I acknowledge that I'm in a grumpy phase at the moment but I'm becoming increasingly annoyed by more and more topics being dragged into a debate about training with electricity and the same poster who appears to be running a campaign to convince us all (but who makes no contribution whatsoever to any other subject):

* If I worship in a faith and church of my choosing is it ok for someone of another faith to keep interrupting our services to tell us about their God?
* Should a vegetarian be told, over and over again, that they should try meat?
* If I'm a member of a global parenting group is it ok to tell me that the answer to all my problems is that I should smack my child, despite this being against the law in some countries where our members live?
* If a member of your quiz team answered BLUE to every question, how long would it be before you asked them to leave?
* If one person's view is universally unwelcome should they be excluded from participating?  (Remember Nick Griffin from the British National Party on Question Time!)

Freedom of speech is important, and I defend an individual's right to express him/herself BUT on a forum such as this is it unreasonable to expect a level of self-censorship?  Without self censorship or moderation is there a time when they 'win' and rest of us simply move elsewhere?  Or have I got it wrong - do you welcome the opportunity to keep restating your 'kind training methods'?  Do people like him/them actually keep this forum lively and interesting?

> Do people like him/them actually keep this forum lively and interesting?

No , ban 'em .

> rest of us simply move elsewhere?

No don't - this is a brilliantly informative forum . Kick out the Trolls !!

I know what you mean, I have the person on ignore but when you read a thread you can't see his post but you know what is being said and I have to stop reading that thread. Irritating to say the least but perhaps I am becoming more intolerant in my old age. What makes it worse it is advertising and the continued posts are to draw you to his website - does not work with me but I bet he catches no end of casual readers, as others are not allowed to advertise on this forum I am surprised he is allowed to continue to do so.

> Without self censorship or moderation is there a time when they 'win' and rest of us simply move elsewhere?

Well, the only person left now that can do anything about these type of people is Admin, i'm sick the back teeth of going through postings to see many hidden posts, knowing full well what they contain :-(

I'm sorry but I have sent a PM to Admin about these people and have no had a reply? Why not?
I do however feel very sorry for the mods on here, especially the behaviour/training threads who have to keep dealing with the reports we are all making - Sorry..

If something is illegal in part of the UK then surely to keep promoting it on a UK site is wrong? Maybe i'm missing the point on this here? But to use a shock collar on a dog in Wales is illegal, and to promote someone to use one would be aiding and abeting... We don't know where all posters reside so really its best practice for this forum to take the stand and ban anything which promotes this method of so called training...

> I acknowledge that I'm in a grumpy phase at the moment

Ditto that from me then, maybe the grumpiness is a catching?

> Freedom of speech is important, and I defend an individual's right to express him/herself BUT on a forum such as this is it unreasonable to expect a level of self-censorship?  Without self censorship or moderation is there a time when they 'win' and rest of us simply move elsewhere?  Or have I got it wrong - do you welcome the opportunity to keep restating your 'kind training methods'?  Do people like him/them actually keep this forum lively and interesting

I keep saying I won't reply any more - the poster in question knows my views on the methods employed by that poster - but then I realise that Champdogs comes up near to the top of the list when people are searching the internet for a particular topic - it;s how I found the site - and then I worry that others may see the answers posted by him and think that is the right way to go so have to put another side across so his answers aren't the only ones people find in their search.

It's very frustrating and annoying that I feel I have to keep on posting replies that I have repeated time and time again to him but if it helps to stop yet another dog from being exposed to the electric training then it's worthwhile. I think he is trying to wear us down so here's hoping it doesn't work.

I'm also cheesed off that posts involving electricity are appearing on every kind of thread, unsolicited.

I'm just waiting for an agility competitor on here to post a brag about how their dog came 2nd in a major show, and for Someone to pipe up saying "Ah but if you'd used one of these, you would have won!!!"

I have been told that we should be complaining to Admin about this. I shall do so tomorrow, and hope I get a response.

Yep time these kind of posts or posters were banned.Besides the risk of some people being incorrectly convinced he has a point it is really getting boring hearing one answer to every question in the universe

> i'm sick the back teeth of going through postings to see many hidden posts, knowing full well what they contain

Yep, me too, I definately do not come to CD as much as I used to and would not be happy about recomending anybody else to come & join up either, for fear of them falling for all the speil about the aversive techiques & trying them out :(
I was getting good at ignoring all the hidden posts but seeing other peoples responses sometimes rouses my curiosity so much I have to have a peek and sometimes (as in a current thread on the general board) I feel I have to respond in defence of a fellow poster.

I wish these people would go away, they are dragging Champdogs into the gutter :( :(

I have had him on ignore for weeks -and I don't ever look to see what he has said, but it doesn't take much guess work anyway. Yes it is LONG overdue that he was banned (along with his side kick Denis). When people like Isabel could be banned for much less, why is this person still here? We're NOT just talking about a difference of opinion, we are talking about something that all animal welfare organisations, the KC and many entire countries all agree on is unacceptable! Like I have said before, it's not even remotely comparable to disagreeing about whether heelwork should be trained with a jerk on the lead or by using a clicker -we are talking major welfare issues here.

I'm starting to wonder if the only solution is for all those of us that PAY for a website on CD to refuse to renew when the time comes up, unless AP is removed from the forum. I've had enough. CD used to be the responsible place, now I'm starting to get unhappy about being associated with it -word will soon spread that this is where electric shock collars and prong collars are promoted on every thread.

And if I don't post again -you can all work out why!!

I am sure the forum is tarnished by allowing this troll with his ugly ethics to remain a member.  If you visited this forum and one of his posts was amongst the first you saw would you want to stay?

How cruel does his advice have to be before he's kicked off?!

Marianne is right, something radical needs to be done to stop this person/people using us to get their name/business placed higher on search engines by virtue of the number of comments he/they get on here.

Every time we answer or comment ........up goes his placement.

>Every time we answer or comment ........up goes his placement.

And yet if these outdated and inhumane views are allowed to remain unchallenged anyone new coming to the site will believe they're acceptable. So either the tedious, repetitive disagreement goes on and on, or the posts must be stopped in the first place.

I think we are all fed up in seeing continual posts and threads turned into zap your dog!

Yes, there is freedom of speech, but one thing admin certainly can do is delete the continual Youtube videos that appear constantly from some of these posters, the rest of us do not post training videos, especially on something that 90% of the board feel distasteful.

I feel these should definitely be stopped, we are information exchange, not watch this video.

Right folks - given your comments, what would you be happy for me to do about a recent post about cropping ears........??

Jo (Mod - who is doing her best to keep the peace!!)

TBH Jo I am getting confused as there are now at least 3 threads discussing this man and his ghastly equipment and methods and I have almost forgotten which thread is which and one of them was started by someone requiring help. If you come in via active topics you have no idea which thread you are on.

I must admit that I was surprised at the mild response this proposed mutilation received !!

It is one I missed Sassinak - think perhaps there are two reasons why it would not cause a big explosion is (A) it is illegal in the UK and (B) we perhaps though it was yet another Troll.

> I must admit that I was surprised at the mild response this proposed mutilation received !!

I think most of us who show know that it is normal practise in the USA/Canada etc, where the poster lives, think the reaction would e different if ti was someone intending to do this to a pup before importing it here to UK..

I agree that your stuck either way, I think the best solution is to ignore and if enough stop rising to the baitthey will go eventually, the same thing has happened with several posters who only ever turn up when the chance to slate show people arrise, people got bored of flogging a dead horse And stopped responding and I've not saw them since. Yes there may be a few post where they are left unchallenged but if the overall goal of them bogging off is achieved I think it's the best answer.

I feel yourself and our other mods are in a very difficult position.

This is a public forum where people come on for advice and to give advice. When the zap brigade first arrived I stamped my feet and didn't want to be here, but then I realised there is no point in walking away or putting them on ignore, ok I can't see them, but what good is that, we need to keep fighting against them and showing people how to train their dogs properly. I know it gets tiresome I inwardly grown every time I see them, but I think we all have to seriously stand up for dogs and the right way to train, more so than ever.

Once zappers of all types become banned, and I believe they will, admin and our mods can happily shoo them away from advertising their wares and methods, I do think that the TOS is constantly breached, by the videos and equipment being advertised, there is a difference between posters asking for advice on collars etc for their dogs to the zap brigade coming on board and pushing their wares forward with no-one asking for them to me that is blatant advertising.

Re: The ear cropping the poster wasn't offering for places to illegally have ears cropped or trying to entice others to do so, just mentioning their dogs ears were cropped, which our members happily put across the legalities of, if someone is pushing something illegal the posts can easily be deleted, in this case the poster wasn't. IMO you don't need to do anything. :-)

Re: The zappers we all just need to unite, rather than stamp our feet. :-)

> Re: The zappers we all just need to unite, rather than stamp our feet

What do you suggest...engage in combat and thus raise their search engine profile...(their goal)

Or Ignore..... but this leaves so many casual readers to think we are condoning by being passive on the subject?

Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea.

I have just PMd admin with the suggestion I made on the last (I think) of these threads - alter the TOS so that CD is a forum which supports only positive, modern methods and does not condone the use of ecollars/prongs/etc.  Then we have a clear, firm stance, visible to all, about how we approach training - and a tool by which to stop the zappers.

Works elsewhere, I don't see why it can't work here.

> Re: The zappers we all just need to unite, rather than stamp our feet
>What do you suggest...engage in combat and thus raise their search engine profile...(their goal)
>Or Ignore..... but this leaves so many casual readers to think we are condoning by being passive on the subject?

How about a POLL - open for a fixed period of time and to existing members only to prevent hijack - so that we can state our agreement, or not, to the use of aversives such as e collars and prong collars. 

From then on we could simply refer all new members to this POLL and an appropriate STATEMENT to say that the majority of users support kind reward based training for our dogs.  In that way the zappers only receive one 'group reply' and we avoid lengthy debates.

Would that work?  Who knows how to do a POLL?

Good idea Nikita. Works for me.

What do you suggest...engage in combat and thus raise their search engine profile...(their goal)

Or Ignore..... but this leaves so many casual readers to think we are condoning by being passive on the subject?

There are all sorts of ways we can do this, each to their own preference, here are some of mine, but hopefully there will be other brainwaves on the subject................

The way we can combat the search engine is to try not to name the product that way it doesn't come up, so perhaps we could just all call them zappers or other words instead, or just say 'the product spoken of?' that will immediately cut down their goal along with the advertisements which crop up here via google. (I will do my best to do this from now on.)

As long as we are not offensive I'm sure our mods will have no problem in along with ignoring some posts, which we can get along with on most threads, the times when an OP may get the impression that we agree or do not condone said products a one word reply of zzzzzzzz, or such may well suffice? :-)

I also think as it does get tiresome having to repeat, we should just cut and paste a reasonable reply on the effects and outdated training ideas from these products. I'm sure if we look back we can find numerous posts to use.

Good idea Nikita

Hi all

Have just read the first post, sorry short on time!

Anyway I'm on here not to get into rows or anything (that just happens) or to belittle anyone. I know some of you complained about a recent reply to a post by another memember but she seems unconcerned by it so I assume not a problem.

I feel I have been polite and even in the face of some quite harsh comments have remain polite.

My reason for being here is just dog related! I believe 100% in my training and the many benefits it has and I want dogs/people to have access to information to help them.

Adam

You obviously are directing your post to someone that I dont know. Re religion - I think we are all entitled to our own views and no one has the right to shove their views on anyone else. I listen to Jahovah's Witnesses and one of the people I most admire as a good person is one, Im not and we agree to disagree on that one.

Most veggies have tried meat I expact, I have a step daughter veggie and I admire her conviction.

Global parenting - no idea what that is. I sat next to an 11 year old at a family meal who ate with his hands I had two boys I could take anywhere, I will not eat with them again - no manners and awful parenting skills - I blame the partents.

Answering BLUe - I would have kicked them out within 10 minutes - pratt!

Re BNP Nick Griffon - no they should not be excluided I dont like his views, Im from a multi cultural family he's an offensive wassak but I would defend his right to freedom of speech!

Re self moderating - ah the leader - depends if your moderation is the same as there's dosen't it. Some of us are more tolerant that others, as you can read I hate bad mannered children so I would be more outspoken on that issue than prehaps vegetarianism where I dont have much of a view. What I think we should all practice is tolerance - but Im not much good at that either- each to their own , but no one has the right to challange anyone on their beliefs in my personal opinion.

I would never use a shock collar on Whistler he's my baby and my friend - you train by patience and love I think.

Great idea Nikkita.

I think a constantly repeated, majority supported, blanket response every time that topic is pushed is an excellent solution. It does not curtail freedom of speech but it also shows that the majority here do not agree with the methods.

I don't use ignore- anybody that dismisses a whole tranche of professionals, labelling them' fools', cannot be taken seriously.

Adam,

I very much dislike the products that you use, in fact I would like to see them all gathered up and popped in a bin, but yes, you are always polite and take our criticism well which is why I don't personally class you as a troll, more a marauder of an outdated training method, which you completely believe in.

To try to push a device which has already been capped in Wales and is sure to follow in the rest of the UK makes no sense to me, you know it is only a matter of time.......

I know you would probably like us to say that posters should make up their own mind of which methods they choose, but we are dog lovers and your not going to get most of us on this board to ever put forward such methods as yours, no matter how well you dress it up, if you enjoy training this way so be it, nothing anyone can say or do will change that, but we will continue to fight against your efforts to have others using these methods I'm afraid, as nice and polite as you are. :-)

Good idea, Nikita :)

I'm against banning people unless they are rude and offensive (and don't adhere to TOS, which are Admin's rules not ours). Free speech (in general) is very important and I do agree with AP :) that he has put over his case, (whether we agree with his views or not) in a non-offensive manner. I would like to think that any member could disagree (politely) with anything on the forum without being banned just because they are in the minority of opinion :)

I would like to think that any member could disagree (politely) with anything on the forum without being banned just because they are in the minority of opinion :-)

I don't see how anything that is against the law in some parts of the UK could ever be brushed away as just a difference of opinion.

> I don't see how anything that is against the law in some parts of the UK could ever be brushed away as just a difference of opinion.

I totally agree !  Still baffled why they are allowed to continue to push these awful methods

> I don't see how anything that is against the law in some parts of the UK could ever be brushed away as just a difference of opinion

No-one is 'brushing it away' - but AP is entitled to his opinion. If he breaks the law, then he should be prosecuted.

> I don't see how anything that is against the law in some parts of the UK could ever be brushed away as just a difference of opinion

No-one is 'brushing it away' - but AP is entitled to his opinion. If he breaks the law, then he should be prosecuted.

I disagree and I am THIS close to leaving the forum AND cancelling my CD website. Would you want people here whose opinion was that Hitler was right, said so in EVERY thread, and say they were entitled to their opinion? There are opinions and there are opinions.

>AP is entitled to his opinion

Daisy, AP is entitled to his opinion but I think we are all entitled to a little respect.  It is the constant bombardment of his ONE opinion on large numbers of threads that is so disagreeable.  One or two replies from AP would be quite sufficient, and enable any poster to get a wide range of views instead of just being left with the one who shouts loudest and longest.

I offered up some alternative examples of haranguing behaviour in my original post and I can't believe that anyone thinks they are acceptable, so why is it ok here?  We have to draw the line somewhere and in my view AP keeps crossing it

> Anyway I'm on here not to get into rows or anything (that just happens) or to belittle anyone. I know some of you complained about a recent reply to a post by another memember but she seems unconcerned by it so I assume not a problem.
>

I am assuming that was your reply to me Adam. I wouldn't say I was unconcerned as personal attacks should not be mounted against anyone even if one doesn't agree with their point of view - it obviously upset others who replied in my defence and for which I thank them - but as it was unusual for you to reply in such a manner I did extend you the benefit of the doubt on that one but was surprised that you answered in the manner that you did :-) 

As you well know I totally disagree with the training methods you use but, as tedious as it may be putting up posts refuting the reasoning behind your beliefs, I do agree that you  put your POV across in a polite manner - with the exception of the one you made to me.

I'm more of a lurker than a poster, but have become increasingly irritated by the way that threads are being dragged in this direction, often away from the original topic. I also noticed that someone else (or not) had joined the site yesterday to post on the Katie Price thread that rubbing a dog's nose in its mess is a legitimate technique used by lots of trainers. I hope that people don't start leaving the site, otherwise this could end up being a very different kind of forum, and - given that a lot of people come on here looking for advice - that would really be to the detriment of a lot of dogs.

Marianne - please don't go.

Do you know apart from posters like Isabel who were banned for sailing too close to the wind (love you Izzy)

I can remember OneTwoThree (very knowledgeable poster) who was banned for saying if a dog came too close to hers she would kick it, many were shocked at the time and she was struck off for saying it, where on earth are those same morals that this board had, where on earth are they? Now it is ok to say some will zap a dog, will constantly be allowed to put up links and videos of methods and items just as bad if not worse than a kick.

I would advise everyone to stop looking at the videos now as admin are not removing them, I don't see why anyone should be allowed to advertise their trade.

I do so agree Carrington - it is the advertising aspect that upsets me, I do not want people new to the forum to see all this advertising for items I do not wish to be associated with. Left another site because I felt it encouraged the breeding of crossbreeds and designer dogs with only a cursory look at health, but this is far worse and just as harmful. Have stopped suggesting people join and I am now wondering if I should give it another rest and hopefully time to do a spring clean.

See that a new forum has been opened - not too clear on how it will help the situation because only moderators can start a thread - will they move a thread they consider controversial to that forum? Can't see how this is going to help with people who seem to turn any thread around so they can push their wares and videos. Perhaps I do not understand - not the first time - and as the announcement is locked you can't ask for clarification.

I wondered that Nova - and what about the threads that don't start off as controversial but are people asking for help?  Will they be both left in their original forum and restarted in the new one, or just moved?  If they were just moved then potentially, decent advice would be missed because people would not be looking for an answer to what could be a normal issue in a 'controversial' forum.

I do see why the mods have done it but not sure it's a great solution personally.

I agree!  Adding a "controversial" forum doesnt prevent Mr If you cant out-think it zapit, from hijacking threads and posting links that advertise his distasteful services!

I've always believed in the adage " I may not agree with what your saying but I'll defend your right to say it ", however, in this instance, I do think the blatent encouragement of the use of  the "device " by some posters should be banned. I don't think the posters should be banned, but neither do I think they should be allowed to go shouting from the ( Champdogs ) rooftops .

Shock collars and prong collars may not be a method advocated by the majority of members here but what is absolutely indisputable is, THEY WORK! 

If you want a forum that only allows postings of positive training methods, those forums surely exist.  Find one, go there and quit your whining.

Well if the forum will have such idiots as yourself I am happy to leave this - enjoy your CRUELTY FORUM folks

Marianne wait up I'm joining you

Farewell and Godspeed.

ETA:  And notice how I ignored the ad hominem attack.  Surely a violation of the TOS here.  That said, I am certainly not calling for the poster to be banned.

Really admin why are you allowing this purposfull provacation on old time members when i got a whole bunch of my posts removed merely for sticking up for myself, seems such double standards here :(

If you want a forum that only allows postings of positive training methods, those forums surely exist.  Find one, go there and quit your whining.

Whoa--I was going to ask what a WUM was, but I think I have my answer. So now it's ok to promote cruelty because it's a "training method?"

admin edit : if you wish to debate the pros & cons of e collars please do so here