies is easy money it's the most stressful thing i've ever done.

thank you rubyruby

Its ok but if you are really worried you could think about weaning them I know there only two weeks but I started weaning my first litter at that age because they kept robbing mums food because she wouldn't move away even for her meals.

did they manage the food ok, what did you start them on, I was going to start in raw meat at about 4 weeks :/

They did brilliantly thay had a complete puppy food mushed up with warm water and I had no problems what so ever they absolutley loved it

thank you, off to do another feed then try and get some sleep. Thank you for replies people :)

> don't remove them from her area. They are only just two weeks old I am hardly likely to be letting them out to play!!
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The only way that people can try to advise you is by asking questions when they feel that more detail is needed to help you.  I had no way of knowing what your set up is, and was trying to get a clearer picture, in the hope that I could pinpoint something to give you advice.

post already mentioned apology already said. tired and worried so maybe posts dont always read as tehy should.

Are you still feeding bitch in the whelping box, as now they are on their feet, some bitches who are food will growl at pups if they try to eat her food.

Are her glands getting full.

I would start them on solids in case you do need to wean them right off Mum.  I usually start at 18 days anyway, but have started as soon as eyes were open when weight gain has levelled off.

No, never fed in whelping box, mum is fed away from pups, still not eating. She has plenty of milk and puppies do drain all teats.

To be honest I have only ever heard of this sort of thing with a very sharp Terrier breed where the bitch viewed her pups as prey once they became mobile, but that was once they reached 3 - 4 weeks.

As someone else said Eclampsia was my thought when you said the symptoms, timing is right too as she is at peak lactation.

I would want the vets to do more tests and definitely would be supplementing with Calo Cal D, but you say the Calcium injection made no difference.

This is definitely not normal.  What was her mothers and other female relatives maternal behaviour like?

I have known of a bitch kill one of her pups at this age when the pups were very vocal and distressed and Mum just didn't know what to do and got very stressed.  The pups were getting very hot as it was a heatwave (North Carolina in July), Breeders had left the door to the outside open and gone out, thinking it would cool the utility room the bitch was in, in fact it let the outside heat in and on their return from an errand they returned to screaming pups upset mother and one dead pup whose tongue had been bitten out.

I would take her away.  You don't trust her and she will know it which will worry her even more.  I, personally, wouldn't take the chance with a bitch like this.  I would wean the puppies using milk supplement and puppy porridge.  I think the RC puppy food mushes down quickly to a liquid and it's a good all-round food.  Good luck with your puppies.

Her mother was a great mum she reared the litter and was still letting them have milk at 8 weeks old. As far as I know no other siblings have been bred from, ithers from same line are all good mums.

She seems to have some sort of post natel depresion going on here.

I had a bitch like this last year. Even though the vets said it wasnt eclampsia i knew it was. She too had a shot of calcium and then I also gave her calocal D. I would muzzle her to feed pups for a few days and then she settled again and was a fab mother. There was only me and her in the whelping room and everything was kept very calm, curtains kept shut etc. I kept pups in a cat carrier (strong metal cage type) so they could be near her all the time and she could see and hear them but couldnt hurt them. I do think that when you take them away it is very stressful for mum so this way worked for me.

I hope everything works out for you. x

Thank you Danielle that sems to be quite a positive reply, I am keeping her close to puppys in a crate (puppies have whelping box) She doesn't like it of they move around and gets quite agitated with them so I cannot leave her alone with them.  I am supplimenting her with Calcium & Vitimin D perhaps this is not strong enough??

When I whelped a Friends bitch her calcium levels were so low (which is why she ended up with a C section for half the litter) I was told by the vet to give double the usual dose of Calo Cal D until they were not longer feeding from Mum, so in this case 8 weeks.

I gave one dose morning and one dose 12 hours later.  You will obviously need to supervise her so will need to set an alarm for a night feed.

Ive had one boxer like this and in her one and only litter she became more and more aggressive with them, she was put on pain meds and a sedative which got them through until 2 1/2 weeks when I started to wean them.

I didnt keep any of the pups and had mum spayed.

I agree wouldn't breed from that bitch again ans would think seriously about not breeding from the offspring.

My bitch would feed them but as soon as one started crying that is when she started to become aggressive. Like I said it took her a few days to get back to normal and I did start to wean the pups early so there wasnt such a high demand for her milk. This was my bitches second litter (5 puppies) and she was fine with her first litter (9 puppies).

I gave her the calcium twice a day at a double dose on vets advice until the pups were 6 weeks.

xx

I'm not an experienced breeder, but some (human) mums get post-natal psychosis.  They may be perfectly sane before having a baby and have no signs of psychosis in their past, but something happens hormonally and physiologically to them, causing them to experience an episode of psychosis - during which the baby is at great risk from the mother, as she often wants to kill it (believing it to be all kinds of things).  Mother and baby need to be hospitalised asap and kept under close observation around the clock.  Sometimes babies need to be taken away from mothers for their own safety.  Usually the mother emerges from this state after some weeks/months and is then absolutely sane again.

For mothers who have experienced one episode like this with one child, they are highly likely to experience another with future children. 

I'm sure hormonally much is happening in the bitch at this time too, and I wouldn't be surprised if this were the canine equivalent.

Rabid thats why I say Post Natal Depression, my wife suffered with this after the birth of our daughter, it took her a good few months to get over it with treatment, she was fine after this. Does make you wonder if there is a hormonal inbalance somewhere with bitches that go through this that we are missing, and maybe hormone treatment will do the trick (or prozak lol)

Danielle that sounds like my girl exactly! Its when they start crying or moving around the whelping box.

I'd consult the vet again or a different one.  Ask them to treat for Eclamsia??? just in case.

Is mum frightened of the pups or just not sure what their cries mean.  Has she had any sleep?  i noticed a difference in my girl when she had no sleep, nothing extreame but she did seem overwhelmed when baby cried for nothing and she couldn't work it out.  She moved away from them.  A good sleep sorted her out.  She didn't attack them but i had a small litter which I presume could make a difference.

Could ask the vet about giving her rescue remedy (or vet equivilent) just to relax her a little.

(See first post) It is a small litter (3 pups) vet gave her calcium shot yesterday evening and she slept through night last night as puppies slept 8 hours. (this may not continue now they are not feeding on demand) Someone has susgested giving her calms wonder if this is ok alongside calcium & vit D????

have left message with vet this morning just waoting for a call back

Hi Jasper

I had a similar experience with my last litter.

Mum was lovely with the puppies until around 10 days old when she would growl at them when they moved around or tried to suckle for too long.  Her calcium levels were checked as this was a large litter and although within the acceptable range were on the low side.  The vet didn't want to give a calcium supplement as he felt it would prevent her from producing her own calcium (?).  He also felt she didn't "look" eclampsic.  In hindsight I do feel that this was part of the problem and agree with some of the other posts regarding this.  She also became particularly protective of the pups again, having relaxed a little before that point.

Anyway, we only allowed her in with the pups under supervision.  Put her in a down stay whilst she fed them (she is a working dog as well as a pet and her training definitely helped) and just controlled everything around feeding time.  It was knackering so I understand how you must feel at this moment.  Also, began weaning the puppies at 2 weeks old.  Stay positive Jasper, things got much better within the next 10 days-2 weeks and she ended up becoming a lovely mum again, playing with them and having no problems allowing them to feed.  Her mum had been a fabulous mum, as had all her aunts, grandmothers, etc.

My friend's doberman bitch was also like this for around a week from 10 days old and she was a fab mum either side of this too.

Hope you find the same with your girl.

Thanks Zajak, did you not treat your bitch with any medications, or suppliments of any sort, did she just sort herself out on her own?

The vet gave her metacam which upset the puppies tums so I had to stop that.  The vet didn't want her to be supplemented with calcium in any way.  To be honest I would do things differently if I had the same thing again, that's how we all learn though isn't it?

She did have a herbal tincture from the holistic vet I use to help with milk flow but that was it.  She was also on hunger strike whilst feeding the pups so that didn't exactly help.  A very stressful time all round really.  Fast forward 2 weeks and hopefully everything will be fine but you do need to be particularly cautious in the meantime as the others have said. 

Thanks Zajak, we have a plentiful supply of milk (for now) but she won't eat so I am worried the milk will slow down. I will start weaning them from tomorrow and see how we get along.

Thank you to everyone for your replies, it has been most helpful.

Jasper

Sorry should have been more viglient and remembered what you put.

Yes there's no reason why you can't give it alongside Calio-D as either remedy is herbal.

There is a new natural product out called Zylkene, which is supposed to address stress and anxiety of all kinds:  http://www.zylkene.co.uk/

Maybe speak to your vet and see if it can be given to a nursing bitch?  It's totally natural but my vet says people have reported great results with it and they are using it when they can't use sedatives (dogs being flown abroad etc).  Maybe a DAP diffuser or collar too?

After reading this would you have Callo Cal D as part of your whelping kit? Also would you dose during labour if things are slow (provided there is not a pup stuck etc of course).

Louise

Thanks for teh link Rabid, will speak to vet when I go this evening.

Louise Yes for sure I will make sure I have that in the whelping kit and plenty of it, not sure I would give it during delivery but may change my mind when the time comes!

Trouble with Zylkene is that it takes a lohg while to get into the system. A friend of mine used it and the vet said it can take up to 6 weeks to see an effect. I have known, not personally, but there are bitches like this, who have to be muzzled while the pups feed and then taken away while the owner does the bitches job of cleaning them up etc. Pups are weaned early as possible and introduced to other friendlier dogs in the family to play with so they learn their social skills.

Its certainly not normal behaviour, but some bitches are not cut out to be mothers. If eclampsia has been ruled out I'm not sure what else it can be. I would keep on at the vet.

Has she had stitches removed yet ? they could be pulling and making her irritable and miserable.

Stiches are the disolvable type!

I haven't used Zylkene myself, but it does say on their website that it is 'fast-acting':  http://www.zylkene.co.uk/whatiszylkene.asp

I use Zylkene on my 11 year old bitch who has started having panic attacks at night. It works, fast! I give her the Zylkene around 4pm and it kicks in by mid evening.
As for Mum I would recommend keeping her muzzled when  she feeds the pups and then keep her away from them, 2 weeks is very early to wean and if she's got plenty of milk she will be uncomfortable also if she doesn't feed the pups. Is her temperature OK ? She could have the beginnings of Mastitis or some other infection making her feel low. I would be v concerned if she's not eating as she must feel totally drained??? I have a nursing mother here with 9 puppies who are 2 weeks and 2 days old, Mum is eating FOUIR times her normal food and is still losing condition.
I feel for you and hope that the situation gets better soon. Certainly if you manage to get Mum to eat or at least drink some Lactol or chicken broth it may help her to feel better.

Oh well thats handy to know. I always disregarded it from what the vet said but it would certainly be handy if it worked overnight :)

Thanks Belgianique, its really crazy as she will feed them in a muzzle she lays down and lets them feed to full, when they start to move she attacks even in the muzzle, but if I try to get her out of the pen she doesn't want to leave them. Going to ask vets to look at it being hormonal. There is no tempreture and bloods were fine last night!!