Hello,

I'm hoping for help from those of you more experienced than myself! I have a 9 month black labrador boy born of yellow and chocolate labradors. I mention this as it may or may not be relevant. He is not my first lab. We got Dave at 14 weeks old from a large litter, I'm still not convinced of the breeders integrity and had my husband been with me we would probably not have come away with Dave but I'm a softy and I did. He was on the face of it bright, alert, friendly, healthy and not quite so intent on biting me as the others. So we got him home and straight away it was apparent that this puppy just did not know how to play or interact with us and was quite unresponsive to us no matter how excitable and encouraging our voices were. When a friend of ours came by they of course wanted to introduce their lab to ours and without hesitation he growled and he meant it-it wasn't however in a dominance attempt he had his tail between his legs and was hiding behind my legs. So we continued to introduce him to other dogs and even obtained a jack russell as a buddy which despite my apprehension of jack russell's it has worked very well and Dave now wants to play the legs off of other dogs. Yet 8 weeks ago he developed a dislike to what appeared to be women and children, was this walking him to school that did it? But now if we walk past someone he decides is in his space he lunges at them which with a 9 month old lab can be terrifying. He also chased down one of my son's friends which terrified the friend and me. That has been the turning point I'm terrified of taking him anywhere the way things are, much for his own protection as I don't want him to be destroyed. Can this be fixed? It seems so hard to break in comparison to the dog on dog situation, but again I don't feel it is dominance as the tail is usually between the legs and if I so much as raise my voice he rolls on his back with his legs in the air!

Any advice greatly appreciated and if I can give you any more info ask away!

Terri

There is a lot that can be done to help him, however you really do need the help of a good behaviourist.
I'm sure others will be on soon with recomendations of behaviourists and what to look out for/avoid.

Some other questions that may help with advice -
Has he been castrated?
As he had a thorough vet check to rule out any underlying medical causes?

Thanks. He is going to vet tomorrow. I have been holding out on the castration front as he is still a little on the small side but will certainly bring subject up tomorrow. That is a really good point though I do need to know what to look for!

Your probably more taken aback that labs are supposed to be a happy, go lucky friendly breed, they are supposed to love everyone and everything, well, as long as they come from good breeders and are well socialised. I'm sad to say that bad temperaments are coming through in all breeds today, generally due to people breeding who shouldn't be.

However, the key to most of your dogs problems is socialisation. Did you do puppy classes? They really are essential for socialisation and teaching you how to cope with a lot of situations. Enrole, not too late, if you haven't done so already. :-)

The things that your dog is afraid of you need to help associate with good things, so friends, children, males you know, under well supervised control they need to give your dog a treat to help with this fear aggression.

I certainly would recommend you find a good behaviourist, via other people's word of mouth to help have this problem running on the right tracks, no negative or punishment based training. I hope this can be fixed, sometimes bad temperaments are very hard to correct, your pup should not be reacting like this at all for a lab it is bad, but I have to say it is not unusual, always source good breeders in future. :-)

I would guess this is due to lack of being socialised at an early age (a lot of pups left at 14 weeks? not good either really) and also possibly his second Fear Period kicking in a bit. When this happens, the owner needs to allow the dog to take it slowly, let them look and work things out - e.g. some dogs can be scared of chairs they've seen before, mine was suddenly worried about fishermen, etc. Even though they've seen these things before. Whatever happens, no telling off and no forcing to face it, kind  of thing.

I agree you definitely need a reputable behaviourist - whatever you do, don't wait. It will be money well spent at the end of the day. I'd suggest checking out www.apbc.org.uk for a reputable one. Otherwise be extremely careful, as there are many charlatans out there professing to know things that they actually don't!

It may be that your boy's behaviour cannot be sorted out 100% but it will be able to be helped and he should become more confident.
Whatever you do, DON'T castrate him yet!! This could be a disaster. Testosterone is not just the male hormone, it also gives social confidence. If this goes, it will be MUCH harder to help him. Please trust me on this.

Good luck

Lindsay
x

I totally agree and the kennel club affiliation is certainly nothing to go by, he is kc registered, I met both parents and so on. He is my 3rd labrador and this is my first experience of such a temperament. Again he hasn't been to puppy class due to the earlier issues with dog on dog fear aggression. He has however come to work with me everyday to our garage where he has met all kinds of people but it has been like somebody flicked a switch!

Still he is here and I'm hopeful we can work this out as with me he is a lovely boy!

thats an interesting comment Lindsay about testoeterone and social confidenc. On advice I had my boy castrated at 10months with hind site and more knowledge (thank you champdog people ) some of the things we have had to work through I now believe I should have left it longer.

Thank you Lindsay!

>I have been holding out on the castration front as he is still a little on the small side but will certainly bring subject up tomorrow.

As Lindsay said, don't castrate a fearful dog; it will only increase his fears and make him worse. Testosterone is the hormone that gives confidence - your boy needs all he can get at the moment.

I would suggest a reputable behaviourist/trainer who will be able to help you overcome his fears. Have a look at the Association of Pet Dog Trainers website and see if there's a trainer near you. I've heard very good reports about them.

You've had some good advice already, all of which I agree with; find a good behaviourist, do no tforce anything, only use kindness and rewards, no force, do not castrate. In addition I'd say you need to be aware that this will take TIME as it has to be taken slowly. (I have a dog similar to this and I have so far worked with him for over 2 years -and he's only 2 ½. We're not there yet. ) My question is whether you met his mother and any other relatives? For some breeds (like my own) it would be very difficult to take on a 14 week old pup that hasn't been socialised, but a Labrador should really be able to take it in their stride more than many as they usually have such wonderful natures, so I can't help but wonder if it is part lack of socialisation and part genetic.

Just to make it clear - the reason I asked if he is castrated is that it can cause problems with dog-dog interactions (as other have said), the fact that he hasn't been, rules that cause out - I wasn't suggesteting that he should be castrated.

Just out of interest what has the breeder said and are they ABS accredited?

Agree with he advice get a good behaviourist involved as soon as possible. Where in he country are you ?

Hi Cully

I agree with Lindsay, please make sure you see a good behaviourist before you allow your vet to castrate your boy.  Fear aggression (by far the most common type) can be made a whole lot worse by neutering.  Do not delay getting him to a behaviourist - things could escalate!

In addition i recommend this trainer's book, which is even downloadable to read online.   http://www.amazon.co.uk/Help-Your-Fearful-Step---Step/dp/B004IARWBI/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1300731324&sr=8-12

Have you been in contact with your dog's breeder since you brought your puppy home?  Were they able to offer you any help or advice?

Hope you manage to get him feeling more happy and more like the lab you were expecting as part of your family x

I have a lady coming to see me who is accredited to the paact and PETbc who seems very confident with working with our issues. I can't afford £200 a go at the uwe Langford Centre in Bristol and my insurance doesn't cover this either. I will gladly give my boy all the time he needs but am also conscious that he has to have a good lifestyle and that has become more difficult due to lunging at strangers etc. I'm in Bristol. The breeder couldn't be less interested and in comparison to the breeders of my first 2 was shocking, again it was pity that brought Dave home with me!

Hi whereabouts in Bristol are you?  Are you willing to travel to nr Weston Super Mare for a course or 1:1?  Have a look at Little Orchard and maybe give Sarah a ring - she's very good

Why does your insurance exclude help on his behaviour ? If your vet refers you they should pay ?

Not all insurance policies cover treatment from behaviourists unfortunately. :-(

Cuffy,I have sent you a private message.The trainer you have coming to see you may be one I know of who uses very harsh techniques,several people I know have used someone accredited with these 2 organisations and ended up having their dogs PTS as her training made them worse.Of course,it may not be her at all.
You need someone who uses kind methods.I don't know Sarah at Little Orchard(dogs a babe's suggestion) personally but I live in Weston super mare and have heard good things about her.

Have you had hearing and eyes checked?  Just that you say that he was unresponsive to your different tones etc. just wondering whether there could be a health problem behind this.

In addition i recommend this trainer's book, which is even downloadable to read online.

The phrase "How to establish leadership so your dog will feel more secure" worries me somewhat -what does she actually advocate in this book? It's quite expensive for a Kindle book otherwise I'd have downloaded it to read but don't want to waste money on somebody who still believes in dominance and pack theories so wanted to check first.

Most good insurers will :-)

Hi Cuffy,

I've been through the same situation in the last year, with an almost identical pattern of behaviour. Unfortunately I was only able to partially resolve the issues, but there are 2 things I learned which I thought might help you:

Firstly - get a headcollar. You will be advised that when people are approaching you and Dave sees them, you should remain calm and confident, tell him cheerily what a good boy he is and feed him high value treats. It's difficult to do this if you're worried he's going to lunge. If he's wearing a headcollar you can easily prevent him lunging and it's easier to get his attention to feed him the treat. I wish I'd started using the headcollar alot earlier than I did as it really helped resolve the onlead aggression and gave me alot more confidence on walks.

Secondly - don't see a behaviourist who just does consultations and then issues a report - instead see a behaviourist who will also do practical training sessions with you and your dog. You've done enough research to know what the root of your dogs aggression is and you've probably done some reading on positive ways to try to resolve the issue - getting him to associate people with good things using food and toys and building social interaction up slowly to set him up for success.
A behaviourist can charge you over 200 pounds to repeat alot of this back to you in a report and then leave you to take all the practical steps yourself. If your confidence is already low because of the aggression incidents you need more than this. You need someone to take those first steps with you, monitor the dog in the situations where he becomes aggressive and observe how well you're able to implement the modification techniques. I consulted with 2 different apdt behaviourists at £200 a time, but I wish I had spent that money on a trainer who had experience of aggression and would have worked with me in situ to build the confidence of both me and my dog.

I wish you the best of luck in turning this around as I know how painful this situation is.

I totally agree with Toon.  Headcollars are wonderful for giving you back control and once you notice the small changes in behaviour that occur before a lunge or growl you will be able to intercept it and the headcollar will prevent the dog being able to leave the ground!

Even if your dog can't be completely 'fixed', you will be better able to manage it if you learn about your dogs behaviour and try to train out some of the undesirable behaviours.  Good luck but persistence and dedication will serve you better than luck.

Hmmm well having had a discussion with hubby it would seem that our woofie hound is fine with him and didn't lunge at anyone yesterday so maybe it is me?! Have messaged Little Orchard. Gotta get moving on this I think!

Thanks all of you who are responding so helpful!

>Have messaged Little Orchard

A message is good but do try and speak to Sarah if you can, or Alex.  I think you'll find them reassuring :)  Both have 'rescued' damaged kennel bound dogs and Sarah has achieved things with a Staffy you wouldn't believe unless you saw it!

Sending positive thoughts to you and Dave - I do love that name.  It reminds me of my son's favourite poem by Dr Seuss

Hi Marianne

I think her publishers might need to rethink their blurb!  The description is a bit unfortunate and doesnt give the right impression ......

You can read a bit about Nicole on this website  http://dogtime.com/experts/nicole-wilde .  You're right it is expensive for a kindle version but assuming it's the same as the book, it's quite in depth.  Also more useful information and articles written by her on here http://www.phantompub.com/

http://www.phantompub.com/HelpForYourFearfulDogBook.htm - this is the one I have and I'm planning to add a few more of her books to my collection.

Would be interested to know what you think

If its you and not OT then you can be sure it's the way he perceives you as a result of the way you are with him. There is a recent Cordoba Uni study on this with around 711 dogs 50% M & 50% F with a very easy to understand youtube breakdown of the data and the studies conclusions, the youtube video compares it with a discredited study which only comprised of a total of 19 neutered male dogs confined for 6 months in a shelter and a link to download the Cordoba Uni study for free, beter than any speculative book imo
Link here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=561X6qnI-ls&feature=related
I agree with many here that you need to be very careful who you hire as a behaviourist, Bristol uni might be £200 but how many visits and how much in total are you going to pay anywhere else? the idea of simply paying someone £100-£200 for a one off quick fix is simply pie in the sky thinking or sheer desperation, desperation is when we make more mistakes then usual, also, don't overlook the fact that behaviourists are business people first & formost. This video link below will give you some users feedback on their experience of behaviousts so think about where your money goes first before you leap into what might end up a worse situation with the addition of loosing all the money you pay.

Users feedback link click any of the video links
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=apbc+dog+dies&btnG=Search&aq=o&aqi=&aql=&oq=
.

Whereabouts in Bristol are you. 

My friend Sue Cook runs Pet Obedience classes (Kingswood dog Training club) and has a lot of practical experience of a lifetime in dogs, in obedience, (having kept up to a dozen dogs at a tiem bertween her hubby and son) having owned a lot of different breeds (mainly rescues) as well as her and hubby's main breeds (GSD and Border collies, also often rescues).

I can give you her number to discuss your problems and see if joining class with some remedial help.  the classes are a by the session basis (around £2 - £) with a small annual membership.  Attending class may give you and him more confidence to deal with the other issues.

love that poem!

Thanks Alysce -am very reassured after reading up. :)

You're welcome :-)

> <B sab="50">don't castrate a fearful dog

i dont dispute this statement at all as i completely understand the reasoning behind it BUT, i had a really really bad case of fear aggression.
I not only used the CM tactics (much to my immense regret now) i have since learned better. But he did improve after castration. I did do it probably at the same time as i changed to kinder methods, but it did seem to calm him down??
He does still have his moment where he gives me his "look" which before would have resulted in me telling him off, him growling, then a stand off.
Now i just laugh at him call him a name i cant use on here and ignore him and seconds later he realises he was indeed that naughty word i called him and he comes up to say sorry.

"he did improve after castration. I did do it probably at the same time as i changed to kinder methods, but it did seem to calm him down??"

Would you not agree that it's likely that it was the kinder methods that had the desired effect?  It may be that it would not have been necessary to castrate him at all, indeed the calming effect of his hormones (serotonin uptake is affected by neutering) would have assisted in his improvement.

oh absolutely it was the kinder methods, i totally agree. But he was castrated at the same time and some times he became fearful of things you or i would find strange, ie something we wouldnt find threatening. I think in general i do agree its best to wait to castate as i agree with why but i also think it should be decided on an individual basis

But he did improve after castration. I did do it probably at the same time as i changed to kinder methods, but it did seem to calm him down??

I think it can vary. I know somebody with a fearful male dog and she decided to go for chemical castration to see what it would do to him. It actually improved him so she went ahead with castration. Her feeling was that he no longer felt the need to act all macho around other males so it generally calmed him. After hearing this I went down the same route with my own problem boy after discussing it with my vet. He was implanted with Suprelorin a couple of months ago and if we don't see any negative changes in the next few months we will have him castrated around June time. I'm not doing it without checking it carefully first though, will put him through situations I know bothers him (kindly, of course -together with our trainer) to make sure he doesn't react any worse than before. So far we have only seen positive changes such as no leg cocking indoors when I recently had a bitch in season in another room and that used to happen without fail. This boy is fully mature though! (2 ½.) And I would NEVER go ahead and castrate without first trying it out the chemical way so that it CAN be reversed.

The Langford centre at uwe where we were referred has said that they are pleased that we have held of on castration as the lack of hormones would cause his fear to be increased which of course we do not want! They are going to try and get him in next week as it is very much as asap situation. He is still my lovely boy and is such a good boy with me, he hasn't growled at anyone in the family including the extended family.

Back from the VET who was very lucky he had a muzzle on, he really wasn't letting her in his space! I think the husband might be a little off on this one as he was on a beach in March with a dog who had plenty of space, try a pavement dear and you will see was my response. The vet has referred us and was insistent on the urgency and I have moved insurers today as on reading the fine print it would seem not much is covered! For £3 extra a month I think I will move!

I would like that number for the dog classes in Kingswood please, I think it would be good for him once we get past this!

> The vet has referred us and was insistent on the urgency and I have moved insurers today as on reading the fine print it would seem not much is covered! For £3 extra a month I think I will move!<BR sab="49"><BR sab="50">

If you mean little is covered in behaviourist terms on your policy you may not be covered on your new policy as it will be an existing condition.

No the cover isn't adequate in any sense so I have arranged better cover. I know this won't be covered which is a shame but I will happily pay myself if we can get him past his fear!                                                                                                                                                                                                   

Just to make it clear - the reason I asked if he is castrated is that it can cause problems with dog-dog interactions (as other have said), the fact that he hasn't been, rules that cause out - I wasn't suggesteting that he should be castrated.

Yes absolutely Mastifflover, we know you wouldn't say he should be castrated :)
Thought that was why you said it.

Lindsay
x

Cuffy,

You've had good advice and I cannot add to it in general. I wanted to ask if you had had a chance to see your pup's parents or knew anything about them temperament wise?

I think Cuffy has said that she did meet both the parents.

Yes, I see that Cuffy said she met both parents, I just wondered what she made of them.

Yes you can really turn round fear aggressive dogs. I use a technique with a remote collar that causes the dog to have confidence in you and in itself. Its very effective and will massively improve the dogs life and safety.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl-6T1fk3Os

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=856B598TVf4

Adam

So your zapping the dog for being fearful :( :(

No!

Your teaching the dog to focus on you and then using that level of focus to expose him to the scary stuff without him reacting!

He then gets used to the scary stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zgFTXmJKw4

Adam