hello again everyone,
                              please help me put my sisters mind at rest. she has just bought a 8 week old male blue staffy. the father of the pup was solid blue and the mother was blue brindle. they had 4 dogs in the litter and the other 3 pups had white markings and clear brindle starting to come through, my sisters dog looks solid blue but around his head and part of his legs theres a browny tint starting to show. she believes this is the start of the brindle colour where im convinced its just puppy fur which will eventually turn to the blue colour. please help us as all your comments will be welcome.
thanks james

I will watch the replies to this query with interest.

I have a breed that, if a blue pup is born, I can almost guarantee a fawn adult.  I will wait for replies from Staffie folk.

Yes, I will be interested as well, suppose it does not really matter to the owner but it is interesting that some breeds change colour from new born to puppy and others from puppy to adult. Like you I await the knowledgeable.

Well I'm not an expert on blue dogs, but have owned & bred other blue animals. Typically, they often develop a brownish tinge when about to moult; the old coat starts losing pigment shortly before it's replaced by new hair. The brownish hair also may look dry at the ends, or feel different in texture. Same applies to black animals as well - and both can also get 'rusting' from being in strong sunlight.

As far as I am aware, when dogs moult they start at the head and work backwards and down (I guess breeds may differ? as do species.... Rats for instance moult upwards and outwards from the belly, with the top of the head and the base of the tail the last to clear). So any brownish discolouration on the head might be an indication.

As to the brindling, being a Blue the brindling colour will be a cream/fawn colour [rather than a ginger/red as in black-based brindles], so if it is brindling coming in, it will be a different colour to the browning of moult or sunlight.

Hope this makes sense?

Brindles in my breed[dachsies] are born with the pattern/stripes, the lighter the back ground colour the more obvious the stripes.

Has she spoken to the breeder about the changing colour? What pattern if any is on the registration papers from the KC.

> What pattern if any is on the registration papers from the KC. <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20 height=10>

Now that would have no bearing whatsoever in my breed, at least in the Long Coat variety.

One of my boys is a registered dark brindle.  Looked almost black from a distance.  He wasn't so dark as he grew old enough for ringcraft, and getting out and about and socialised.

If you looked at his KC papers now, I'm pretty certain that you would think I was telling pork pies, and that they aren't his papers.

He is almost 3 years old now.  And a lovely dark red sable.

Colours are so difficult as they can change so much. In Malinois we have 3 -Fawn, Red and Grey. (Sadly the Grey is about to die out with only two left in the country that I know of -and they are littermates.) The fawns and the reds just cannot be told apart as pups -it takes about 2 years normally before you can be sure which they are.(Pups are born very dark brown, almost black.) Some breeders register all pups as reds, others register all as fawns. So I dare say MOST are registered incorrectly. :)

In Papillons, Red or Red Sable pups are born almost black and it does take a few weeks (or even months) for sure before you can tell what colour they will be. I also have one bitch who when born looked Tricolour like her siblings. Only as she grew the red on the face spread out and turned into sable -but the black on the body stayed black. She was also born with a narrow white blaze and that is now completely gone. No white on her face at all. Just like my Malinois called Dot because she had a white dot on her chest -that too vanished with age as smaller white markings so often does.

Bit like Pomeranian's.  Blacks can have a brown tinge and sometimes when you look near the roots it can be almost blue.  We have Wolf Sables, now Suzie was a real wolf sable as a pup but now at three she is almost cream!

Eek!  I know what I want to say / explain regarding coat colours, but I'm not very good at putting it into words I'm afraid!

Essentially, I'm pretty sure it is genetically impossible to have a solid blue SBT without brindling; the blue coat colour is a dilution of the black / brindle gene.
Similarly it is genetically impossible for a solid black SBT to be produced without brindling.

ETA, I've just noticed James, you've also mentioned that the pup is produced from blue sire to blue / brindle dam, therefore by my reckoning, pup is more likely to be fawn in colour, i.e. even more dilution occurring.

Have a little read of this website, very useful info regarding the genetics behind coat colouring.

http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/brindle.htm  - brindling explained.

http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/dilutes.htm - dilution explained.
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Courtesy of another website, explains it so much better than I ever could! 

1) Genes come in pairs. For every trait needed to make a dog, a puppy gets one gene from its sire, and one from its dam. It is the combination of these two genes acting on each other that gives us the dog that we see, as well as the genetic structure of the dog that we don't see.

2) When breeding two animals of the same recessive color or pattern, more dominant colors or patterns will NOT be seen in the resulting litter.

3) All dogs are genetically either red or black. All other colors are a genetic variation on these two base colors. Black is dominant to red. So if a puppy receives one red gene and one black gene, it will be born as a black dog. If it has two red genes, it will be red. And of course two black genes still result in black. A red dog has nothing to give its offspring but a red gene. So if it is bred to another red dog, all puppies will be red. A red dog can produce black puppies if bred to a black dog. A homozygous black dog (meaning that it has two black genes) can only produce black puppies. It has only black to give, and black will dominate over any red genes combined with it.

There is a dilution gene, which changes red to varying shades of blue fawn, and also changes black to blue. Full expression of red or black is dominant to the dilute. So it takes a dilute gene from both parents to produce a dilute puppy. Two dilute colored dogs cannot produce a puppy with full expression of color. It is important to note that not all fawns are blue fawns, as non-diluted red can be expressed from deep red to a pale fawn, but the nose and eye rim pigment will be black. On a blue fawn, nose and other skin pigment will be blue.

There is another less common dilution gene, (liver dilute) which changes black to liver (a dark chocolate color, as seen in Labrador retrievers), and red to liver red (which can exist in a range of shades). In both forms of liver dilution, skin pigmentation will be liver as well.

Brindle is a pattern overlay on top of the base coat of the dog. Any dog with a visible brindle pattern, is a red dog. A black brindle is genetically just as much a red dog as a brindle with only the faintest brindle markings. The brindling is simply heavier on the black brindle.

Brindle is a dominant trait. At least one parent must carry brindle in order to produce brindle puppies. Two non-brindle red dogs cannot produce a brindle puppy. A black dog can carry a brindle gene, but you won't know it unless it also carries a red gene and is able to produce red puppies, which may or may not be born brindle. Basically you can't see black stripes on a black dog, although I've been told that in the right sunlight you can sometimes see faintly darker blue stripes on a blue dog if it carries a brindle gene.

Any puppy produced by a dog that is homozygous for brindle (2 brindle genes), will be visibly brindle if a red pup, and carry brindle if a black pup. A black or blue pup, which carries a brindle gene, is sometimes called a masked brindle (meaning the brindle pattern is masked or hidden under the black color.) This should not be confused with the term "masked brindle" which refers to the black mask sometimes seen on the muzzle of visible brindles and non-brindle red dogs.

Black masks and sabling on red dogs are also overlays of color on the base coat, but are independent of the brindle gene and each other. Now, if you add the dilute gene (actually 2) to a red dog with a brindle overlay, you will get what is called a blue brindle. It is still a red dog, but the dilute gene dilutes the black brindling to blue, and the red base to fawn and skin pigment to blue. A blue fawn is a red dog sometimes with black masking and/or sabling but with diluted red base, diluted masking/sabling, and diluted pigment.

Brindle is a dominant trait. At least one parent must carry brindle in order to produce brindle puppies. Two non-brindle red dogs cannot produce a brindle puppy. A black dog can carry a brindle gene, but you won't know it unless it also carries a red gene and is able to produce red puppies, which may or may not be born brindle. Basically you can't see black stripes on a black dog, although I've been told that in the right sunlight you can sometimes see faintly darker blue stripes on a blue dog if it carries a brindle gene.

Is this Staffy specific? Or dogs in general?

Interesting but what about whites I understand cream and yellow is a dilute red but I can't see where white would fit in. As suggested this may be breed specific.

As I understand it, white is actually cream (but such a light cream that we perceive it as "white)

Well in the GSD and some other breeds what is referred to as white is indeed cream with I believe is a dilute yellow which is a dilute red but some breeds like the Datamation and Japanese Spitz are defiantly white.

As with the Samoyed, some Japanese Spitz have very faint biscuit (or cream) shadings - unlike the Samoyed this is not accepted in the breed standard.

Would agree the Samoyed are also sometimes are cream but I do believe there are whitish coats and true white ones as in some terriers and the dalmatian seem to be different. Also understand that the true white coat is the one that is linked to deafness where as the cream or dirty yellow sort of colour does not.

Its very rare you will see faint biscuit on the JS, none of my 5 have and and are pure white and most of my exhibitor friends dogs are all the same apart from one import that sometimes before his coat casts gets a yellowish tinge to the the tips and i know of one other with a biscuit patch which almost looks like it had german spitz in it further back :)

We have interesting colour changes in Bedlingtons - pups are born black or dark brown and smooth coated, the curls/twists come in slowly and the colour fades to blue or liver/sandy, usually starting around the eyes, so the pups look as if they have glasses or goggles on :)  

The adults change colour all their lives.  If they have an injury, the area will revert to 'newborn' coat, and they also change with hormones and the weather!  

I've seen my bitches go from light blue to almost BLACK in about 10 days and no clipping or trimming in that time ;)

Gosh, I've never seen a JS or Sammie that was anything but pure white, how interesting! Never seen a puppy Bedlington either so I had no idea they changed so much. I know Yorkies and Kerries change a lot. My own breed don't tend to change except that the rich chestnut of a blenheim is often quite pale at birth and then darkens, and the black on a tricolour spreads out a lot as the hair lengthens.

As far as I know the Sammie can be cream, white, cream or biscuit & white also think there is a mention of the tips of the guard hair being silver (grey) JS on the other hand should be pure white.

>Is this Staffy specific? Or dogs in general?>

I think it's probably breed specific, but will confirm.

LOL - not sure this is of interest to the puppy owner mentioned in the OP but I don't suppose they care what colour the puppy is. On the other hand I am always interested in genetic matters as it would seem are others - never ceases to amaze me how a simple request for info can lead to the increase of knowledge for the rest of us.

James, are you still with us?

>but I don't suppose they care what colour the puppy is>

I'd be willing to place a wager on that ;) which is very naughty and presumptious of me, but you know how 'rare' certain colours can be! tut tut

I'd be willing to place a wager on that ;-) which is very naughty and presumptious of me, but you know how 'rare' certain colours can be! tut tut
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Had not thought of that but blue staffies are not rare and I would not think once you have a pup you would care what colour it was - mind you what would I know all mine are grey.

Thing with blue is it does not seem all that popular in the show ring so I would expect there would be a number available for pet homes and an experienced breeder would know which would be likely to be blue as adults so if this is an experienced breeder and they say it is blue and they charged the same for it or slightly less then I would think it is going to be blue.

If on the other hand it is a Bankbook breeder who charge over the odds for a blue then who knows what it may be as an adult because the last thing the breeder is going to be interested in is the pup and it's colour. (There now I may well have just joined the ranks of the Trolls or Wums sorry it is JMO)

> but blue staffies are not rare>

I know... My comment was meant to be tongue in cheek, hence the winky face...

My comment was meant to be tongue in cheek, hence the winky face...

Did realise that TT but it needs to be said clear and often the terrible situation with unwanted Staffies just keeps getting worse and worse and if I had my way everyone who advertised a "rare" dog would spend a month in a rescue centre not working there but shut in a cage 24/7.

>Did realise that TT but it needs to be said clear and often the terrible situation with unwanted Staffies just keeps getting worse and worse and if I had my way everyone who advertised a "rare" dog would spend a month in a rescue centre not working there but shut in a cage 24/7.>I've m

Apologies :)  Thought you'd misunderstood me.
Agree fully.
If I had a £ for every time I've been through that very discussion (both in person and via www) I'd be a very rich woman!

blue staffs are still sold for £1000 sometimes so i think a lot are bred by money makers

blue staffs are still sold for £1000 sometimes so i think a lot are bred by money makers

Bet they would be less popular if they were sold as dilute blacks - somehow suggests a undesirable colour rather than a desirable one.

It does suggest that the purchaser does no research what so ever or they would realise that the reason they do not see that many about is because breeders try to avoid the colour as it is not that desirable in the ring - not that it is not a recognisable colour just that it does the dog no favours in the wow stakes particularly if it is one of those with a pale coat. There is nothing like a gleaming dog of a dark brindle or black to catch the eye of the judge, dilutes really do lack that additional glory of a glowing coat.

TT mentions brindle being carried, in my breed to get brindle pups at least one parent has to be visably brindle, it like dapple[merle] can not be carried.

> TT mentions brindle being carried, in my breed to get brindle pups at least one parent has to be visably brindle, it like dapple[merle] can not be carried.

This is where it does become complicated and more breed specific. If I understand the workings of brindle correctly, then a lot depends on whether a specific gene called Dominant Black (K) exists within the breed. This can, will, and does hide brindle.

This can, will, and does hide brindle.

Think this does apply to Staffies, you can see a black in the sunlight and notice a faint brindle - not up in colour genetics not in Staffie colours but I think a number of them who look black are probably not. Happy to be corrected as I am only using my eyes and no true knowledge is behind my comment.

In addition, there's this whole argument regarding pigmentation too.

Breed standard calls for black nose, genetically impossible with a blue coat.

>but I think a number of them who look black are probably not>

Yep, you're right Nova.

My male Stafford looks totally black all over, apart from one very very small section of a few red hairs on his left shoulder.  They are the only few I've discovered so far (after 4½ years)!

Breed standard calls for black nose, genetically impossible with a blue coat.

This then, I assume, would be the reason why blues are not that popular in the breed ring because try as you may if it is impossible to meet the requirements of a black nose with a blue then they enter the ring with a feature that detracts from them being of good breed type.

It would seem daft that the standard allows for a blue coat but only allows the nose to be black - a strong case for a rewrite I think.

>It would seem daft that the standard allows for a blue coat but only allows the nose to be black - a strong case for a rewrite I think.>

Yup.. but which way to go?  Stop registrations of blue litters, or change the Standard to allow nose colour to have some relation to coat colour?

The SBT 'camp' is divided on this!

Between us all (i.e. SBT 'folk' and some excellent breed club representation) the KC have now stopped the registration of merle SBT litters... so who knows.
We just want what's best for the breed.

Yup.. but which way to go?

I can see the problem - as I understand it there are blues born in litters bred by responsible breeders and are apart from the pigment good healthy examples of the breed - so on this alone I would vote for allowing a pigment (as dark as the colouring allows). If the breed clubs decide to ban the blues all that will happen is you will get them bred by Bank Book breeders who will have the right to say they are rare because in the long run they will be although if they were not able to be KC registered that may take some of the gloss off the deal. All in all I think the easing of the pigment requirements makes the most sense and would prove better for the breed as a whole rather than just the show stock.

> Think this does apply to Staffies, you can see a black in the sunlight and notice a faint brindle -

When I said 'hide' I meant the gene not the colour - 'carry' is a better description. Oddly enough from looking at various sites it seems Staffies are one breed where the K gene isn't present, meaning to produce brindle, at least one parent has to be brindle. There might be other genes which affect the amount or brindling though, or cover it up.

The only thing in dachsies which blocks from view the brindle pattern is the ee gene which blocks any dark hair from showing, this means that whiskers and eyelashes[other pigment is not affected] are base colour red or cream but the dog may be black/chocolate with tan or cream points or have the brindle pattern, usually confirmed when brindle pups are produced.

Dachsies which are ee red or cream seem to be mainly in the US, they are born almost white and get darker,attempts are made to pass them off as UK creams which are born almost black and get lighter as they mature, many have been taken in and paid big bucks.

It is complicated keeping up with dachsie colour/pattern as the variations/combinations are more than in any other breed, not all meet the UK breed standard as they involve unrecognised colours such as white/piebald and dilutes such as isabella and blue due to poor pigment.

Interesting to read what other breeds have and what is or isn't acceptable

wow thanks for the comments everyone, including the little digs at staff owners. staffs are a breed that people use and abuse but not everyone is a careless staff owner. myself, my wife and 2 young children love both our staffs and are a credit to our family. they are soft loving and a part of the furniture. my sister calls the colour of her dog 'blue', who am i to disagree with her. whether its a dilluted black or not she will love her boy probably more than her own children. she picked this colour not because of the price or rareity, she plainly picked the colour because she likes it. my question was mainly aimed at positive people that could give advice. i understand people aren't happy with the staff situation but myself and family are just staff lovers who have soft dogs, simple as that.
thanks james

whether its a dilluted black or not she will love her boy probably more than her own children.

dont you think this could start an argument? who loves dogs MORE than their children? i love mine equally

tongue and cheek tina, just trying to fit in with other peoples tongue and cheek comments

I don't think anyone made digs at staffs, just those who exploit them, and who try to make money from breeding less popular colours (because they come with more faults/or tend to have fewer quality examples with ref to the breed standard, like poor pigmentaion and coat), and calling them rare.

> my sister calls the colour of her dog 'blue', who am i to disagree with her. whether its a dilluted black or not she will love her boy probably more than her own children.

It is 'blue', both in terms of breeds, breed standards and in genetic terms as well. It is also a 'dilute black'.
The recessive dilution gene [dd] (also called Maltese Dilution, Blue Dilution) acts upon black changing the arrangement and shape of the pigment granules in the hair, giving a grey' appearance to the human eye which is called Blue in almost all species of animals where it occurs.

This is no different in genetic and biological terms to the 'liver' or chocolate gene [bb] which also changes the pigment granules and their distribution in the hair shaft to give a brown/chocolate/liver colour in the dog (or other animal). So, not a 'diluted' black but an 'altered' black.

Sorry for the technical stuff!

Historically dog breeders have always selected for what they term 'good pigment' but this usually refers to skin pigment especially on the nose. Because of the way some genes alter the colouring of the hair, skin pigment can also be changed meaning liver/chocolate dogs and blue dogs can have lighter than usual noses, eye-rims etc. rather than the desired black.

Many people consider this a defect, although it has no real health implications as blue and chocolate cats also have the same lack of pigment in the nose etc and does not affect their health. I can only assume that in the past, dog breders (before they knew about genetics and the way certain colours act) avoided light noses in their dogs perhaps because pale noses can be affected by sunburn, skin cancer etc (just as the pigmentless ears in white cats predisposes them to skin cancer).

>skin pigment can also be changed meaning liver/chocolate dogs and blue dogs can have lighter than usual noses, eye-rims etc. rather than the desired black.

In most breeds that I know of, a liver/chocolate dog cannot have a black nose or eyerims because it doesn't carry the gene for black - hence its brown coat.

> In most breeds that I know of, a liver/chocolate dog cannot have a black nose or eyerims because it doesn't carry the gene for black - hence its brown coat.

Exactly - the colour dilution/alteration gene affects the skin colour as well. Some breed standards allow for that (in cats, for example) because insisting on a black nose with those coat colours is genetically impossible. In cat colours it usually states "nose leather and paw pads to match colour" which translates that blue cats will have bluish-pinky noses & pads, chocolate will have browny-pink, lilac will have pale greyish-pink etc.

in my breed
slates are born black and white most  fade to pale grey then darken again with full coat  colour appearing completely at around 4-5 yrs with black nose and pigment.

blues are born a silvery grey with a paler nose to compliment the coat they fade to a pale silvery colour darkening at same age as above.

Browns are born different shades of dark brown fade to very pale cream to white (some looking completely white by 9m ) darkening to brown by age said above they have a brown nose .

Fawns born pale brown with nose same  to compliment the coat lightening as above then darken to ligher shade of brown or dark cream

> in my breed....

Mostly follows what I said above about the skin pigment following the basic coat colour.... black, has black nose etc; blue=slate/silver grey; brown=chocolate/liver; fawn=lilac (in cats/other species) aka isabella (it is the brown gene in combination with the blue dilution gene).

Though in your breed you have long hair (which also pales colour, since each hair has the same amount of pigment granules as a short coat but gets spread out along the longer hair), plus I would think also a gene which lightens colour with age (many dog breeds have this e.g. Bedlingtons). So born-black ends up blue/silver; born-brown ends up pinky/ fawny; born fawn ends up a light fawny cream.

some black stay black and dont pale out but you can never tell which puppies will do this.

James

I hope that the information regarding coat colour was useful.  It's quite a complex subject, and as you can see from some of my replies, I'm not 100% on some coat colour genetics.
What I will say is that if the dam and sire of your sisters pup carries brindle, then most likely it is brindling that you're seeing in the pup.
What's more important though, is that the parents and/or pup is/was health tested for Stafford specific genetic illnesses, rather than just colour.  The only possible implication with the coat colour is that it can sometimes cause skin problems, it does appear that some SBT's seem to be suffering from this, particularly those which have been bred 'blue to blue'.

I don't think anyone has made any 'digs' against Stafford owners :) 
Hope your sister and family enjoy their new pup *thumbs up* (because there isn't a little smiley for that!).

and then there are Lhasas...:-)

Born one colour and can end up pretty much something completely different.

Many are registered as Golds but can darken/lighten/ turn grey.... a lucky dip in many cases.