hi my puppies are 5 days old and the bitch and they are doing really well :) ...well the problem is that it wasnt like that at the start as the first one that was born was malformed and stillborn,second one came along and he was fine...she had another stillborn which neck was very thin and then went on to have 5 more healthy pups...she had 8 all in all,2 stillborn and 6 healthy pups :)
day 3 my partner looked in the whelping box to find one dead :( at first we thought she crushed it as she has been very clumsy and sits on them when she moves to another place in the whelping box...so i have been watching her 24/7 from then on and hooking out pups that she sits on and sleeping on the kitchen floor so i can hear them too...since the day 3 pup died,i was absolutely devastated and it feels like im loosing my marbles lol because of hardly any sleep..so scared that im gonna loose one...i read a post on here thats dated well back to 2002 that someone found there dead puppy at day 3 with milk out of its nose and that she had a post mortem on the pup and it was it drunk to much and chocked,so thinking now that maybe the bitch didnt crush the pup but it died that way too..just hope no more end up like this of mine...i will never be having another litter again as its too much heartbreak for me!!

So sorry about your loses, breeding is a 24/7 zombie life, I'm glad you are sleeping near your litter and watching constantly, it has to be done I'm afraid, it's how we make sure they all survive. Make sure someone can take over so that you can get a few hours sleep in the daytime, your no good to man or beast if you get no rest yourself.

I hope there are no more loses, it is most probable that the 3rd pup was sat on by mum or had other problems, who knows for sure, but just keep watching as you are and hopefully the ones left will soon by running all over the place bringing you much joy. :-)

So sorry to hear you lost some, yes I'm afraid it is a 24/7 watching them thing for at least the first few weeks, it only takes a few minutes for mum to squash one by mistake, but hopefully with two of you, your partner can take a turn so you can get some sleep. It's not easy, but good luck!

thanks guys i hope all is ok with the others too and will intend to sleep in the kitchen with them for at least another few weeks...my other dog had a litter five years ago and all survived and it was all plain sailing :) so it has been a shock to the system this time round!

So sorry to hear of your loss and do understand your worries about the other pups.  From our limited experience, I would think the pup was probably crushed.

I've lost two pups through crushing.  Both times I've been in the room (the girls are closely supervised 24/7) and sitting on the floor next to the whelping box (looking into the whelping box i.e. 3 inches away).

First time Mum had nine and was sitting up feeding (semi-lying), she shuffled her bottom backwards and I immediately noticed I could only see 8 pups.  Lifted Mum up and there was a little girl lifeless underneath with milk pouring out of her nose.  Nothing I could do for her, happened in the blink of an eye.

2nd time, Mum was also semi recumbent and feeding.  All four pups were poking out from under her chest, Mum lifted a front paw to adjust her weight and put it straight onto one of the pup's side just behind the ribcage.  Same scenario, lifted her leg off him, picked him up and milked poured out his nose and he passed away, no noise, nothing.  Happened in seconds.

I think that with a full tummy it isn't hard to compress the stomach enough to cause milk to flow out of the tummy with some force and straight onto the lungs especially if a more "vulnerable" part of the puppy i.e. just behind the ribcage is the part that feels the brunt. 

It is common for pups to drink their fill and more especially if milk is in abundance and they are greedy.  Although they don't have a fully developed gag reflex at that age, a healthy pup that is full to the brim will have a little milk bubble from the nose and showing around the lips.  The main worry when that happens if you are paranoid is with inhalation pneumonia.  There is not sufficient milk to cause sudden death through drowning.

Sorry that's depressing reading, just wanted to reassure you that the other pups (assuming no other worries) should be OK as I think it's most likely Mum did crush the pup.

I always stay with my Mum's pups and when I leave the room for the bathroom etc. I take Mum with me.  Still can't help think though that despite close supervision there is room for split second disasters to happen despite our best endeavours.

Good luck with the best of the litter.

According to the book of the bitch, left to their own devices about a third of pups would die from crushing, getting chilled, not getting fair goes at the milk bar.

We as breeders try to reduce the death rate with our care, but unfortunately there will always be losses.

In species that have multiple births nature has built in the expectation of most not surviving to adulthood.

Sometimes people are lucky and if not breeding more than once or twice assume that all breeding will be easy, if you continue at it longer there will also be disasters, C sections, dead pups and worst of all dead mothers.

> Sometimes people are lucky and if not breeding more than once or twice assume that all breeding will be easy, if you continue at it longer there will also be disasters, C sections, dead pups and worst of all dead mothers. <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif">

Have had my share of disasters and C sections.   I am not sure how I would cope with losing a mum.  I always feel for people on here losing their girls, it would be my worse nightmare.  I don't think I could ever breed again.

> I don't think I could ever breed again.

I don't know if I could continue either, but know people this has happened to and they did breed again

thanks for all your responses :)...it is now day 7 and the pups are doing really well...mum still clumsy but im there to hoink them out if she sits on them...actually now the mum waits for me to rearrange the pups to the middle of the whelping box before she gets back in there,its like she knows im helping them and her lol :)

Yep that is what Inka used to do, wait for hubby to get them all in the middle.