has anyone ever appealled to the kennel club over scores??
we had our lab score recently and when the results came back our vet thought they had scored them wrong giving a scor of 3 foe each hip on sublaxion. Vet compare her plates to others he had from a 3/3 and a 2/2 and he said our looked much better (he has had much to do with hip scores) £90 to appeal is a bit steep!!
any ideas??

Not the Kennel Club it is the BVA - you can appeal and they will score again but if it is worse you are stuck with that. I would take no notice of what the vet says they are not trained to do the scoring and are often way out. What was the total score for each hip?

sorry meant BVA, her hip score was 5/5

That is within the breed norm so why would you want to retest?

probably wont, but vet said to think about it, her sire is 0/0 and dam 3/3 and 4 generations on sires side of 0/0 hips so not really that worried, thanks for you reply

I'd be pretty happy with a 5/5

Me too!!!

Just about to book a bitch in for hers to be tested so another few weeks of anxious waiting...

Think you would be best to accept the 5/5 and be happy with that. The scores are done by two independent specialists so a re-score is rarely better. the fact that the sire and dam may have been less means nothing as the score you get is not totally hereditary it can be that the dogs hips are such that they have been effected by all sorts of other things. I have known a Newifi who's dam and sire were both under the breed norm but when he was scored he was 98 in total although all the rest were also under breed norm.

I wouldn't appeal that score!  I did once want to appeal my Spanish imports as he was scored in Spain with a much better score and vets, knowledgable people couldn't believe his BVA score but in the end didn't bother.

I wouldn't even consider appealing a score 4 points lower than the BMS. Scores can vary so much as we know, even between littermates.

Id be happy with those scores. Took my girl last year and vet said they were not very good, wasnt expecting to hear anything back until after xmas period but i did just before and came back excellent! Was well chuffed and wanted to rub there noses in it, they didnt have a clue! Wont be going back to them for any more scoring as the alignment wasnt great either. In my non professional eye i thought they looked ok, snug in the sockets and no damage to the head and i was right.

I would be more than happy with that score.  Sometimes there are slight very slight differences that the eye alone may not pick up, and only by exact measuring of angulations can a score be made.. Most of us who have looked at numerous plates can have a rough idea of how the results will come back, but I don't think anyone could be accurate by just looking at a plate .

I had litter mates scored a couple of years ago. bitch came back 7:7 and her brother came back 3:3  I was delighted with both scores (although would have prefered girls to be lower obviously ;-) )  but looking at the plates, there was very little difference... maybe the, ever so slightest flattening of the head was noticable afterwards because we were looking for specifics and finetoothed the plates.. but that was only for my curiousity, not to appeal or even suggest anything untoward.,

I have known a few 0:0 dogs sire litters scored of 10 and above... not as uncommon as we would like to think..  Years ago, I had half sisters, same sire, low score, one girl was 6:7, the other was 45:45 :-(

5:5 is a very acceptable score . 

the fact that the sire and dam may have been less means nothing as the score you get is not totally hereditary it can be that the dogs hips are such that they have been effected by all sorts of other things. I have known a Newifi who's dam and sire were both under the breed norm but when he was scored he was 98 in total although all the rest were also under breed norm.

This happens because of the complex situation around HD - it is hereditary, but because there are at least 3 genes (probably more) involved you can be unlucky and have lines of good scores, but together (more often in 'outcross' matings) you can get the required genes come together in one or more of the pups.  We can only keep testing and look at relatives (not just sire and dam).  Many line bred dogs will continue to have good scores, but continue to carry down some of the genes.  Other factors can cause hip problems (I've seen a collie with bad hips through over exercise - but whilst it's similar to HD it's not actually HD)

> Other factors can cause hip problems (I've seen a collie with bad hips through over exercise - but whilst it's similar to HD it's not actually HD)

Just wondering what the differences were? How can you tell if poor hips caused by too much exercise? thanks

You can't tell what effect outside influences have on a dog who's hip have a propensity to develop HD because of hereditary factors..

Just wondering what the differences were? How can you tell if poor hips caused by too much exercise? thanks

Tough one, but vet may be able to tell.  In the instance I'm thinking of, pup was fine until owner taught him agility - up to 2'6" (height has since been reduced) and fast/furious before he was 6 months old.  Hips are now wrecked.  Owners Dad did admit that it wasn't HD as such - although initially they were trying to say it was - which is great for the breeder!  I would say a score of 98 was hereditary - it's so high.

A friend had a collie who had to have major surgery - in this case the ball and socket didn't meet at all, although they were perfect.  Femur had to be broken in 3 places to get the angle right!  Vet said this was a type of HD.  Post surgery the dog is 100% fit and has competed in agility for many years (must be 8 or 9 years old now).  Interestingly a person connected with the lines (not the actual breeder) was trying to say that the owner had allowed the dog to be pushed into door ways by other dogs and that was why the dog needed the operation.  What a load of rubbish!  Breeder accepted responsibility (not her fault) but it was the person who bred the dogs behind this mating...  I've heard it said that environmental factors can make an existing situation worse - true, but not always the case.  I think you'd need to know the history behind it before you could blame environmental factors.  Sometimes an injury can cause damage, but it can be difficult to tell the difference so I'm sorry it's not always possible.

Some conditions such as OCD can be caused by food and exercise (too much, too little).

Well, this is a coincidence--I have just come off the phone now with our vet re hip scores for my youngest dog. This veterinary practice came very highly recommended (I won't name them here but they will be very well known to many of you). They suggested a provisional score of 4/4, but the scores returned by the BVA are 7/5--still well under the breed average of 19, but annoying all the same.The view was that the scoring had been harsh, and of course might be reduced on appeal, or it could increase (unlikely but not impossible). So now I am pondering exactly the same thing: whether to take a pragmatic view and decide to stick with the score received, or to challenge it in the hope of a lesser score. I thought the appeal was £100, by the way...and any advice gratefully received!

I usually think of HD in much the same way as I do allergic reactions. You have a dog with possibility of developing HD or allergic reaction because of hereditary factors you have the action that stresses the hip or the allergen and one other factor that causes HD or a reaction. You know the dog, you may know the hereditary factor but it is the other thing that completes the circle and causes HD or allergic reaction.

Thing is of course that each vet practice sees the plates they take and the panel sees them all.  You could ask if the vet practice you use sends printed copies or a disc.  My own practice now sends discs (although apparently this was a big issue with the panel) so they can be viewed on a computer screen rather than trying to print off good images, now the results are much more as envisaged by the vets.  I'm sure this is right - my shep was said to have excellent hips and came back with 8:8 - not terrible but vets thought they would be much less.  Would be interesting to know if they saw on disc if the scoring would be different - her elbows came back 0 which was a relief.

Thanks PennyGC, I hadn't considered this and I will try to find out what format they use.

I hadn't either Jay15 - but they mentioned it and said they were getting more consistent results - you do need them to do digital xrays though ;-)

Penny - do you know where to get the details of a paper which suggests that at least 3 genes are involved in the heredity of HD?    I've searched, and can't find it.

Jo

To those of you with scores of 5/5 and the other with 7/5 i'd be more than happy with these, especially if they are still below the breed average. No person who does the x-rays can be exact with their predictions, tbh I don't think that they should even offer anything like possible scores, only if they are "very good, good, ok, pretty awful" etc..

So if you have anything like the above i'd leave be and not waste my time and money on an appeal.

It is always dangerous to take the word of the people 'giving a provisional score'.

A few years back now we had 3 dogs done at the same time.  1 was said to be excellent, 1 fair and the other so-so.  We travelled home very despondant.

When scores came back they were 4:3. 3:7 and 6:7 - all fairly similar and below breed average of 19 - so lots of worry for nothing.

If there are only a few points difference I wouldn't run the risk of appeal and being scored higher.

I have just received 2 scores back today... one girl is 5:5, the other is 4:4  and I am over the moon :-)

I can understand the OP feeling a bit peeved with a 5:5 from a 0:0, when breeding, we aim to improve.  In a sense, it stands to reason, you cannot improve on perfection.. but still producing a score well below the breed average (regardless of a vets opinion) is a good job well done :-)

Jo - I don't think that there is 'one' paper, I know that I've read a lot of stuff about HD and it all talks of multi genes, I can't remember where I read of at least 3 and probably more.  I read a lot but don't always keep it.  It's really why they haven't been able to get a DNA test - because of the complexity.  Somewhere I've read about the line breeding and why it can crop up in out crosses... all down to genetics. 

> at least 3 genes are involved in the heredity of HD

I believe that a Polygenic disorder like HD will probably have many genes involved. Here is an extract from the link below:

Hip dysplasia is a polygenic trait that is caused by many genes that control things like depth of hip socket, bone density, placement and strength of ligaments, tendons and muscles, size of femoral head, length and thickness of femoral neck, and so forth.

(And that doesn't take into account environmental factors either).

http://www.chessieinfo.net/polygenic-inheritance.htm

Polygenic disorders are notoriously difficult to develop simple tests for, plus the tests are likely to need to be different for each affected breed. That's why we try to factor in info from x-rays when planning litters. But you can never be sure what hip scores puppies will go on to get, parents with good hip scores may, when put together, be doubling up on genes that were previously hidden. The more genes involved, the harder it can get. All we can do is try to minimise the risk.

Yes, here's another one

http://petsurgery.com/caninehipdysplasia.html

This is interesting... Cindy Moore says

Most inherited traits in animals are polygenic. These traits do not follow patterns based on dominant/recessive pairs because polygenic traits are affected by many genes. Only some puppies will have the same combination of genes for a trait as the parents. Some will have a more desirable combination while others will have a less desirable pattern. As the number of involved genes increase, the possible outcomes also increase. In addition, remember that it is also possible for different genes to have a different level of influence on the trait, complicating the outcomes considerably. Predictions of a specific outcome from a particular mating involving polygenic traits is currently impossible.

In Corley and Keller's opinion, a dog with excellent hips but with more than 25% of its brothers and sisters affected with hip dysplasia is a poorer breeding prospect than a dog with fair hips and less than 25% of its brothers and sisters exhibiting dysplasia.

http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/medical/medical-info.02.html#l_240905

hi there all, thank you for your replies, have decided that even though we would have liked lower, we should be grateful!!
we own both the sire and dam of her and we were trying to create perfection her litter mates have come back 0/0, 2/2 and 3/3 so a good lot really. Health, type and temperement are our main aims and looking at it seems we are getting it right in the health stakes anyway, type is in the eye of the beholder and temprements are to die for. so all in all we a well chuffed. we have found a suitable stud for her also and he's a bit lower at 3/3 so lets hope things go from strength to strength. cheers all