I am looking at moving house to one with a bit of land and have seen one with a 2 acre garden.  The garden/land isn't very secure and the cost of fencing it all in is going to be prohibitive.  I was looking at some of the other options available including fencing off bits of it but came across what is described as invisible fencing and what people on USA sites I am on call electric fencing.

Is this even legal in the UK?  These are shock collars that are linked to the boundary fence and when the dogs gets too close to the fence it gets a shock through its collar.  If the dog strays near the fence, the collar beeps and the idea is that the beep will be a great enough aversive and prevent the dog going closer to the invisible fence.  If it goes any closer it gets a shock. 

There are livestock in nearby fields so I would need to ensure the dogs are kept on the property but couldn't afford to the fence the whole lot and don't like the idea of shock collar use.  People on the american forums I use swear by them but I am not convinced.  Any thoughts or other options that might be available?

I'd factor fencing into your offer price and avoid the electric option.  I looked at it for a friend who wished to keep her dog out of their stream.

I couldn't really find anything in it's favour but two aspects which bothered me more than most is that it can take some dogs a while to learn and a long stretch of fencing takes even longer, and finally that a startled dog (or one on a scent) may run through the 'fence' on the way out but then be afraid to return.

It was definately not for me, nor for my friend

Sheep wire and poles are a relatively cheap way to secure a large garden and better fencing can be erected in time.

> Is this even legal in the UK? 

Personally, even if it is legal, I'd avoid it like the plague!

However, I have no personal experience of them, only opinions. Here is an article by a trainer that deals with the results of these fences.

We just changed the fencing in our garden. The wind had battered our 6ft panels to pieces so they had to come down, while we were at it we took the chain-link fence down that was behind it = NO fence atall for 2 days. I simply popped Buster on a long-line when he wanted to go in the garden. The fence is repaired & back up now (only 3.5ft high now though).

One of the other reasons against electric fencing is that it does not stop other dogs or people getting onto your land. No good at all from a security point of view.

I knew someone who used this and really regretted it, the dog was so afraid of it that she refused to go further than a couple of metres from the back porch.  Not only was the dog unable to benefit from their large garden but she would toilet next to the back porch as well.

Stock fencing is the way to go, just make sure you stake the bottom edge as well.

Wonder what the electricity bill would be and of course repair costs etc something to consider? If your dogs have a high prey drive they will probably still get over or through the fence anyway, I've heard plenty of times that dogs will go through an electric fence. That is if legal at all over here for domestic use.

It should be part of your financial moving plan to secure your property with fencing, good idea from dogs a babe to put in an offer to cover proper barriers. If you can't afford to fence all at once even after this, just use cheap chicken wire still cheaper than electric fencing and plant bushes and trees to grow and make a natural barrier and then add proper fencing if need be over a period of time.

I know you have probably bought the property for the dogs to use the 2 acres, but until secure I would cordon off a safe section could you afford to safely fence half an acre for them?  Or if you are not there to supervise you could put your dogs on a long line attached to a stake until the land is secure. Personally wouldn't go down the electric route even if it is legal for you to use. :-)

Here's another article that tells you of problems caused by these fences:
http://www.petsbest.com/news/pet-industry-news/long-term-health-effects/

I am really not keen on the electric control and my rott has got a high prey drive so the cows and horses in nearby fields would be a huge temptation for him.  secure wooden fencing like I have in my current garden, I have estimated would cost over £10K to replicate in that garden which is way too much.

Carrington, I haven't bought the property yet, I am looking for logical solutions before I go down that route as I am very impulsive and would just storm on into it without any thought if I have fallen for the property.  Am trying to stay rational lol

Mastifflover have just read the article you linked and as my boy is a total wuss and scared of random things,the flags would tip him over the edge.  Invisible fencing is now a definite no-no for me.

just waiting for Adam to come along now and say how great they are.....  ;-)

> Invisible fencing is now a definite no-no for me.

Good to hear that :)

As somebody else suggested, a chain-link fence would be a cheaper option, even if you could only afford a small area fenced off you could then add to it as & when you could afford it and you would still have all the rest of the land for your dogs to enjoy on long-lines/with supervision.

If you are in Wales these got made illegal about 6 months ago.

This story probably will not gain me any friends but....

Reason I know is that we had to have one for our cat (yes cat). She would go out and thug a neighbours cat and even go in the neighbours house so we put the fencing around the neighbours garden to keep our cat away from her cats. We tried everything else, had vets involved etc but nothing else worked and the neighbour was threatening to either start legal procedings or kill the cat (the little old lady got so threatening that we actually had to contact the police. The vet reccomended this type of fencing - we traced one down that could be used for cats; the fencing allowed you to set the collar to 10 differnet settings - we set it to one that felt like a bad static shock (yes I tried it out on myself) before it shock the collar whistles to try to warn off the animal. The installer said that most animals learn to stay away quite quickly and our vet said we could probably take the whole thing down in 6 months as she would have forgotten about the other cats by then. In fact we had it up 6.5 years as our cat kept checking the fences over and over and eventually running the battery out on the collar whih gave her a thugging opportunity before the lady would call us and we would change the battery - I guess my cat was either very clever or very stubborn. Well 6 months ago they were banned so we went round and told her that there was nothing else we could do the collar had to come off. The cats have now sorted it all out themselves and they live in relative peace together as cats do - it all could have been sorted out quicker if the old lady had just allowed the cats to sort out dominance without panicing and stopping them every time.

So if you have your heart set on this fencing; yes it can work providing he animal isn't really stubborn or really clever. You have to keep checking the batttery or else it will run out and its pointless. Given the option though I would chose something else - as I say we tried everything else but this fencing did work for us. I know cats are different to dogs but I thought you may want a point of view from someone who has used it.

it all could have been sorted out quicker if the old lady had just allowed the cats to sort out dominance without panicing and stopping them every time.

And if one of them was FIV positive the other one would have been given a death sentence from one small bite.......Do both you and the neighbour blood test the cats every 3 months or so to check.........?

A friend of my DIL used this type of fence when they moved to America and bought a property with a vast amount of land. One of their dogs has a very high prey drive and months after they installed the fence he took off after a deer straight through the fence and off into the forest. He was gone for hours but when he did return he was too frightened to come back through the fence - the adrenalin rush that enabled him to ignore the shock on the way out of the property had worn off and the shocks he was getting whilst trying to return to the property frightened him and he ran off again. He was eventually picked up three weeks later, very thin and in a very poor state of health.

They bitterly regret using this type of fencing - very, very common in the States - and wished they had fenced an area off for the dogs with conventional fencing instead. Their formerly happy dog has turned into a very fearful one who will not venture out into the garden voluntarily and is very stressed a year after the incident. They aren't uncaring owners - they took all three dogs with them, at great expense, when they moved out there - but were led to believe that electric fencing was the best way to go and sadly they believed it :-(

secure wooden fencing like I have in my current garden, I have estimated would cost over £10K to replicate in that garden which is way too much

That sounds like a serious amount for fencing to me?! If you are serious about this property would it be worth getting some more quotes??

I love deer netting, its about £90-100 for a roll of 100metres (6ft high) is easy peasy to put up and can be re-inforced along the bottom with regular stock fence.
If your dog has a high prey drive and you are moving to a rural area I would always supervise in the garden, because even if you had solid wood panels a determined or clever dog will just dig underneath if left to its own devices.
I never ever leave Vic in the garden on his own for more than 10 minutes because even though its really secure he would definitely dig under and take himself hunting in the woods if the mood took him.

>If your dog has a high prey drive and you are moving to a rural area I would always supervise in the garden, because even if you had solid wood panels a determined or clever dog will just dig underneath if left to its own devices.

That is a shame as the whole point of having a giant garden was so the dogs could run free, chasing rabbits and squirrels and playing to their hearts content.  I wasn't planning to supervise at all times and don't at the moment in the current garden which is fully secure.

My daughter uses this type of fencing in the US :(

I'm not at all happy with it - but where she lives they have a "no fencing allowed round the property" ruling - and they are in CT, with chipmunks, squirrels, etc in a "National Forest" type area ...which also means that some of the wild creatures could be rabid - and they have a springer spaniel.

I always wondered how it was you would see these dogs sitting quietly/confidently in their own areas - and that is the reason why ....it could also be the reason why their dog suffers (occasionally) from siezures :(

I tried the collar around my wrist - when I was about 9ft from where the fencing is buried in the ground, there was a sharp whistling (which I didn't like!) - and when I got up to the fencing there was quite a kick.

Springer has only got through once apparently - after a squirrel ...but was almost afraid to come back into their garden area.

My DD says that she doesn't like it - that the dog never wears it when it is DD + dog in the house/garden alone - but when her OH + children are around, then it is the only way that dog can be allowed out into the garden (sorry - yard) .   

If she were to go outside their perimeter and be picked up by police/warden/national park authority, there would only be a 1 hour allowance before she could be taken to a killer pound :(

But I still am not happy with it.   And I think it has been a contributory factor to seizures that she has had.

That is a shame as the whole point of having a giant garden was so the dogs could run free, chasing rabbits and squirrels and playing to their hearts content.

You'd think that wouldn't you, trouble is the garden whether 30ft or 10 acres becomes just that the garden, my girl has 3 acres to run and play in but has no interest in exploring without me there, unless I am doing a jog around or a bit of gardening, or playing ball, she doesn't really use it, same when family dogs are here, they all just stay where we are on the patio or close by, yet step outside my gate into the fields and they are off hunting, chasing and having a ball, so if you think they will act that way in your garden sorry to kill that dream they just don't, only if you walk around with them, luckily my boys make full use otherwise the extra acreage would go to waste, the dogs sure don't appreciate it. :-) I could just as well have a 50ft garden for the dogs. :-D

What I would suggest is that you select an area in the garden, and fence it round for a separate run for your dog - this is what we did for ours when we had 1/2 acre with insecure fences & hedges - works out cheaper in the end - dogs popped out in the run if we weren't in the garden with them!

(It saved the embarrassement of apologising when two came rushing back over the golf course where we lived ...with a large yorkshire pudding in their mouths )

Oh naughty dogs :-D Mind you I thought you were going to say Yorkshire terrier for a moment. :-D

Nooo ....and we couldn't ever deny that they were our dogs ....no-one else in the vicinity was daft enough to own a bright Border Terrorist and a Large but Dim Black Labrador!!

> Mind you I thought you were going to say Yorkshire terrier for a moment. <img alt=":-D" src="/images/default/sml_lol.png" class="sml" />

errr no, that would be one of mine that would do that. 

The rural dream is rapidly disappearing and the bubble has popped.  From what I have managed to work out, fencing for 2 acres will be too expensive and it defeats the purpose for me to only use part of the land by fencing off part of it.  At least I will be able to go see the house and think logically rather than just getting carried away with the possibilities.  Fingers xed for a wee lottery win that will cover the cost of fencing the whole lot lol

Margot the yorkshire pudding tale cracked me up.  did they make it to the golf club bar to theive the yorkshire pudding?

That is a shame as the whole point of having a giant garden was so the dogs could run free, chasing rabbits and squirrel

If the fencing is secure for dogs, the rabbits won't get in anyway. :) They're not likely to make burrows where there are dogs. There are rabbits everywhere here -except in our garden! One of my dogs spends a lot of time sitting in the back garden staring through the fence (chain link) at the rabbits outside it. Even the birds stopped nesting in the nest boxes once they realised there were dogs here.

Last year a flatcoat and a cavalier were stolen from a garden with this type of fencing last year and have never been found. A solid fence is a deterrent to dog thieves.

As Mandy said it will not stop other dogs or livestock coming onto your property and if you have a bitch in season there is nothing to stop a local dog mating her. If livestock gets loose and strays onto your property and you dog with the high prey drive injures or kills it you might find yourself in a lot of legal trouble.

I have estimated would cost over £10K to replicate in that garden

I can believe it--it cost me almost £1000 to fence in my hens (we are talking 8x14m so a very small space really) and although they are now fox-proof it was just lucky I could afford it then :)

We have stock fencing around most of our garden, then again we are very rural.
The only issue I have with this type of fencing is that at night they can see everything through it and this can cause them to bark at get over excited at things. So passing rabbits and foxes are a common sight which clearly the dogs need to bark at. Right now the Lab is going some at something out there - Nearly 1am , thankfully no neighbours :-)

If the fencing is secure for dogs, the rabbits won't get in anyway.  They're not likely to make burrows where there are dogs.

We have several acres of fields where the dogs can run free, it is fenced with strong poles and rabbit proof wire stock fencing, but I need to check the perimeter daily because the pesky rabbits dig from one side, under the fence into my land. We have 2 little terriers ( as well as bigger dogs ) and they would not miss a chance to go into a hole under the fence and end up in the farmers field next door - and we all know what farmers can do to stray dogs. Although I agree with what was mentioned previously, my dogs make no attempt to go round the land unless I am with them, if I open the door they just sit within a few yards of the house, so I might as well have a small garden and just walk them on public walking areas without the cost of fencing such a large area - hindsight is a wonderful thing !!!! But we all have the ideal country life in mind of how it could be, but that often differs from reality - so boots on and off with the silly gang of dogs that are unable to make the most of all that land without mum going with them to hold their hands ( sorry paws )

2 of my BCs make full use of the couple of acres that they have free access to. My hyperactive male runs laps of the place at full speed when first let out and a young bitch goes with him - I don't think she would do it on her own, she is far more interested in watching chickens and ducks ! But he loves it and uses every bit of it. I suppose he might settle down as he gets older, ( he is coming up to 18 months and still absolutely potty ) but in a way I hope not because it is great to watch him run like that with a big grin on his face. He is such a happy dog lol

Don't give up your countryside dream! You'll love it even with a fence, honestly :) When I moved to my new house I fenced in a section of garden around the house for the dogs to pop in and out of, but like others have found they're preference is to follow me about than spend time alone in the garden. The back door is open now but they're all loafing at my feet (even Vic the one I'm convinced will run away :) ).
Also if you have loads of land you will find yourself outside an awful lot maintaining it so the doglets will have plenty of mooching time!

One thing I note is you say "dogs", plural.  My neighbour has this fencing.  It's great for their beagle but the bullmastiff needs a higher setting so they can't work it for both dogs at the same time.  Obviously there is a big difference in size but I wonder if even same sized, same breed dogs have different tolerance levels that would affect the setting needed?  In my neighbour's case the bullmastiff stays in the house and the fence is set for the beagle, the one most prone to wander.

The setting can't be too high as when the fence has failed a few times I've seen the oldest boy or the mother out testing to see if the breaks were fixed by using the collar on their hands.

Besides the problems others have noted we have one you may not.  In a high snowfall winter the little white flags disappear under feet of snow and it doesn't work as well.  The installer told them it would still work but it doesn't, unless they put the setting up higher and even then it's not as good.

I'm not keen on the fence that these particular neighbours have only because they go to work and leave the dogs out alone all day.  Long periods at night too.  The fence does not keep other animals out and I'm surprised the little oldest dog died of old age and not from a coyote grabbing him.

Another problem for us is these neighbours border a footpath to a trail many of us take with our dogs.  Their dogs, well now only one, charge the fence barking like mad.   They charge it when anyone walks by on the road too.  The end result is their B!**+^  D@^^# dogs bark for hours.  It's been bad enough for most of us but really bad for the two nurses who worked night shift.

Other than the problems noted above we know lots of folks who do use this type of fencing responsibly.  Like anything, it's not appropriate for all and is subject to misuse.

> The garden/land isn't very secure and the cost of fencing it all in is going to be prohibitive.&nbsp;

Is there any secure parts, and possibly a make do and mend/only build fence where required for time being?  I have had 3 different types of fencing aound 1.5acres of land.. Barricading beech hedging, stock fencing, and even corrugated sheeting :-O  The estimate I have just had for 6' high featheredge boarding is £3.5K (this does not include labour)   And Yay...,1st phase of work should be finished on Monday :-)  It has only taken 6 years (because of  my indecision on how to enclose)  and the only dogs who have escaped are those who can open the gate.. and another who manage to climb up the 6ft beech hedge ... out in the field my dogs can and will scale a 5ft dyke, but have never once tried to jump the 3'stock fencing... even at one point where a post had fallen they could have literally stepped over..

It would be a shame to lose the property for the sake of fencing... even if it were to be done in affordable phases

Hi

I like them as a back up to a solid fence, in other words it stops the dog digging under/climbing over/breaking through the normal fence cause it can't get close enough.

In your situation I would stick up a pretty basic (cheap) mesh fence and use the invisible fence to stop the dogs getting close enough to test it!

This will allow them to have a great time running round the garden but will give you peace of mind that they are not going to head off! It will also stop anything else wondering in!

These seem to be the best, I know someone who uses it to contain a husky and they live in the middle of sheep country!

http://www.paccollars.co.uk/electronic-fence-kit.html

Adam

Surely the obvious answer is to fence off a reasonable section to start with and then as funds allow, increase the fencing, rather than attempt to do it all in one go?

I don't see why it has to be 'all or nothing' at all.

Another consideration with the electric fence systems is that a dog may well breach the boundary to chase a worthy quarry, but the motivation is not the same to cross it the other way to get back IN, so then you hav ea dog effectively shut OUT of your land. Not good!

My neighbour used to have the invisable fencing, as we  live on a shooting estate , but their labs would jump over and i would find them at my front door.
you would need to redirect your dogs prey drive onto a ball or some other thing to distract them. as they would be supervised you could try laying down a scent track and use his natural ability. where theres a will there a way:)soon there would be no intrest in the livestock. if you plan to move into the country start taking your dog out now to get used to livestock , rather than waiting till you are in that situation.

Oh surprise surprise Adam telling everyone how good he is and advertising himself :( :( :(
Reported :( :(

Do you know ( or can you get to know - drinkies down the local !!!) any helpful farmers that could get you the wire stock fencing at cheaper prices as we have found this works well. We had a small, near the house area with feather edge, but this was blown down with the winter winds and has now been replaced with the same as the rest of the fields. We find this type of fence keeps our sheep, goats and chickens IN and the dogs OUT of certain areas and keeps the boundaries safe and dog proof as well ( this is for mad boxers as well as terriers)

You should be able to have a cheaper solid fence with the use of this invisible fence, in other words just a basic roll of wire to stop the dogs running through the stim and the stim will stop them getting through the basic wire. The wire fence could be put up diy style as it wouldn't need to be great!

The collars can be got in different strengths for the different breeds, e;g small dog for staff big for rottie.

If your moving to the countryside you need to get them used to livestock anyway, you may need an e collar for that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7FNalP3BzA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB3feVQlAhk

Btw in the usa 1000s of dogs are succesfully contained behind these fences in a huge range of environments.

Adam

And in the USA, many dogs have their ears cropped and are debarked and many cats are declawed so I wouldn't use what happens in the USA as a recommendation I'm afraid :(

>If the fencing is secure for dogs, the rabbits won't get in anyway. <img alt=":-)" src="/images/default/sml_pos.png" class="sml" /> They're not likely to make burrows where there are dogs. There are rabbits everywhere here -except in our garden!

Hmm, I hadn't thought of that.  I went to see the house today and although there are drystane dykes and hedges none of them are high enough to keep the dogs in.  The garden is sort of triangle shaped with a very long bottom and short sides making up the triangle so lots of fencing and not a huge amount of space in the middle.

Doing it a section at a time wouldn't be practical as there is a river running through the middle of it and due to the lengths  there isn't a decent sized bit that could be fenced off.  Ultimately it isn't the house for me but the feedback here and what I have seen has definitely given me some pointers for my house hunting.  The list now requires no funny shaped gardens, no electric fencing and nice farmers in the pub nearby!  Thanks everyone.

> I wouldn't use what happens in the USA as a recommendation I'm afraid :(

Indeed - it's still acceptable to electrocute people to death in parts of the USA.
And if the OP's new property is in Wales, then advising her to get an electric dog fence would be encouraging her to break the law!

When those things (fences and collars) are finally made illegal in england AP will be unemployable as he seems to know no other way of training, perhaps he will emigrate? he could even look for a job with CM.

That sounds like bliss tatty-ead -we could get some peace here then!

> When those things (fences and collars) are finally made illegal in england

Roll on that to be soon... If Wales can do it then so can the rest of the flamin' UK!!! There is a reason why they are banned in Wales and the sooner they are in the rest of the UK the better!!! I've had enough of his recent postings on here, more and more frequent, even though he is on my ignore list, been reported and also message sent to admin.. How many more people is it going to take before he is not allowed to post on this forum too?? Seriously :-(

Do your dogs respect fences/boundaries usually?  If they do, then mesh is a viable solution in a couple of forms.  I have a big garden - nothing like you're looking at but I'd still be looking at around £1500-2000 to panel fence it and I just don't have that money.

When I moved in it only had a rotting 40" picket fence so I had to do something sharpish - so I bought rolls of that orange safety mesh and the metal pegs and put that up for a while.  It does get brittle after about a year though so strictly temporary but it was useful!

Last year I replaced it with 6' aviary mesh.  It's about £45 for 15m on ebay and so far it's holding nicely despite me looking after some dogs that *didn't* respect it last summer - two very large husky/GSD crosses that kept trying to pull it down.  All they managed was to loosen the first 6" or so at the top of one post :-) Otherwise my lot - up to 8 large dogs now - haven't done a thing to it.  I'm in the process of putting more up at the back now so the whole garden is done (about 320feet altogether).

I'd still prefer panels but the mesh is serving nicely as a substitute for now :-) Also, I did do one side temporarily in the livestock fencing - double layer of it - that also worked quite well so long as you make sure the two layers are attached together where they meet (had a stray dog get out that way once while I was calling the dog warden!).