Hi all

Is there anyone on here with setters? or particulary working setters? 

I have adopted a beautiful rescue working English setter in the last few months, he is a great dog and has settled in fine, he is good in every way apart from his recall!  I did understand setters werent hot on recall before I got him, didnt realise to what extent though!
Luckily we live next to a big national trust park so he can be let off the lead and not escape onto roads etc... no way could you let this dog off in a towrn park etc...

Anyway, when he is let off, he stays with us and the other dog for about 10mins then gets the scent of something and he s off, he is magnificent to watch and has gone miles in a few minutes, he runs all over the moors or woods or wherever huntiing and pointing etc.......  he comes back when he is ready and not before!
I can stand there blowing my whistle and calling his name but he doesnt even look up, he can be gone anything from 15mins to 45 which was what happened this morning and its very frustrating!  He is now spoiling the walks as myself and friends have to wait with our dogs for him to return, we cannot walk off as he loses all direction and gets lost, if i stand in the same spot he does always return, EVENTUALLY! 

I really can think of no way to train him to come back, im thinking its just his breed and instinct am i right ?  If so, what do other setter owners do ? surely not keep them on the lead all the time?  The way its going now he is going to end up on the lead most of the time which is very sad

Can anyone help with this ?

Sorry, I can't be of any help but my friend has a setter who takes anything up to 4 hours to return to her.  Like you she is able to walk far away from roads but the waiting about for him to return is really getting to her.  I will watch this topic with interest.

Thanks for replying! Its not only mine then lol 

I just cant fathom out how people exercise their setters if this is the norm unless they have their own fenced in land, is your friends setter working or show?  Im thinking mineis worse as he s a working type n very very birdy!

I have two Irish Setters, show strain though, not working.  Their recall is ok, but it does depend where we are walking as to how instant it is.  I live near pheasant rearing woods, if we go near them at the time of year when they have just released the birds I have to put them on leads because they will just chase and chase .... and I get told off by the gamekeeper :(  They will also chase hare and deer, sometimes going off for about 10 minutes in persuit, but they will come back ... when they have lost it !! When I go walking in the forest I dont see an awful lot of them, but they are around and if I whistle they will make themselves seen but dont come back and unless im persistant !!!  I often walk with my friend with her dogs and she asks if I remembered to bring my dogs because we hardly see them on walks !!

So, in short, they do have a recall, depeding where we are depends how good it is.  I imagine as with all dogs its the case of a long line and lots of training ....... just dont expect it to be perfect.  There is a forum call Exclusively Setters (you will have to google it) who have all sorts of Setter owners on there, there may be someone there who can help you.

>I just cant fathom out how people exercise their setters if this is the norm

cani-cross and bikejoring ...........

Sorry not my breed so I might be way off beam here but can this be improved with practise?

Are you going to training classes with him?  Even a simple obedience course should help you both tune into each other and teach you what works to motivate him.  If he's having so much fun off lead then I can see why it's more fulfilling for him to bog off than to return - not daft are they?!

A good trainer will teach you some techniques for a more reliable return but it's worth practising a lot at home too and you can see which rewards work best.

Finally have you thought about working with his instincts and getting to some gundog training?  Even if you think it's not really want you want to do, you might get some breed specific advice and practical assistance.

Good luck.  I remember waiting hours and hours for an Aunt's Irish Setter to return when we were on holiday with the cousins as kids.  My brother fell into a stinging nettle patch, I got stuck in the mud, my cousin was sick and my sister cried.  It's now passed into family folklore!!

Hello and welcome to the wonderful world of owning setters!

I've got 2 gordons at the moment, and touch wood their recall's not too bad.  My first gordon, bless him tho was a nightmare! 

Doesnt always work but i find if you use treats can help and regularly call them back for a biccie and let them go they norm check in pretty regularly.  But you do have to have a large supply of biccies. 

Mind you my first gordon this didnt work and would regularly be off several fields away to  good smell or dog he saw half an hour ago!

Hi, thanks for your reply

I have tried treat method, it works the first ten minutes when he chooses to walk with us, but once his nose hits the floor he s off quartering and is gone , he s too far too even see me showing treats etc... i understand what you mean about the whistle now etc... he takes no notice so no point at all
Interesting youre saying about e collar training, must admit imm very anti e collar, always believed it to be cruel, I did think of trying one of the remote citronella collars, but just cant see it working.
Once he s hunting and scenting its like he s in his own world and is oblivious to everything else

Im getting a little worried now as in a few weeks sheep are going to be put on surrounding fields and dont want him getting in there obviously

I really dont want to have to keep him on lead every walk, its just not fair on him seeing the other dogs off but its going to get that way if I cant get him back

Denis, I'm surprised Youtube still allow your video where you illegally set your dog to chase a hare.

Hi - I have 3 Gordons and 1 English - my English is show strain.

The gordons have pretty good recalls but the English  is also very independant and treats don't really do it for him.  He comes back but its on his turn.  I tend to be careful where I let him off and if I feel its too dangerous and he will get lost or chase something he shouldn't then he stays on lead.

A lot of peopel including owners of show English find enclosed fields.

I definitely wouldn't let him off near sheep in fact wouldn't let any of my setters off around livestock just in case - its just not worth it.

A long line might be the answer for him - a bit of freedom and only let him off where you know he is safe and you have a chance of getting him back.

I would never use a collar on any of my dogs and particularly not a setter far to sensitive and you would completely lose their trust.

I have to say I use a whistle as he responded much better (being a setter he travels some distance) and could hear it better (despite his selective deafness). 

Treat as you would a puppy and teach the recall from scratch - perhaps change your recall word or even use a whistle.

I'd rather lead walk a dog in an unsafe area than risk it.

A few more tips:

Whistle training to reinforce use this before dinner

Practice recalling on walk randomly make sure the recall does not equal end of walk  - smart cookies these setters really.

Does he like any chew treats - ever bought bulls pizzle or tripe sticks?

Do treats really not work!! - kong with cream cheese inside?

If he liked treats another game is the find it game - you could possibly do this with ball?   Especially with a hunter!

I start with dog on lead at home or on lead and get treat/ball out and act all excited ready ready ready..... throw treat/ball - FIND IT.... get ball back and do again

You can then rather than recall you can wave and say ready ready find it... this is a game not a recall ...

Its all about the element of surprise - are we playing a game this time..

Sometimes he gets back you play game and you can release him for fun again... I use go play to release them

Play game then recall... then release... then recall...

It all needs to be more fun...

Other times get him to chase you call him and run in the opposite direction waving ball or tuggy/toy... Kong on a rope maybe...

I would suggest relooking at the treats and seeing if you can find something that he really loves - but it doesn't have to be small could be as I said some chew stick - but only for walks - bulls pizzle sticks to high heaven but I don't know many dogs can resist it!

Good luck and definitely use that long line - remember recall is FUN FUN FUN not end of walk - so you need to be at your most exciting to the point of perhaps looking a bit nuts!

Thanks Rachel

He does like treats, and as i say for the first 10mins of the walk he tends to stay with us and ill blow my whistle and he returns to get a treat, but then he goes further a field and is gone wont comem back for anything !
I definately wont take chances with him and would only let him off in the national trust park where its safe but lik ei say sheep will be on parts soon so he will have to stay on lead a lot of the time which i thinkis v sad.

Is this why we dont see many setters about ? as their recall is so bad?

This dog was found abandoned in Ireland so no idea what his past is, probably a failed or dumped gundog, he was very thin and scared he now has lots of confidence so has done really well, his age is unknown but i dont think he is much over one!

Have done a bit of recall training in the garden which is fine, but like i say once he has scent of something he is gone!  not sure you can train over his instinct! ??

Not just Setters.......... my Standard Poodle bitch is the same. Recall is good until she gets a sniff of a rabbit and she goes deaf and is oblivious to anything I do. I would love to attend Ian Dunbars lecture mentioned in another thread but is a bit pricey for me. I think one of his topics covers off lead work.

I wonder if this might help? It's a Recall 'webinar' by a trainer named Susan Garrett consisting of a series of videos. You need to sign up with your email address first, and it's free for a week.
http://the5minuteformula.com/recallers.html
If you're signed up it's currently showing Video 2 but click to the right of it to see Video 1.

We have a rescue terrier who spends most of his time on a long line - my other dog spends most of his time off lead and I personally don't believe it matters too much that one is off lead and the other is on. Our terrier has a fabulous recall, very quick and instant return, until he gets a scent and then it's nose down and off he goes. Having lost him in the woods for a fair while I decided that it wasn't worth risking his safety just so he can go off lead on every walk. I do let him off in enclosed areas but the rest of the time we just ensure he gets plenty of exercise by extending the length of time we walk him for and by giving him lots of mental exercise.

Yes it would be lovely if he could have more time off lead but losing him or having him get in with livestock or getting run over is a far worse fate than being on a long line. The line I use is about 50 feet long so he can run and he can play if we are walking in open areas but if we are at the woods then he is on a shorter line to help try to prevent getting caught round trees and undergrowth. I am lucky in that I have a very large open space not too far away, open to the public but not used by very many and I also live within 5 minutes walk of the beach so there is plenty of opportunity for him to make maximum use of his long line.

If you do use a long line it should be used with a harness rather than a collar because if your dog runs at speed and gets to the end of the line the resultant jerk to it's neck is likely to cause severe damage.

Setters especially in my experience the English have that hunter instinct hard to train over...

but such beautiful loving dogs - I can forgive them x

On lead isn't sad at all - again play the games - have fun x x better to be safe x

Have you talked to gundog people? I have no knowledge of the breed other than thinking they are gorgeous! But surely people who actually work them on shoots need to have control and recalls, if you know how to train it?

My friends is from showlines but still has terrible recall.
Thing I would try is to actually teach him how to do what he obviously wants, properly.  Teach him to hunt.  Get yourself onto a gundog forum and buy some dummies and work your dog.  We did this with our meduim size gundog and she is the perfect dog now.  Basically I think if a dog is not recalling, he's telling you something is missing in his life.  He is either not getting enough exercise or mental stimulation or finds you/his home a bit boring.  Personally, I think it's probably mental stimualtion with your dog as he is trying to work himself.  Have you not got a working estate near you that would maybe mentor you?  Lots of people think that gundog training is difficult but it's not really and is such fun.  I think your dog would be ideal for this and would help you gain control as he would know that to stay close and watch you, he is going to get to hunt/find/recall, all that he is trying to do on his own.  Worth a shot.  But if it doesn't work, just post him to me, I'd love a setter!!

The problem is its usually difficult to find a club that trains Setters as they arent your usual retriever or HPR, they dont retrieve, they hunt, and they "set" the game.  There might be a chance of training it as an HPR if you can teach it to retrieve ........ and find a club with a trainer that doesnt baulk at the idea of training a Setter

Hi, I live close to the New Forest.  I have never had to use them as I have a gundog breed that always stay within eyeline as that is how they work, but we have classes that teach dogs and owners how to maintain off lead control in the New Forest.  I know a few people that have gone as the number of deer/ponies/pigs/sheep is hard for any dog to ignore and they have all had really good feed back and solid recalls.  I wonder if your National Park has the same?

Thanks Ill check that out, the ian dunbar thing sounds good too !

Lucy

Thats exactly what Im thinking, how on earth do the working brigade get them back at the end of a shoot?  was hoping there would be some working people on here with setters, i dont know anyone who trains setters for gundog work.
I have flatcoats and they are relatively easy

Hi there

There is no doubt this dog isnt getting enough exercise!! lol  I walk for 3hrs in the morning, most of it is off lead on the moors ( a lot now waitiing about for him) then walked again in the afternoon. He has a fantastic dog life i love him to bits but he is now spoiling enjoyment of our walks for my other dogs and my friends dogs as we cant walk in places we used to unless he is on the lead
I do keep him on the lead sometimes but it isnt enjoyable for him as he wants to be off and not comfortable for me either

Hiya, that sounds great but sadly no, our park runs no such thing . There is no way ill be letting him off nr any livestock but the ground he covers is so vast its worrying he may run miles to see them, he has seen deer and luckily is bothered with them

Try this forum http://irishsetters.ning.com/ it is predominantly an Irish Setter forum but there are Setter owners accross the world who go on there who have all types of Setters including working types.

Would be worth a shot :)

Thanks Claire, will do! ill try anything lol

I have a gordon setter (show) and she also bogs off, usually chasing birds. She takes her own time to come back but its usually within 15 minutes and I think we probably achieved that with hot dog sausages! I think liver cake would probably work too as she loves it. Ordinary treats just don't cut it when it comes to chasing birds, it has to be something delicious and irresistable and usually smelly to make her re-join us.
Maybe you could try with a long line and some really tasty treats that he only gets for recall and build up to letting him run free?

ive just found this thread on there http://irishsetters.ning.com/forum/topics/recall-1 which has links to loads of other recall threads :)

>With a remote collar you can cause the dog to come back everytime you call him,

you can also see how far he flies in the air when you press the button........ :(

I have you on ignore but seeing as this is a recall thread just knew you would be offering collar advice!!!

I do not want to look at videos or links from you

Real experience of the breed - how long have you owned setters and if you had experience you would know that noone with experience in the breed would put any type of shock/vibration whatever you want to call it collar

I dont walk my dogs near sheep or roads, I know where they are all the time even if they arent in my immediate vision, I dont think ive offered any advice other than places to look for answers .....  they only persons advice on here I would ignore is yours.

My dogs enjoy their walks and long may that continue.

Ignore button here I come.

Paddington Bear,

I too have AP on ignore as I can't stand to read any more posts about his raving about shock collars or what ever he decides that they must be called.
Please listen to those who actually have Setters like Rachel and Claire and others who have posted.
I walk with Rachel and she is really on top of her dogs and they are very well trained with the whistle. Her English maybe a little slower in responding but he does. There is no way i'd ever do any harsh training with a sensitive breed like a Setter, they'd become a shivvering wreck if you tried anything like AP is suggesting.

>There is no way i'd ever do any harse training with a sensitive breed like a Setter, they'd beomce a shivvering wreck if you tried anything like AP is suggesting.

I only know of one person who used a shock collar on a setter, and they only used it once. That was enough to destroy the dog as a working gundog. It was the biggest mistake they could have done.

OH I do sympathise.  I had an English setter dog and he never ever had a recall.  I was always seen walking by myself holding a lead with no dog in sight.  He used to range his area and then come back in his own good time.  He only stopped doing it when he was too old to run off.  I always said that I needed an enclosed field somewhere to try to train him.  Indoors he was perfect  he would recall with so much speed he would slide along the floor in his eagerness to sit in front of me but outside ......... but I never found anywhere outside to train him.  He was also a great escape artist and learnt to open doors inwards as well as out.  We always had to keep the door locked - even going to hang some washing up otherwise he was gone.  Sorry can't offer any help.  I never did find the secret then  though we didn't have the internet and sites like this.  Good luck.

And as for sheep killer - ha ha!  Mine got out into the field with the sheep = I had a hard time spotting him - he was sat in the middle and blended in rather too well.  He really wouldn't think about chasing anything.  My first dog an Irish setter bitch - who did have recall btw. once spotted a rabbit in the field.  Both animals sat staring at each other - I have no idea which one moved first but they both ran away from each other. 

lol love it Ceejay! mine are not interested in livestock at all, in fact my boy is scared stiff of sheep! They're only interested in birds and rabbits!

Snap, I have him on ignore too, I bet he'd love the people at that awful club I posted about the other week!

Hi there

Thanks for your reply, I have and am still trying treat rewards when he comes back, he is a very greedy boy inside but once out he isnt bothered!  At first he did disappear for 15mins at a time which i can cope with but the last week or so its got a lot longer, today again he went off onto the moors and was gone for an hour!! while I stood there watching, he just switches off an ddoesnt listen!
Eventually I had to walk across the damn moor and get him falling down rabbit holes on the way lol, its really annoying , he is going to end up on a lead all of his walks if i cant get him any better, although everyone on here has been helpful sounds like this is normal behavour and not much can do about it grrrrrr

I would stop letting him off at the moment until you can get a better recall - its not impossible but he obviously is getting used to this freedom and loving it!  He is self rewarding himself.  At certain times my boy goes on lead as he goes extra silly !  Spring being one of them - so many extra smells I think.

Better on a lead/long line for now and then at least you can enjoy your walks - he will too trust me - only let him off if you are sure you can get him back.

You need to find a treat or something that will work outside too.  Have you triend any training classes?  Maybe a bit of one on one work will help ?  They are stupid at all - but do get bored easily with things! 

They are hard work and very different from any other gundog who are much more responsive and trainable - sorry I wish I could give you more encouraging words.

I'm sure being on lead will not bother him as much as you think.  Have you tried any of the food games yet? hunting games?

you can get a better recall but it will take time.

Please whatever you do avoid an e-collar this is one sure way to lose any bond with him you have - I'm not saying you will but jsut someone is pushing this very heavy on this thread.

Hi Rachel,

Theres no way Ill use an e collar!  dont agree with them on any dog especially not one who is so submissive and gentle as my boy, the rescue i had him from recommended he not even be castrated as it would make him more that way. He is a very sweet little soul
When u say a long line, are you talking a flexi lead? I was considering one of those waist belt things so he doesnt pull me as  much (he does walk well on a lead round the streets but not when we re walking through forests n moors! )

Thanks for your help

I have a Large Munsterlander, not a Setter, but very similar in looks and temperament by the sound of it ;-) She is almost a year old and was great until recently when she has turned deaf. Twice now she has done a runner and been gone for over 3 hours :-( So for the last 2 weeks she has been on a 20' long line. She wasn't too happy at first but has got used to it and is now just starting to listen to me when I use the whistle. I will not be letting her off this long line for some time to come as I do not trust her. She WILL bog off given the chance so until I can be 100% sure that she is listening to me and not wanting to chase birds, any bird, it doesn't matter how small, I will be keeping her on lead. I will be taking her to obedience classes once she has had a season, not a problem you'll have just so that I can see how she will react to other distractions.

There is no hard and fast rule to help you in this as all dogs are different, but as I am in a similar situation I really do hope you can get to the bottom of this. Life is so much easier when you can trust them.

A long lead is similar to a lunge rein for horses. I would not use a flexi lead ever again as they are so easy to be pulled out of your hand. I used one for my first Munster and ended up badly bruised after she pulled it out of my hand and it flew up and hit me in the face. It was put into the drawer, where it stayed.

I don't have experience of setters although i have a rescue springer which we were told may have setter in him due to his looks/behaviour. He came to us at 11 months with no recall. It took a lot of work on a long line beofre we could safely let him off. He's now nearly 7 and although his recall is not as good as the others he will come back 80% of the time and occaisionally has a few deaf moments when he is in "hunting" mode. I know where i can and can't let him off, and tend to avoid the areas where i know he will ignore me and stick to a flexi if i think he is going to have one of those days. I know its horrible to have to keep a dog on lead when they enjoy free running so much but if you are going to have any chance of improving his recall you need to stop him practising the behaviour i.e. ignoring you. Everytime he runs off and ignores you the behaviour is getting more entrenched and will be harder for you in the long run. I think sometimes being off lead is a priviledge a dog has to earn and if they are ignoring you then they aren't entitled to that priviledge until they learn to listen to you. I was lucky that i did have a few safe areas i could let him run off lead though to get rid of some of the energy.

Hi sorry didn't see your reply last night :)

As I said I didn't think you would but with it being pushed just wanted to check :) :)

No I don't mean a flexi lead - like others can't stand the things - you need a training line - perhaps starting off a shorter length then progressing - think Harley posted some useful information on long lines.  Definitely use a harness to attach to rather than collar as much safer and less damaging to the neck with any sudden jerks - I used to go to a great training club that showed me how to use it - I'll see what I can find on the internet.

What is he like when you walk in strange places less confident to run off? 

He is obviously quite confident where you are walking now so perhaps varying where you go?  He knows you will wait - clever boy!!!

I will have a search and see what I can find regarding long line training and use.

All the best  Rachel x

The best way to get a recall with with a remote collar/e collar. It doesn't matter how soft the dog is the collar is adjustable to account for the most sensitive of dogs!

By using the collar you can get the dog to recall every time you need him, this will allow you to utilise food and freedom rewards most effectively as he will unlearn that ignoring you works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp6LPdyGY0w

As you can see they do work well on setters.

http://www.pacdog.com/testimonials.php#setter

Adam

Please get the message - the OP is not going to use one and any one with half a brain either so please can you stop posting sick videos that will not be watched!

I doubt telling Adam to stop posting this & that (instructing him what to do) will stop him posting anything.

The way stop AP posting sick videos of high speed, high drive, long range dogs recalling from chases, aggressive incidents & emergancies is to post equivilent videos of similar high drive, fast, long range dogs doing the same things, that might stop him, simples.

So Mr Palmer, your video days are about to become neutralised, Rachelsetters & others will have this post flooded with their dogs doing the same things as thatun in that video you posted above!...there that told him, go for it Rachel, shine, show him & us what its about...
.

rachelsetters,

One of the great things about this site is the input of breed specialists like yourself- nothing can come close to that sort of knowledge. It's great for people like Paddington bear to get input from those that really KNOW a breed. Keep at it.

Hi Paddington Bear,

We have 4 setters 3 IRWS (with half working half show pedigree) and 1 IS, when we were homing our pups one of the ways we vetted homes who said they'd had a setter before (they all did) was ask for their I got dumped by my setter story because EVERYONE who owns a setter has been dumped by it at some point.

Setter's are amazing dogs but they have a VERY independent streak and if the wind, a bird, a rabbit or a smell takes them then they can run - and yes they can certainly run.  When our 10yr old was 6 months she dumped my dad in a field chasing birds a mile and a half from our home and made her way back an hour before him across 2 main roads........

The secret we found was letting our IS off in the woodland - on the beach or in a field she could run for a mile and still see us in the woods she has to stay closer to be able to still see us.  We also scream and run away from her - we look like mentals in the park but it always works as it uses their chase instincts.  Always have a great treat on hand - dog treats won't do when their out for us it has to be raw meat, liver, grapes or orange (I know their not meant to like them but tell that to my dogs!).  We call ours back constantly so they only go a few feet then come back for a treat - that way they don't get to the point of being fixed on a smell.

if there's another dog they'd be happy to stick with that has a re-call maybe try that (our IS was partly recall trained by my friends springer who I'd call and would have the red attached to its tail)

I wouldn't use an extendable lead we had an extra large one snap as although their built for weight the speed she built up so quickly was too much for it.

They do improve with age but only the other day our 10yr old took herself off to a pond because she could smell it and fancied a dip and we were walking the other way.   Fingers crossed it gets better for you and I'm sure they will - just keep going as they do improve.  It can be frustfrating as people do sometimes think you can't train your dog - all the dog trainers at my school have GSD's and can't believe how poorly trained my setters are by comparison - but patience is the key :)

>only the other day our 10yr old took herself off to a pond

I do bikejoring and cani-cross with mine, I have been dragged into a river whilst running with the two of them (they wanted to cool off) and was dragged into a manky pond halfway round a bikejor race (that should read did I now bikejor with a competitive Kelpie, who wouldnt dream of diverting off the track,  although I do run two dog sometimes with the Kelpie and one of the Setters .... the kelpie keeps him focussed ;) )

I also do agility, one of mine has the biggest sense of humour, he often stands at the top of the A-frame just appreciating the view, at one show he tried to drag the collapsible tunnel over to the judge and at another show we had to ask the judge to remove his hat because Fagan had his eye on it :)

and never laugh at him or he will do it all the more ..............

that reminded me of a class I used to go to in Penarth with our very first dog (lab/cocker). A guy went with Red Setter, used to get asked to demonstrate some stuff to us newbies.
Guy was doing off lead heel work....turned at corner down long side..........dog stopped at corner and turned other direction to sit in front of table asking for a tea & biscuit :-D :-D .........meanwhile guy got to NEXT corner and suddenly realised he was on his own :-D
Chris

My first setter was a Gordon - never again, used to lose her for a day on occasions
Our second and now new third, are both Irish Setters. Determined not to repeat the first dog errors we worked really, and I mean really hard on his recall before reaching the point of complete recall trust. Since those early days we have been involved in working him as an HPR but mostly as a picker up of sorts for a local rough shoot. The third dog, newbie, I can already see that recall has the potential to go pear shaped - he's very independent minded, but just what I want to develop as a working dog. But you can bet your bottom dollar it's his recall and stop that are currently the be all and end all of his current training.

My suggestion to you is that you consider 'working' him when on walks, but before that point long line train him exclusively for at least two weeks then long line 'work' him until you 'know' he's on your whistle 100% - even now I use walks for 'working' training retrieves, work the field/park, hunt in the bushes (beater style) - my older dog loves doing this on walks, can't get enough of it.

Happy training