OK, bit of background....We are a busy, active family with 4 kids who are all dog-savvy.  We have, at the min, 3 small/medium gundogs, but our first breed was Akitas.  We lost or old couple over the last winter and I thought I was perfectly happy having smaller dogs, you know, no hassle walking, saving a fortune on food, etc but recently I have really missed my big breed.  My OH works away and I tend to walk in really rural places with the kids and have been feeling a bit vunerable.  So, I have decided to take the plunge and get another large breed but here is where my dilema starts.   I have a few boxes to tick and would love some input.

1.  Absolutely must get on with my other girls so would be looking for a male.
2.  We walk on farmland so no high prey drives(and wouldn't like them to chase the smaller dogs or cat).
3.  Tolerant of kids.
3.  I would like a dog that 'looks' big to put off intruders.

Dogs we are contemplating are Danes, Bernese, DDB, so would love the pros and cons from owners.  Also, would love a rescue in any breed we (eventually)pick.
Can't think of anything else at the min but I will see what you guys recommend.  I like Danes but have no knowledge and OH loves the Bernese but the shedding seems exessive.  And we both want to steer clear of the GSD, rotties, dobes, staffs, Akitas,etc. No offence meant but we both just don't like the stigma that comes with those breeds and we would like to take the dog caravanning with us and a lot of sites are banning this type of breeds.
Anyway, I will stop whittling on and any help would be gratefully recieved.

If i was looking for another big un' I'd be inclined to go for a Leonberger, I've met a few and they've all been lovely mellow souls, great with children and other dogs, they do require a good amount of grooming though.

Ooh, I bathed a Leonberger for a friend a couple of weeks back. What a fabulous dog she was, best natured thing I've come across. However, regarding prey drive, he got her because the original owners had to let her go because her and her brother were worrying sheep. I know the original owner, and there will be a huge dose of irresponsibility and lack of training involved, but I don't know how they normally are.

Regarding shedding and Bernese - you might find a Dane worse. Those needles get everywhere!

M.

Well I would say Bernese (obviously) the only drawback is that many really don't live long :-( . They are fantastic with children but must be socialised like any other breed. They are really heavy to carry round when you are socialising them as puppies before they can be out and about though. They do shed, but not excessively and more often than not I find myself pulling out clumps of hair - if you get a furminator then there is not a huge problem. If you also get one that has close flews then they hardly slobber at all - in fact neither of mine have slobbered but I do know one or two with looser flews that slobber a fair bit. The get on well with other breeds (mine usually sit on anything that annoys them :-) ). They are a big strong dog though so need a lot of training and also need to be watched with little children as they can send them flying.  My girl has only ever chased two deer in her life ( she is 7 next month) and my boy never chased anything ( he died at 4 :-( ).

If you like a big dog, make sure you get a really good breeder and can cope with the possibility of losing them while they are still young then they are a fantastic breed.

The breed note writer in Dog World makes good reading if you already get the paper.

Theres a stigma attached to most breeds that are not handbag dogs, stereotypes for every single breed so most will be tarred with the same brush.

I have 3 Dogues so i can be biased towards them. Although non of mine have high prey drive, they have been brought up around small furries. My friends male cant be let off lead as hes in complete rabbit mode and wont come back. Pros- 8mo baby and they love him, good with other dogs and people. Easier to groom than the BMD i can imagine, i use a furminator. Cons cost a lot too feed, take up space, road walk 3, off lead only 2 if im alone so have more control. Vets bills quite large, insurance ridiculous. Health of the breed isnt great atm, hearts are a big killer and has been on increase over last few years mainly DCM, hips, epilepsy, skin conditions and entropian, Bloat. Show dogs are very big and dont seem to last very long in my opinion, breed standard says that they should be smaller than the bullmastiff but sat ringside DDB look bigger and fatter. Kidney issues have also been on the rise (just taken notes of dogues which i have known and friends dogues). My 2 out of my 3 are more of an athletic build, my large female is very laid back and looks half her age at 6 years old. Boy is now 5 and survived bloat and is very fit, 2yo bitch also very athletic and never stops. Was amazed when her hips came back A/A.

After all that they are a great family dog, but i can see the stigmas being placed on them even more now they are shooting up on the 20 most popular breeds.

> No offence meant but we both just don't like the stigma that comes with those breeds and we would like to take the dog caravanning with us and a lot of sites are banning this type of breeds

I know somebody with a DDB, they were very disapointed to find thier dog would not be allowed to the well-known holiday park they were planning on going to (the park says it takes dogs).

3.  I would like a dog that 'looks' big to put off intruders.

WOULD a dog like a BMD or similar actually do that though? Deter by looks? When I needed a new breed to protect us, both during walks and at home, I discarded St Bernard and similar breeds because of their look, also Rottweilers as so many dodgy people had them (back then it was Rotties and not Staffies) and probably would not be put off by one, knowing the breed too well. That's why I ended up going for Malinois -it both looked right and would do the job. They wouldn't really suit your requirements though unfortunately.

A very good friend of mine has a dane - beautiful sop of a dog.  Firmly believes she is a lap dog, likes her comforts and is a firm believer that a two seater couch or a double bed is plenty big enough for her two people plus the dog.  Then she stretches and wonders why the people are not cuddling her anymore! They are a very loyal breed that loves people and being around them, they can also be quite clingy so can suffer separation problems, but this does mean that on a walk they stay very close to their people prefering not to roam.  The one I know could walk past one field of sheep without a care in the world, then be quite intent on the next field, but she has never made any attempt to herd or chase. She has never shown any more interest than a mild curiosity in cattle or horses, from a safe distance.

Very tolerant of all people and dogs - she will lie down to play on the level with my two littlies.  Now she has reached adult she has really settled down in the house.  For the first two-three years they often get puppy madness and must have a mad 5 minutes regularly.  Due to their size it is only five minutes though, fortunately, cos thats a lot of dog to have galloping round the house and garden.   Her tail has taken out a few glasses and mugs and when she wags hard it hurts when it hits your thigh. 

As for "big looks", when I walk with them I hear children and parents 'look at that big dog!', I have seen the odd person cross the road when approaching us and when she runs up to someone to say hello non dog people are almost guarenteed to take a step back.  She's not in any way reactive - she see's people, runs over to nearly there, stops, does a woof in hello and turns round to the safety of her people.  She runs with her mouth wide open, tongue hanging out the side and that, coupled with her size, puts a lot of people off.  Plus she is blue with those piercing blue eyes they can have and I don't think that helps.

I'd happily have a dane after knowing her.  In fact they're now on my list of must have dogs....

Theres a stigma attached to most breeds that are not handbag dogs, stereotypes for every single breed so most will be tarred with the same brush.

Didn't you just do the exact same but about small dogs? There is nothing less offensive about referring to all toy dogs as "handbag dogs", than referring to all large powerful dogs as killers or similar. The responsible toy dog owners do NOT cart them around in handbags! I say that as somebody who has very small dogs and know full well what they can do if given half a chance. Never has one of mine been in a handbag -they are normally at the end of a lead (when not running free), doing obedience or similar. Even my avatar here shows two dogs doing a down stay for the photo, both have their KC Good Citizen Gold, and as you can see one is a toy -all 3 kgs of him. Not a handbag in sight.

This was more of a size guide. dogs that can actually fit into a handbag

> dogs that can actually fit into a handbag

Having seen the size of a lot of women's handbags, most dogs could fit in one ;)

Are male DDB's aggressive towards other dogs?  I don't know if that would be a deal-breaker so long as he was fine with my dogs and kids.  The sheep chasing thing would, however, as we walk through sheep fields most days. 

My boy had a fight with another male dog, but before this i could trust him around any dog. He was a rescue and wanted to get his place to the top and he did so with his teeth, since this attack hes been insecure but socialization goes along way. 2 years has done him good and i can now trust him round others. i have lots of friends that have males together happily a 4dog dogue pack and some that dont think its down to individuals as with any dog and how they are brought up.

A boxer fits the bill.

Great with my 'handbag dogs' .......thanks Louise, subtle as always :-)

Lively, trainable, very family centred and looks the part when guarding is required.

What about keeping the smaller size in a similar look with a less dog dominant character, the Norwegian Elkhound.

I like boxers too. :)
I know someone who has three, and she often says to her male boxer ''get your brain in gear''! when he starts acting a bit silly when we are out for a walk together.
But your right he does look the part!

Oh, I'm totally put off boxers as my mums neighbour has one and he barks constantly!!  I know that it is because he is home-alone all day but he's put me off for life.  I quite like the look of them though.  I like the muscley look.  My springer looks like arnold swartsinswiger!!

Ah that's a shame as having only had one of my own but knowing several I would have thought they would have been a contender.  All the boxers I know are not 'barkers' unless there is a reason and as far as I am aware they are not usually a very vocal dog compared to other breeds (except for weird chewbacca-like noises when playing or throwing toys at you to get you to play with them!)

> 3.  I would like a dog that 'looks' big to put off intruders.
>
> WOULD a dog like a BMD or similar actually do that though? Deter by looks?

Mine does by sound - when she barks you just know it is a BIG dog and if she comes flying at the gate you would think twice about coming in! They are quite protective of their property, not aggressive, just noisy if anything untoward is happening. I doubt she would actually do anything but most people wouldn't take the risk with a dog that big that they didn't know.

> Oh, I'm totally put off boxers as my mums neighbour has one and he barks constantly!!

VERY untypical. They are silent guards and are often known to let burglars in...but wont let them out!

Over 30 years I have never had a barky boxer, in fact if Cilla Black says 'Huff' you get up to look...if she said "Bark' we would jump.

I train them to 'watch him' and 'speak' so they will square up to suspicious looking men and speak a warning if asked.

> There is nothing less offensive about referring to all toy dogs as "handbag dogs",

Thank you Marianne!

Mine play in the compost heap with the Collies.  There is nothing worse for me than people "assuming" that my toys will be snappy, yappy when approached by a larger breed.

(I love it when they are proved wrong though!)  :-)

Ditto to Tooolz (except I have a mere 4 years experience!)  George will kind of puff himself up if required and 'speak' but most of the time he looks out the window watching the world go by without uttering any noise.

You currently have small/medium gundogs - what about one of the bigger ones?  Generally pretty good around livestock and children but don't look like a pushover if a stranger approaches...

>Dogs we are contemplating are Danes, Bernese, DDB

These dogs really have vast differences and perhaps the only similarity between them is their size.  I think you really need to consider much more things like energy levels, personality, temperament etc etc, rather than just looking at the physical package and thinking about shedding (although that is part of it).

I've had all those breeds through class, as a trainer, and my thoughts on them are (and these are generalisations and there will always be exceptions):

Danes usually have lovely temperaments and are outgoing and fun.  They do find it slightly harder than some dogs to focus on their owners and tend to be less food motivated than some breeds.  (I think this is because owners feed them lots, believing they are big and need lots of food, so it takes the edge off their appetite and may not necessarily be a breed characteristic.)  They are quite high energy as pups and youngsters and tend to play rough with other dogs and their size can be intimidating, even when matched with other dogs of equal temperament.  I've not had an aggressive Dane in class.

Bernese tend to be on the lethargic side, like to sleep often as pups and can be a little timid.  They are lower energy than the other 2 breeds, IMO.

DDB, I've had a couple of quite nasty temperaments in class, and quite a bullying attitude towards other dogs. 

Again, these are just generalisations based on a few dogs of each breed and may not be representative of the breeds, but you do need to think more about energy and traits and less about size, I think.

I live on a farm and have a Bernese.
He does have a high pray drive for chasing rabbits, foxes and other creatures like that. He's not bothered by our cat but if someone dumps one on our land then he does take chase for that - not to kill!!

As for tolerant of kids, i'd make sure that the pups have been socialised around them before you collect. Mine is somewhat nervous of children even though I made the effort but I do have to be careful. - So check your lines.

Mine is very guardy and won't let anyone into our home without permission first and many people won't even attempt to unless they know him very well - outside of the home he's great. I did have another boy who was the complete opposite to him, would allow any person in, loved kids and wasn't the biggest hunter for small furries - but then he didn't get on with my other males in the house :-(

Grooming - males tend to do a good shed twice a year and need a good brush through every week. I don't feel that they are much more work than some breeds, but clearly very different to a Dane for grooming. Some lines have very good longevity while others not so. Health is something you really need to look at in the Bernese - lovely breed, but I personally feel there are more problems in the breed than anyone is really wanting to admit.

Some great, helpful posts!!  Thanks guys.
Rabid, we are trying to consider all breeds really.  I have kind of ruled out Danes which is a shame because I do love them but I feel they are just too big for our home and caravan but they really seem to have the temperment we are looking for.
We are looking for a big dog which is quite active.  He will really need to keep up with our family and dogs who are all highly active.  We do a lot of walking, hill walking and cycling and the dogs always come too.  In fact, yesterday we cycled the local track with our 4 & 9 yr old dogs which is about 8 miles.  Obviously, I mean when he is past 18 months but a couch potato is not for us.
I am home all day so not worried about separation anxitey but don't want a barker, as such.
So long as he gets along with our 3 dogs and kids, I can handle him not liking other dogs/strangers.  But would prefer a sound, confident dog.  We have 'survived' akitas for the last 17 yrs but would prefer a breed that is not dog aggressive.

I haven't considered the larger gundogs and I have no idea why??  Maybe I don't see them as effective guards?  Oh, I could listen to some ideas in that direction!

All of this is just me thinking aloud and looking for ideas and suggestions.  I am nowhere near adding to our canine family but want to think of every eventuality that could arise and thought that asking other breed owners was preferable to reading books.

Bernese are active on the walking side, but to maintain your levels of cycling then no they aren't suitable. I'm getting another breed of dog so that I can be more active on those lines.

I agree a lot of the big dogs you were thinking of do give off teddy bear rather than beware to any would be perp, a terrier is likely to be more effective as a deterrent vocally and personality wise.

I wouldn't rule out the BC not many people will approach a BC they are one of those breeds that people can be a little wary of, but you'd have to make sure the dog was trained well, my brothers BC's mix in very well with all the gundog breeds, also I think the Elkhound would suit your needs too. :-)

Weimaraner?

Leonberger should fit the bill. Having spent a day with some recently, I was so impressed by their laid back tempers and lack of mouth drool which you sometimes get in bigger breeds!

Weimaraners have the guarding tendencies and are a bigger gundog...

If you like the Bernese, but they're a bit too hairy for you, how about the Great Swiss Mountain Dog? They are excellent big allrounder dogs, good guard dogs, active dogs, but very friendly with people and animals.

http://www.1petloversworld.com/images/greater%20swiss%20mountain%20dog.jpg

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/breeds/display.aspx?id=5238

I LOVE terriers!!  but having small kids and a cat, we had ruled them out.  Funny, when we were out our cycle, we met a English Bull in the middle of nowhere with the poor owner puffing along and the dog had the biggest grin on his face!!  I also groomed a cairn recently and I nearly never gave him back.  Suppose with terriers, I just imagine intruders picking them up and putting them in a cupboard!!  Hence the fact I was thinking something a bit bigger.  But then, recently there have been a spate of burglaries where they are putting the dogs into cupboards or toilets and we are not talking small dogs either.  A shepherd mix was the most recent and he was really shaken up by it, poor old boy.  And his owner was ranting about how he was a waste of space having not protected his home!!  I would just have been glad he was OK.  I could've cried for him cos he looked as if he knew what his owner was saying.
Totally terrified of BC.  Far too intelligent for me and I'm not ashamed to admit it!!
Not keen on Weims, sorry, just personal preference.
I like the Italian spinones but have no experience or idea what they are like.

If your thinking of a bigger gundog what about a GWHP ? my friend had one and he was a great watchdog and could look the part if he felt the need, wasn't great with wildlife though but that was completely down to my friend being out of her depth with him, he was eventually taken by the RAF as a sniffer dog, at which he excelled.

Well, if you like terriers what about an Airdale ? not sure what they're like with other dogs though.

I like the Italian spinones but have no experience or idea what they are like.

Oh yes, good call, forgot about those, I have the grand experience of knowing 3 :-D (not exactly an expert on them as you can see) one is a bit wary of other dogs, (probably not socialised well) the other two are lovely though and are good with all of our dogs, they don't have the cuddly teddy look about them either. The 3 I've experienced are not bouncy dogs so good for the children, more likely to be plodders than like the other gundogs though, they seem to be quite sensitive and tend to stay close to their owner, not fussy dogs.

Well worth a second thought, very nice  breed.

If you want a dog that will run and run what about a Gordon Setter? - mine would happily run a few km and back again :-)
Soft temperament, great with kids and other dogs, not as clever as a collie and big enough to look like a deterent. Bernese wouldn't cope with that much running as they are a bit of a couch potato breed (which is great for me :-) ) . The Great swiss would be worth a look though - a bernese with a short coat :-) ( obviously not as beautiful though). Or an Appenzeller - like a great swiss but smaller - though I don't actually know if there are any in the UK.

The Great swiss would be worth a look though - a bernese with a short coat  ( obviously not as beautiful though).

That's very much a matter of opinion... LOL

> The Great swiss would be worth a look though - a bernese with a short coat  ( obviously not as beautiful though).
>
> That's very much a matter of opinion... LOL

of course Lurchergirl and in my opinion the Bernese is the most beautiful dog in the world :-D , the Gordon setter is the supermodel version and the PBGV is just the cutest, cheekiest ever :-D Biased? Moi? :-D

Do you know, I love the setters too but the other thread in behaviour put me off!!  My friend has one and he leaves her standing waiting for him for anything up to 4 hours while he zooms about 100 yards away!!  I don't have the patience for that carry on.
Well, I have a few breeds to contemplate now and funnily enough, my list just keeps growing instead of getting shorter!!

Although not a breed that springs to mind instantly for their athletic abilities have you considered a Golden Retriever? My GR is the best of both worlds - quite happy to be a couch potato indoors if needs be but more than ready to be out and about all day long. Since reaching adulthood he walks 10 miles or more a day if required, races around full of the joys of spring and does agility training three times a week and competes most weekends. For a large dog he is very agile - can turn on a sixpence and wrap himself round a jump wing in an amazing fashion.

He is very biddable, energetic and just a great dog to be around. He will bark when the doorbell goes - sounds really ferocious - but is friendly with all. A salesman at the door took several huge steps backwards when I opened it and Harley barked - he asked me if he was friendly and looked quite relieved when I told him the dog was friendly as long as he was but was obviously eager to leave the premises at the earliest opportunity.

What about Ridgebacks, not as large as a Dane, plenty active enough, and from reputable sources goon natured but will certainly look after you, the guardiest of the hounds I would say.

What about a Large Munsterlander?  Far brainier than a Setter, more active than a Labrador/Golden Retriever, very dual purpose, attractive coat and colour, will bark if there are strangers but are excellent with kids, bought up with furries they are fine.

What about Ridgebacks, not as large as a Dane, plenty active enough, and from reputable sources goon natured but will certainly look after you, the guardiest of the hounds I would say

All 3 of our RR were terrible gaurddogs sleeping through several break ins and once sleeping through having the window he was sleeping under smashed, when i left home and used to return and let myself in loius would often not notice id came in till i was sat on the sofa :) but it could be argued he simply realised it was me before i came through the door.

I was thinking with the Ridgies more on the personal protection point of view, as a deterent not actuality.

Definatly a deterrent in looks and when they bark can't count the amount of people who would wet themselves when they saw Louis yet he was the most gentle placid dog I've owned.

Just what you want when your a woman walking at night or quiet places.

My Elkhounds with their wolfy looks (having five also helps)  are a very good deterrrent even though all they want is a fuss if anyone talks to us.

I love Elkhounds.  Very akita like,well, the ones I've known, as they are quite aloof and to me they just looked like a mini akita(without the aggression).  Very loving dogs with their owner too.
I have a close friend that breeds/shows GR and she is usually wearing more of their coats than they are so as much as I love them, that's a bit of a deal breaker!  However, a big male with a heavy head, LURVE!!!!
OK, now whittled the list UP to include:
some Molloser breeds, Beorbeal, DDB,
Wire haired pointers
Italian spinones
EBT???(I like but OH not keen as terriers)
Leonbergers
We like the short coat mucsley breeds and long-coat teddies!!  No difference there then.  Basically, looks are not particularly important.  Must be good with kids and our dogs.  Even the protection thing is not too important.  As long as he LOOKS big and bad.  Our springer soon sees off any trouble but she just doesn't put people off trying.
Last year, 2 guys came in through the back door in the middle of the night.  They knew we had dogs as we have signs but the gundog photo obviously didn't deter them. Well, they got in but the springer went mad, woke the whole house and by the time OH got down, she had taken some of their trousers and maybe a bite of bum too! cos it wasn't her blood.  Softest dog in the world too.  I don't expect any of my dogs to 'protect' us or guard, just be off-putting with a big bark.  That's where I really miss my akitas.

> they are quite aloof

You've not met my lot then, LOL real attention seekers, though I suppose the older ones act more dignified and let the younger ones do the pushing and shoving and then sit and expect the adoration that is their due.

Most often I road walk mine at 11pm or later at night and feel very safe as that way they actually get to walk, in the day we don't get far for all their admirers.

As a breed I do find they are reliable with other dogs, couldn't be doing with over dominant breed, but they can hold their own if needed but don't seem to bear a grudge.

I think a Rhodesian Ridgeback would suit your requirements pretty well. Some have a much stronger prey drive than others - but you can say that about all breeds. In my opinion, ALL dogs should be on leads if they are walked through fields containing other people's livestock, and that will solve that issue for you.

I have had the breed for over 25 years and if you'd like to have an honest chat about them, feel free to pm me and I'll give you my phone number.  I'll probably be able to find you someone reasonably close to you to visit so you can see RRs "at home"
PS not trying to sell you a puppy - I don't have any breedable bitches at the moment!