I am considering joining and was wondering how others who have joined have found it and has it been beneficial?

How long from application to it being granted?
How often are inspections carriedd out?
Do you get prompt help from the advisors if you have any queries?

I see breed clubs are now adding their own recommendations/restrictions to breeding practices of ABS's.

I spoke to a chap at the KC and what I was surprised about was that only those registering 3 or more litters per year would be inspected before being accepted.

Any comments appreciated.

> I spoke to a chap at the KC and what I was surprised about was that only those registering 3 or more litters per year would be inspected before being accepted.
>
> Any comments appreciated.

That sounds sensible to check on peiopel breedign larger numbers first.

As regards benefit no direct benefit other than joining so as to dissasociate myself from casual/poor breeding, especially now that individual breed requirements are being added.

> How long from application to it being granted?
>

i'd be interested to find this out as well.

Mine took a couple of weeks, but I have been an established breeder satistying all the Accolades (Expereince 5 or more litters, dogs in stud book, and breed club membership).

I have thought about this also but in in my breed, pups normally leave us around the 7 week period. I don't vaccinate them this early and I wouldn't be wanting to microchip at 7 weeks and permanent identification is a requirement of the ABS. I would be happy though to refund the microchip fee one the new owners get them done at 8 weeks. Does anyone know if this is possible?

Thanks Barbara.

I have heard there are still members who are basically puppy farmers which has put off many reputable breeders in my breed from joining, surely these must be picked up on inspection and the number of litters registered.

Permanent identification is a requirement for breeding stock, not the puppies, but I have mine ear tattooed at 7 weeks of age anyway.

As a breeder the tattooing gives me more peace of mind ( I encourage new owners to chip later) as my details will always stay on the pups I breed, so if they cannot locate the owner for any reason they can always get back to me.

Mine are only vaccinated prior to leaving if due to stay past 10 weeks.

I have thought about this also but in in my breed, pups normally leave us around the 7 week period. I don't vaccinate them this early and I wouldn't be wanting to microchip at 7 weeks

I could NEVER imagine selling a pup if it wasn't microchipped. How would you ever be able to trace it again? I for one have had more than one instance when I have been contacted and told a dog I bred is in rescue, go and get it quick -then when I asked for the chip number it's always turned out to NOT be one of mine. If I didn't have the number, how would I ever be able to prove anything?

I'm not an AB and to be honest know of many breeders coming out of the scheme, it is open to abuse, I know of breeders that advertise the AB's logo on their websites and are not AB's, they have been reported to the KC but nothing has been done, makes a mockery of the system.  Also know of breeders that are AB's who don't do the relevant DNA tests on their breeding stock but have never been picked up on it..........so why bother??

All my litters are micro-chipped before leaving too.

Thanks for all your commennts, great to hear the experience of others on the matter

I am on the scheme but I am seriously thinking of letting it lapse. The whole point to me was to guide people to good breeders when they are looking for pups. I never had a single enquiry when I had pups from the scheme and yet pups were going like wild fire on the free ads. So does Joe Public search the KC site or do they type in a free ad search. Makes you wonder. It was no help to me at all I'm afraid.

Maybe this should be mentioned to the KC, they need to have their website altered to ensure when people type in on a search engine e.g.  google *breed* puppies the KCABS is one of the top answers. i did this yesterday (just out of interest) and Champdogs was one of the top three.

having said that, i'm joining the KCABS as a personal choice to show my comitment to my breed and responsibilities as a breeder. I'm not joining it to help sell my puppies.

I'm lapsed at the moment, I was a member both to show my commitment to responsible breeding and because the KC message to the GP was 'buy from an accredited breeder' so I thought I'd better be one! There is nothing in the guidelines I wasn't doing anyway. But when I tried to register my singleton I found my girl's eye test was out of date by about a month, and there wasn't any handy test places in the near future, and as I planned to keep the puppy it seemed pointless to pay vast sums of money to get the eye test done at a vet hospital. Puppy has turned out probably not good enough to show or breed so I won't be breeding until I can hopefully buy in a puppy which will then be bred from when old enough if passes all health checks and is a good example of the breed etc etc. At that point I'll see about rejoining, but I might as well save my cash for a few years!

I joined not as what can the scheme offer me rather what can I offer the scheme.I get nothing from the scheme but hope that committed breeders whose long term aim is to leave their breed in a better state than when they entered their breed will lend their weight to any scheme that improves standards.......albeit it painfully and frustratingly slowly.

Diane

Don't know, but heard some terrible things about the inspection process.  A friend who breeds a few litters in her home was really upset by it.  A number of 'puppy farm' types are alleged to be accredited breeders so not the 'exclusive good breeders club' it should be unfortunately - KC after get more registration fees from people who register more litters.  I've looked at it, but at the moment can see no benefit and a lot of hassle - most of it unnecessary

A friend who breeds a few litters in her home was really upset by it.

How come? If you dont mind me asking.

A "breeder" (dare I use the word) I know of is a AB and to be honest she shouldnt even own dogs let alone be accredited. Because the breed doesnt have health tests that "need" doing to be apart of it she has been known to breed sick dogs suffering from a bad genetic illness and it doesnt bother her.

> Also know of breeders that are AB's who don't do the relevant DNA tests on their breeding stock but have never been picked up on it..........

I find that strange as I was picked up on the hip scoring for the current litter and had to point out that the dog was overseas, and send them the OFA result page before they would register the litter.

I had attached the DNA report for the sire, but not the hips and clinical eye test results as when I had used an overseas stud before and sent in hip and eye results was told they weren't relevant as not our scheme.

Of course they will only pick up on the tests that are required and not the ones that are recommended.

I've been a member for a few years now, despite never having bred a little, LOL :)

I joined because I wanted to see if it was possible for someone to join, not even being a breeder! 

Now we hope to have a litter, I do think it is something puppy buyers look for if they have educated themselves about buying a puppy.

> I never had a single enquiry when I had pups from the scheme and yet pups were going like wild fire on the free ads. So does Joe Public search the KC site or do they type in a free ad search. Makes you wonder. It was no help to me at all I'm afraid.

Oh that's pretty much par for the course.  I have never had an enquiry through the Kennel club listing or Pet Plan, generally only through breed club and my won website and possibly my website is found on the free ads breeder listings, which may help to steer the more researching kind away from the ads.

I am waiting to join but refuse to do so until they tighten up on the health test results. What is the point of insisting that relevant health tests are done but allowing breeders to ignore the results? As it stands at the current time, I could have a hip score of 100 and an elbow score of 3 on my bitch but still breed from her because I have done the tests! I was promised at Crufts that the KC are looking into this and it will change. I wait and see but am not holding my breath as I might die waiting!

> As it stands at the current time, I could have a hip score of 100 and an elbow score of 3 on my bitch but still breed from her because I have done the tests!

Yes but it will have made you look and then knowingly breed from dogs with recorded health issues...for which you can be sued.

Ignorance is not always bliss....a simple safeguard for buyers.

As and when the KC bring in new initiatives its the Accredited Breeders who will pilot these.
There has to be some kind of classification for the future, which singles out those who are not totally ignorant of canine genetic disease and good breeding practice. Something the majority of one off breeders seem to share ...................and they are the ones who make up the bulk of pedigree puppy production.

A friend who breeds a few litters in her home was really upset by it.

How come? If you dont mind me asking.


I think if you look in the archives here there was an awful lot of stuff on this forum, also if you look on a sheltie forum my friend commented on there...she said

To say I now feel like Big Brother is watching me is an understatement. The questionnaire the advisor had to complete was several pages long and the questions I had to answer were, in my opinion, more relevant to a commercial breeder and ce...rtainly not appropriate for a hobby breeder, e.g. Breeding or Boarding Licence? Local Requirements? (meaning have I discussed my breeding activities with my local authority!!!), sight of a register of all dogs viewed, sight of formal breeding records, emergency procedures, risk assessment - the list goes on. I pointed out to him that my dogs live in the house, I'm a hobby breeder, not a commercial breeder, and breed on average 2 litters a year, if that, but that doesn't seem to make any difference to the records I have to keep and the procedures I have to follow. I've just received my letter back saying that my continued membership has been approved on the basis that I prepare a formal system of breeding records within 60 days and confirm in writing that these have been done together with supporting documentation!! I just wish I knew what they mean by formal breeding records and how far back I'm supposed to go. Needless to say, at the moment I'm on the verge of resigning from the scheme.

The interesting thing is that during our conversation I discovered that the "Advisor" had no knowledge of breeding or showing but used to work as a vet for DEFRA

Penny.

I know who you are on about now...shocking. :/

What gets me is she breeds 1-2 litters a year yet there are breeders pumping out litters on the ABS loads of litters in not great condition. Why are they not checked out?

There has been interesting discussions elsewhere about the scheme - personally I feel if significantly improved it would be a step in the right direction.  However, it's very much aimed at show bred dogs - perhaps rather than 'commercial' or 'puppy mill' breeders.  Most people who are in favour of the scheme haven't a clue about other areas.  Yes it would be great to reduce the poor breeders and those who are churning poorly pups out with profit as motivation (profit? what profit?).  At a time when it was mooted that ALL breeding should be controlled by the KC I asked about 'other registers' and breeds not recognised by the KC.  I was treated to a rant about people needing to do their homework and puppy buyers not being 'taken in' by these registers!  The register I was discussing was the ISDS - an extremely reputable register since about 1903.  Dogs on the ISDS register are, in fact, eligible for KC registration.  However, many people with working sheepdogs aren't interested in the KC and don't want their dogs registered by them as they have their own register.  However, this went over the top of the heads of those who are insisting they know 'everything'. Then they said that if they weren't KC registered they were outside the remit.  Where it leaves breeders who may breed ISDS and KC registered dogs - but not necessarily registering on both I don't know as an accredited breeder should register all their dogs.... Now the border collie is a weird dog - I have a working sheepdog (actually both her parents are KC registered but she's on the working register as a WSD!) and I have an ISDS registered dog - the certificate states that he is a 'working sheepdog', that certificate entitles him to become a 'Border Collie' - or rather to go on the breed register.  Now his sire is 'dual registered' and his dam is ISDS only.  It's very complicated and the scheme should reflect reality!  What about if I wanted to be an accredited breeder but I also wanted to do agility (and perhaps even breed) working kelpies.  Why should I not be able to do that? If my young 'WSD' is good enough why should I not breed from her?  Yet if I was in the accredited breeder scheme I would - technically - not be able to do either.  It's not satisfactory!

Penny.

I know who you are on about now...shocking. :/

What gets me is she breeds 1-2 litters a year yet there are breeders pumping out litters on the ABS loads of litters in not great condition. Why are they not checked out?

Yes, and other people were rejected because the inspector didn't like the dog's bed (leather sofa) or that the dogs didn't have enough sleep (person didn't sleep well - but dogs able to sleep), that they didn't have a separate basin to wash the dog bowls (they only had two dogs I think) etc etc

The person quoted is a responsible owner and breeder, who dotes on their dogs, yet was intimidated by the amount of rubbish asked to produce ... meaningless rubbish I add!  If it improved welfare, reduced irresponsible breeding, made people responsible for the dogs they breed no-one would mind...but it doesn't

I've just had my ABS inspection ( Bill Lambert came out to do it ) - it was not in the least distressing, 'big brotherish' or any of the other things that are being suggested on here - he met all my dogs - looked at where they slept, the food preparation area and  their excercise area, he went through my contract and  puppy buyers booklet - we then had a long chat about the world of dogs in general - the kind of thing that most doggy people do once they're sat down with a cup of tea !! - there is a lot of myth and untruths about what the inspection involves   - to be honest anyone who keeps their dogs decently and breeds with a good standard of care has nothing to fear.

He most certainly did not expect and was not looking for professional boarding or breeding kennels type of facilities ( all my dogs live in the house ) - just basic GOOD dog care  !!

Yvonne 

I've just had my ABS inspection ( Bill Lambert came out to do it )

I think that you were lucky - mostly inspectors have been ex Defra vets with incredibly limited experience of dogs, of home situations and even of breeding.  There has been an incredible amount of 'feedback' and I think as a result Bill has been very busy inspecting.....

Like many folk in a place of authority they don't all deal with it in the same way, the inspections should be carried out by breeders who have genned up on what the KC expects and I thought that was the case, I can understand DEFRA going around large breeding kennels but not the hobby breeder who only has the occassional litter.

My decision to join is now very much up in the air.

I've just had my ABS inspection

Interesting. What was asked about whelping areas? I'm seriously considering joining now.

We had our inspection a few weeks ago, after nearly 3 years of being on the scheme, and it was not an unpleasant experience. We had a good long chat about things, went through the paperwork, she inspected where the dogs are kept, took photos and played with the litter of puppies that we had at the time. My one bug bear was that she asked my opinion on how the scheme could be improved and when I said that IMO I thought it wrong that anyone could go out and buy a bitch, as in the case of someone who I knew, breed from her less than 6 weeks later, and become an Accredited Breeder having had no experience of the breed what so ever. I feel that you should have least have owned the Breed your Accredited for a while, so that you know and understand the breed. I get lots of calls from people wanting advice about the Breed via the KC website and think well how can you give advice if you've not had the breed that long.

I guess this is where the accolades come in handy. I see so many people in the Kennel Gazette having been accepted as AB that don't even have the breed club accolade, let alone the experience and stud book ones.

He has accolades for his other breed, but there are no seperate ones for each breed, so a quick look at his profile and he looks like he is an experienced Breeder of all the Breeds he's Accredited to.

I think each Breed you are Accredited for should have a seperate set of Accolades so that people can see just how experienced you are in the Breed they are interested in.

To get the breed club accolade you have to be a member of at least one club for EACH breed -so at least it shows some interest above that of the people not interested in anything but making money.

I invited the AB team out to give a talk to our breed club last year and one of the points brought up was...

The internet misinformation regarding inspections!!

He said this urban myth has spread like wildfire and no such 'commercial type, overbrearing, dictatorial' treatment would be tolerated not required. He loves to quote the "Two sinks" as the bain of their life and is utter twaddle!

Discrediting the scheme usually comes in two main hits...puppy farmers use it....(over 400 people have been booted off)
and the "two sinks" thing!!

I dont think anything to do with the admin of dogs is perfect but Id rather support the scheme than contest it....after all I have nothing to lose, like brainless Ive been doing it all for decades and Ive no probem with making it official. If enough people like us join we will seriously dilute any 'not so good ones'.

Discrediting the scheme usually comes in two main hits...puppy farmers use it....(over 400 people have been booted off)
and the "two sinks" thing!!


Still too many on there in Wales and thats why i refuse to join. The inspections should not be booked if people have nothing to hide then they should just turn up. People with 50 breeding bitches being allowed on the scheme is wrong in my opinion...why would anyone want 50 breeding bitches

He loves to quote the "Two sinks" as the bain of their life and is utter twaddle!

I've kept the DW article that said this. But it doesn't change the fact that quite a few of us (out of people on here, certainly myself and kayc) READ the report given that mentioned this (dog bowls washed in same sink as the owner's dishes), mentioned that the poor dogs were sleeping on a sofa and not in a dog bed etc etc and the breeder was failed -we saw it with our own eyes.

We have our inspection in a few weeks:

We have only the one sink in our kitchen where the dogs bowls are washed
We also have no kennels as our dogs live in our living room on our sofa's and in our bed

We are now worried we won't pass, has anyone on here in the same boat as us passed this inspection?

Ring Bill Lambert with your concerns,he would prefer that to speculation.

We have our inspection in a few weeks:

We have only the one sink in our kitchen where the dogs bowls are washed
We also have no kennels as our dogs live in our living room on our sofa's and in our bed

We are now worried we won't pass, has anyone on here in the same boat as us passed this inspection?

My friends does the same and she passed the inspection.

Discrediting the scheme usually comes in two main hits...puppy farmers use it....(over 400 people have been booted off)
and the "two sinks" thing!!

I went to an AGM that was having a talk by Bill Lambert on the AB Scheme. I was not impressed and asked the question of Bill Lambert why couldn't they have a different type of scheme like stopping the 'farmer' type that just mass produces puppies without any care instead as they will still allow them to register with the KC. He was very evasive so I said 'really what you are saying is it is about the money' to which he replied 'yes'. At that point I walked out as I had heard enough. I truly believe that the puppies should only be KC registered if all health tests for the breed are done and then we wouldn't need the ABS as all puppies registered would technically be produced under ABS conditions. We have an ABS member in our breed who produced a litter of 15!! and seven months later had another litter from the same bitch and produced 11. The KC were quite happy to register all pups under the scheme. To me that is an appalling abuse of the poor bitch. So yes, I am discrediting the scheme. BTW the breed clubs will not allow her a membership!!!

I thought they would only register 1 litter a year from any bitch?

That's only if you're a licenced breeder.

> Still too many on there in Wales

I'm sorry but just because there are a lo of puppy farmers in certain parts of the UK does not mean that decent breeders don't happen to live there too.

How can breeders be discriminated against or deened 'suspect' based on Geographical location.

One of our top breeders is in mid wales.

> We have an ABS member in our breed who produced a litter of 15!! and seven months later had another litter from the same bitch and produced 11.

Disgraceful :-(   The only thing on this person's mind is money, clearly... Far too many breeders go on with back to back matings and no one batters an eyelid.. Poor bitch...Surely in certain breeds, in the main most of the breeds there should be one clear season in between each litter..
For sure there will be exceptions, like the TM which tend to only have one season in a 12 months span..

I'm sorry but just because there are a lo of puppy farmers in certain parts of the UK does not mean that decent breeders don't happen to live there too.

How can breeders be discriminated against or deened 'suspect' based on Geographical location.

One of our top breeders is in mid wales

I am not saying there aren't good breeders in Wales. I live in Wales myself but I do not know about puppy farms in other areas so can only speak for this area.

The guy down the road has 50 breeding bitches and the other kennels down the road breed every season reg and un reg alternatively. Both ABS members and both puppy farms in my opinion.

Someone on a free ad site has a litter of frenchie pups that are DLCR   reg  and claims to be an accredited  breeder  that cant be right ?

Probably isn't Kennel Club Accredited, but if you know of people who are or claim to be and are clearly not breeding within the rules report them to the Kennel club, action is taken.

I've just had my ABS inspection

Interesting. What was asked about whelping areas? I'm seriously considering joining now.

He just asked me to show him where my pups are born and raised ...so I showed him my spare bedroom ( where they are born ) and the dining room where they are moved to at 3 weeks - and that was fine !- my dogs are all house dogs - they all sleep in the house - we have no separate facilities ( well we have a utility room where we keep the dog food and wash up their bowls etc ) - Like most I do have some issues with the ABS ...and I voiced them !! .... but I joined because I think we do need a clear way of separating the wheat from the chaff that puppy buyers can easily understand - a kind of kite mark of quality  and yes I know that there are some that don't deserve to be on there but we need to be highlighting the 'bad apples' if we know about them and getting them kicked out ! - lets face it most of us already breed to the standards required by the ABS - why not have a badge of excellence that others can understand ?- I believe it's going to come anyway as part of the  the Dog Advisory Council recommendations - so why not join now ? .

I'm proud of my dogs and the pups I breed -  I bet all of you are too - those of us who are doing it 'right' should be distinguished from those that could not care a  flying fig and at the moment   the ABS is the best and clearest way of doing this that we have .

Yvonne

My reasoning exactly.

I am proud of my dogs and puppies and hate the way at present I almost have to be ashamed to admit to being a breeder, because in the general public's eyes we are a necessary evil at best, and of course the only reason to breed surely is for the money.