>Er no, because shelties are as yet a 'newish' breed and haven't 'settled' down in the heights as yet -

If I recall the breed was recognised by the KC in 1909. Allowing 2 years per generation, that's 50 generations ago ...

That's when the first breed club was set up - the dogs certainly didn't look like they do now! Far from it!  At that time breeders started to 'shape the breed' and standardise the type. This meant that Rough Collies were introduced - which really set out how the breed looks, but gave some of the size differences.  Some shelties were exhibited in 1906 - the first CC awarded in Birmingham in 1915.  Before the introduction of the rough collie the original 'sheltie' was very much a mongrel with some interesting blood.  Margaret Norman says in her book 'no doubt the fact that size is still a problem can be levelled at the Collie influence! The present day sheltie unfortunately shows a big variation in height.  We have all tried to standardise size in our various strains but still that big one crops up, as, in fact, does the little one.  The bigger ones must be 'throwbacks' to the days when the early breeders openly crossed the little mongrel from the Shetland Isles with Collies to improve the type and appearance'.  Margaret Norman was a huge influence in sheltie circles - she believes that the make up of the sheltie means we still have a lot of 'work' to do to standardise size even after all this time, although her book was written in 1998, it still holds true.

It's no use saying that shelties should be standardised by now - they're not, you can have a wide range of sizes in litters and likely to have for some considerable generations to come.  It doesn't help having a very narrow height in the standard.  In other breeds (border collie eg) there's an accepted height difference, although smaller dogs now seem preferred in the show ring, but of course this is a breed where working ability is also a major factor so the show ring has less influence on the majority of border collies.  Don't go saying that everyone should breed to the show requirements as KC registration and showing are merely one element of border collie breeding.

Some other considerations on size of shelties

'Everybody involved in sheltie breeding knows that size problems are still inherent in the breed and most of us have experienced that these can occur in quite different dimensions and shapes' - Maurice Baker, Shetland Sheepdogs Today.

First there's a moderate size variation which is more often towards the bigger sizes.  There is a suggestion by Mr Baker that these may be 'preferred by breeders and exhibitors!  Secondly there are 'wrong' sizes - firstly miniature shelties which can crop up frequently and sometimes afflict the whole litter.  Secondly there's the production of very small offspring (often but not always bitches) and rather big offspring (often but not always dogs).

Maurice Baker additionally says 'we knew that shelties of the correct size may produce oversize shelties as this has long since been a problem'.  and 'There seems no obvious indications that these growers may occasionally reach the enormous size of twenty inches even from matings where no oversized sheltie is in sight in the pedigree.  The reason why ... seems as easy as complex.  Obviously this phenomenon still testifies for the collie crossings .... done to improve type.  Subsequent to the collie cross the breeders did quite close line breeding to the collie ancestor which certainly has contributed to the genetical fixation of the collie heritage. The resurrection of these ancient collies in our sheltie litters suggests that the ideal sized generations between were all carriers of the collie gene.'

It seems like 50 generations (or however many) is as yet insufficient for us to get bitches of 14" and dogs of 14 1/2" without also getting a lot of very small, very large and a high number of inbetween sizes.  It's clear that even only breeding from 'correct' height dogs will not solve the problem and we may be 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater' if we restrict breeding to those who are themselves the correct height or produce puppies only of the correct height.  My own Dizzy had two pups in her first litter - perfect size, one pup in second litter (different sire) who was tiny.  Yet parents are the 'correct height'.  The sire also produced my second bitch - looking at her and Dizzy's pup you wouldn't think they were related. We may as well forget breeding shelties if you reduced the gene pool in this way.

Maggie - get a pen/pencil and as she goes past something suitable make a mark across the top of her shoulder and measure the mark - I used to use the dish washer and felt tip pen but eventually it stopped washing off...just to see how the pups were growing... I moved to the kitchen table and a pencil where the marks aren't really seen ;-)

The minaturisation of all breeds has been achieved by using the smaller examples of the breed and keeping the smaller pups.
Breeding from bigger individuals will have a knock on effect on the wider gene pool.

To say that something is 'just the way it is' seems a little strange. If humans can change a species into Great Danes and Chihuahuas then they most certainly can standardise a sheltie.

PennyGC have you much experience of breeding Shetland Sheepdogs? Have you bred many generations? Im interested to understand the problem here.

Toolz - you (deliberately?) misunderstand me... I'm saying that within the breed there are major size problems, these are well known - if you're interested I suggest that you read up about the breed.  How it was put together has caused these problems and it will take a while yet to resolve them.  Making digs at someone's knowledge isn't helpful here - I'm sure you don't mean to, but your comment implies that the problem with shelties is mine!  I'm relatively new to shelties, but have put a lot of effort into learning about them. It's a breed which is notoriously 'difficult' to 'get right'.  There isn't a 'problem' for you to understand to be blunt!  There is a size problem, in fact two size problems within shelties and breeders have to accept that these occur... not deny the existence.  Merely following the 'great danes and chihuahuas' argument doesn't solve a problem which has existed for 100 years in shelties and likely to continue despite breeders (including myself) attempts to resolve.  Simply breeding dogs who are the 'correct' size hasn't resolved the issue in the past and is unlikely to in the foreseeable future.  If you discount all the dogs who are not spot on 14" and 14 1/2" (with an inch upwards) would mean a drastically reduced gene pool and horrendous health issues - polarising shelties and decreasing everytime a small or large pup was born.  As breeders we have to accept that size issues happen and work round them.  Talk to any reputable sheltie breeder and you'll find that breeding shelties 'aint easy' and many give up and turn to 'easier' breeds.  I'm fortunate in knowing fantastic breeders who are very supportive of my efforts, even though at the moment I don't show (I do agility), allowing me to use their dogs and selling me their bitches. Having a go at me wont change the issues of the breed :-)

>Penny thanks for your reply i tryed measuring her with tape but i keep coming up with diffrent sizes as she will not stay still long enough for me to get it done and my husand cannot hold her as he is to ill to do so ,so best i get someone more up on this than me to do.

Here's a quick and easy way to get a rough idea. Find a doorway in a room with a flat solid floor (not carpet). Stand your bitch against the door jamb, making sure she is standing square and correctly. Have a hardback book in one hand and a pencil in the other. Slide the book over your dog's withers keeping it horizontal and making sure it is in contact with the dog. Tell the dog to move away, but keep the book there and mark the doorframe under the book with the pencil. Measure from floor to the mark with tape measure.

> Talk to any reputable sheltie breeder and you'll find that breeding shelties 'aint easy'

What makes you think I havent?

I wont continue with this thread as you appear very sensitive for what ever reason.

There is a size problem, in fact two size problems within shelties and breeders have to accept that these occur... not deny the existence.
Nobody is denying that there's a problem.  Our difference of opinion is about encouraging a novice owner with a bitch who has a size (and possible eye) problem to produce puppies perpetuating problems rather than help her to work in the direction of improving the breed that she loves.

And your knowledge is so contrary to mine that we obviously know different experienced Sheltie breeders...... :)  But then after 30 years, what would I know... :)

Toolz - by your comments basically :-(  I'm not at all 'sensitive' but don't like the 'tone' which was used in your postings so glad that you're bowing out from this thread as your contribution wasn't helping the OP and was basically a bit weird...

Westcoast - indeed yes, well it's unlikely that the bitch is particularly oversize, if you'd bothered to find out, and it's also unlikely that the eye problem is such that it would prevent breeding.  Plenty of other reasons not to breed but to be particularly unpleasant about it all is unnecessary.  Yes, you were denying a problem stating such things as 'there are plenty of breeders who don't have a size problem (really???) unless they 'go outside their lines' - it would be interesting to know the sheltie lines without any size issue and of course line breeding has it's limitations and perhaps size like HD can 'hide' in lines only to come out when all the genes 'line up' with an outcross.  I'm surprised anyone bothers to ask for help when the responses are as have been in this thread.  When anyone comes in with something you don't agree with (but now apparently you're agreeing with me) - you jump down their throats.... not very pleasant however I'm not easily 'bullied' and am happy to try and help people work through the issues rather than telling them my opinions and expecting everyone to just do as I say.

As for sheltie breeders there are 'breeders' and their are 'breeders', I've been very fortunate in who I've befriended and who has been very willing to help - probably because I am open to (sensible) suggestions and opinions.  Unfortunately time doing something doesn't always mean that you know more at the end of it than within a short time :-(  Interesting you imply that my breeder 'friends' have only been in the 'breed' for a short time which is wide of the mark by a considerable distance - you of course have implied that because I haven't been in the 'breed' for long (true) that I know nothing (untrue) of the breed. 

I'm sure that you have some knowledge, but it hasn't come over very well in this thread, sorry to say.  Please don't try and 'trash' other people's opinions or knowledge because, to be honest, it comes over as you with less knowledge such has been the case with the size and eye element here, sadly :-( perhaps in trying to score 'points' and stop someone from exploring their options you've not come over as knowing about some elements... for instance that I would put pups health at risk by breeding from a genetically clear bitch and a possible carrier dog.  By attempting to deride my interest in an 'at risk' colour you're suggesting that breeders don't breed with colour in mind...which is laughable.  I also have a carrier bitch who I bred from - with genetically clear dogs, putting 'on hold' my interest in black and white because I couldn't find any suitable genetically clear dogs in the UK at the time.  However, you're not interested in the reality - but on sneering at me, which I find unpleasant.

I hope that the OP hasn't been put off coming on here to discuss issues in the future.  I hope that many of the comments have helped her in making a decision over whether or not to breed from her bitch.

 
Thank you for advice measured her this morning more than once to make sure .She is exactly 15inches at withers so not oversized  .but will aslo have this confirmed at my vet .My other point is the person who is registered as the west coast  oh here ,trying to be help full actually  at preached at me  and  made me feel as if i   should  a be shamed of myself and my dog  for even thinking of breeding a bitch that might  not fit the perfect sheltie image  . If this is kind respones poeple get for asking question maybe then  will they stop asking and then where will any breed of dog gene pool be .

I will not be using this site again to ask question as last thing i need is abuse  .

I'm sorry that you feel that way maggie55 but that's a frequent response when novices don't get the answers that they'd hoped for.  If you want someone to tell you what you want to hear rather than the way to make a positive contribution to your breed after many years of experience, then you know who to ask for help. 
The members of this board have always tried to support and encourage good breeding practices rather than just producing puppies.  I wish you all the best with your breeding program.

Maggie 55 - it is not that we expect people to breed perfect examples of their breed but we would hope that someone who asks for advice would be wanting to do their best for the breed and not be putting their pet bitch at risk just because they have a fancy to breed a litter, one would expect someone contemplating breeding a litter to at least try to do their best to produce a sound healthy litter with good bred type.

Great news Maggie! Lets hope she's finished growing, my girl had stopped at 9 months old. :) I did say you she didnt look too oversized ;)
It maybe worth showing her, she is on the top end of the scale but some judges like the bigger ones more. I can tell everyone reading this that Maggies bitch is beautiful and a good example of the breed now shes been found to be within standard hight it just confirms that with the correct tests and the right stud Maggie could well offer a great litter to the world.

Sorry you feel I am trying to upset the OP and that my comments are unhelpful - would you want me to say something that I do not believe. As far as I understand this is a bitch that has yet to be tested either for health or conformation and all I ask is that it should be done before mating and the reason to breed her is thought through. Good sense really, nothing to upset anyone I would not have thought.

It's the way it's all been put really...

>will also contact the Sheltie club where i live and ask if someone would please take a look at my girl and for them to tell  her faults if any ,  then once all this is done ,i will make a more infromed  decision as to weather t breed her or not

You were asking about ringcraft for your puppy in October last year, how are you getting on now?  Have you shown her yet?

These are both pretty good places to get an idea of the quality of your bitch (leaving health issues aside for the moment).  Not every judge will like her but after a time you'll get a sense of her quality as good dogs often find themselves placing well, even in novice hands (I have me in mind here! :) )

Breeding isn't my area but I've read enough to know that many of those who have contributed to this thread are passionate about this subject and make a lot of sense.  I see that there have been a number of Private Messages which make a thread hard to follow and perhaps they contain more detailed information you haven't shared with the wider group.  If you want to make an informed decision then it's always a good idea to listen to both sides of the debate, particularly when they do not agree with you.  You don't have to decide right away but do consider their responses objectively before you do.  Good luck with the showing :)

Yes i did take her  to ringcraft classes  thanks ,she hate it  and i was totally stressed out .I also took her to  a show and  she did the puppy walk  she didn't like that either .she played up the whole time she was  in ring and wouldn't do any thing including walk she decide she was going to run instead . she course  has grown much bigger since then ,but still feel she wouldn't be happy in ring so no i will not be showing her .

Where i agree with you that i should listen to both side  of the debate and  i have taken on broad  everything that has been said  . but feel some thing could have been put over a little  better  . Neverless  i  been given  lots of good advice  on here  and far as i concerned I will be checking out her health issue as well as finding out  her faults . but as far concerned this debate is now at end for me  thanks .

I see that there have been a number of Private Messages which make a thread hard to follow and perhaps they contain more detailed information you haven't shared with the wider group.

Any PM's sent by me have been to help Maggie be put in touch with a website full of people with great information which they may not wish to be published on here and advice on health tests.

I have seen Maggies bitch and she is beautiful. Lets hope her health tests come back well.

I see that there have been a number of Private Messages which make a thread hard to follow and perhaps they contain more detailed information you haven't shared with the wider group.  If you want to make an informed decision then it's always a good idea to listen to both sides of the debate, particularly when they do not agree with you.

No, it was shared (but ignored?) here... size issue was fully discussed here on the forum

I have been following this thread with interest as it is quite possible that it might be relevant to my own situation.

I have learnt a lot and have found the discussion to be extremely valuable.

I would just like to offer my grateful thanks to everyone who took the time.....out of what must be an extremely busy day (?)..... to contribute to this thread.

Thanks again and I will update when I know more.

Maggie I feel you may have not given enough time to trying the ring-craft and showing.

I have owned some very naughty puppies who have gone on to do extremely well, and on occasion are still very naughty when showing (on is an 11 year odl champion with 10CC' numerous RCC's and Championship Group placings etc), LOL.

All you need to do is learn to relax and the rest will come.

If your bitch really hated the training and showing experience so much this might be another consideration as to whether she should be bred from.

Some dogs are showing fools and really show off, but most that have acceptable typical temperaments should be able to show and enjoy being centre of attention and getting treats.

If she really found it that stressful and unpleasant then again it might be anther thing to consider as to whether she should be bred from, as such character traits are inherited align with other traits.  I am sure that is not so, and you simply need to give ehr and yourself time.

Without showing her for a reasonable time and at a variety of shows an under various judges you will nto get a balanced idea of her quality.

Of course the shows are also the place to see potential studs and the offspring of those your considering, so even if you don't show her you should attend breed club and championship shows where CC's are on offer for the breed to see quality dogs..

Hi Thank you for you posting ,I have contacted and become a memeber of the local shetland sheepdog club who have been invited   along to a breed specific seminar in May and a show in June . I also had long talk with them  and have asked  if someone will look at my pup and give their opinion, this is already in process . i will think again about taking her back to the ring and attending ringcraft classes  in due  course .

Hi Maggie, There's an Open show this Sunday (27th) at Ardingly and the sheltie classes are supported by the local sheltie branch of the ESSC. I don;t know where you're based but if you can come along - I will be there with 2 of my shelties.
I must say I think there has been some good things discussed here even though some of the advice is a bit extreme!
I do believe breeding from health tested stock is a must! I do think you must look at your bitch and look at the standard to see what good bits she has and what you need to "improve" through breeding her BUT I don't think you can say that you should discard a sheltie JUST on size! 15 inches is within standard anyway but I still think anyone in shelties knows how difficult size can be and I do not know of any lines who produce shelties always on size!

JMHO

Hi Maggie, There's an Open show this Sunday (27th) at Ardingly and the sheltie classes are supported by the local sheltie branch of the ESSC. I don;t know where you're based but if you can come along - I will be there with 2 of my shelties.
I must say I think there has been some good things discussed here even though some of the advice is a bit extreme!
I do believe breeding from health tested stock is a must! I do think you must look at your bitch and look at the standard to see what good bits she has and what you need to "improve" through breeding her BUT I don't think you can say that you should discard a sheltie JUST on size! 15 inches is within standard anyway but I still think anyone in shelties knows how difficult size can be and I do not know of any lines who produce shelties always on size!

Great post. :)

And from someone I trust alot.

If size is a problem in Shelties I would have thought it best to avoid an oversized bitch unless she has other outstanding features. By using oversized animals, won't it just produce more oversized puppies?

The breed standard says re height:
Size

Ideal height at withers: dogs: 37 cms (141/2 ins); bitches: 35.5 cms (14 ins). More than 2.5 cms (1 in) above or below these heights highly undesirable.

So a 15 inch bitch is still within tolerance, assuming she doesn't grow any more.

She has now been the same height since she 8mth and 10 mth on 9 April so to be honest i think thats her finished growing ,but then i could be wrong

I brainless for posting abt height but i have sereval books on height so i  knew what acceptable  .

My post was to answer those who didn't.

well apart from maggie's dog NOT being oversized, I suggest you read the posts on the problems of size in shelties that I've put up - extracts from two books on shelties.  Shelties have particular problems in size - ie you can get a wide variation in sizes even from spot on height parents - variations of tiny (usually bitches) and giants (usually dogs) in the litter.  There's also a variation around the 'accepted' height for shelties - possibly because it's a very tight height limit.  It's an issue which is yet to be resolved in shelties and is probably due to the variations in breeds making up the sheltie in early 20thC and (for the bigger ones) the input of rough collie - which fixed 'type' but threw a spanner in the works for size.  All lines of shelties are affected by these variations.

All lines of shelties are affected by these variations
How about qualifying that with 'some more than others' just to give an accurate presentation of the breed to those who have no experience of it?  We obviously know very different lines as the long established breeders that I know only produce a very occassional pup that doesn't mature within the standard! :)

All lines of shelties are affected by these variations
How about qualifying that with 'some more than others' just to give an accurate presentation of the breed to those who have no experience of it?  We obviously know very different lines as the long established breeders that I know only produce a very occassional pup that doesn't mature within the standard! :-)

ALL LINES OF SHELTIES ARE AFFECTED BY THESE VARIATIONS

I do agree that some shelties produce more variation in size and keeping to size is the way try and limit those variations - not all litters of shelties will grow too big and too small puppies either BUT I dont think it's fair to say that "experienced breeders" have more puppies within the height standard either.
Let's just say size is one issue breeders have to take into account when breeding their shelties (but cetainly NOT the only one!)

He who shouts loudest thinks he knows best?? :)

You keep arguing West Coast, doing a lot of shouting without any substance...I'm repeating my comments that all lines are affected by a size problem, perhaps you could get the sheltie breeders who breed to a standard size every time to come on here and tell us who they are and how they do it....

Yes a very sensible post, as expected :-)

We obviously know very different lines as the long established breeders that I know only produce a very occassional pup that doesn't mature within the standard

Would love to know which line this is because obviously I have been around the wrong people.
Oversized and undersized pups are common in shelties regardless of the "lines". Many breeders dont acknowledge the faulty dogs in their lines yet still use them for breeding because well, they are just as good as any. Perfect example of this is that one of my dogs breeders has loads of pictures up of dogs from her dog that have done well in the ring yet with the amount of litters the breeder has I can tell you that its only a small % of the dogs they have. So what about the pet dogs? The ones with straight up ears and high set tails or the ones that are to tall? Many breeders have these pups.

My bitch's parents are both show dogs her dads a champion yet she is over sized. As far back as I can go in her line has been between 14-15 inches.
I think I will stick with what I have been told by breeders who have been breeding for 40-50 years and all breeders that I have spoken with have told the same story, height is a problem in shelties however a tall bitch or tall dog can produce a standard sized pup.

However if you want to say which line you are talking about my PM box is open :)

I am not shouting - just stating facts.  Capital letters on the net is considered shouting.  I have no need to do that.

Why on earth should successful Sheltie breeders be interested in explaining their breeding practices to those who think they already know all there is to know?  They are well established, they breed Champions, give tickets and have waiting lists for their puppies.  They would be happy to help any new enthusiasts who want to learn but they certainly wouldn't waste their time on those who have been in the breed for a few years and think they know all the answers.

One of my dogs won Limit Dog at Crufts this year.  How did dogs that you've bred do?  Then perhaps we can talk about your breeding methods and practices that achieved such success.

My concern is that novices who want to breed should be given the correct advice to help them on their way to produce more than just pet quality puppies.  So I would suggest to the OP that they seek advice from breeders who consistantly produce dogs placed at Champ Shows rather than Open Shows if they want to help the Sheltie gene pool. :)

One of my dogs won Limit Dog at Crufts this year.  How did dogs that you've bred do?

Was it a sheltie? 

How about answering the question instead of asking another?  What have you achieved with your breeding or are you just repeating what you've heard someone else say?

My aim is to help the Original Poster to make an informed decision.  Is your aim just to have the last word?  If so, then you're welcome.  Over to you.  I think that I've said enough for anyone reading this thread to understand the situation.  :)

I have no more time to waste so I'll put you on my ignore list.  Bye.

How about answering the question instead of asking another?  What have you achieved with your breeding or are you just repeating what you've heard someone else say?

My aim is to help the Original Poster to make an informed decision.  Is your aim just to have the last word?  If so, then you're welcome.  Over to you.  I think that I've said enough for anyone reading this thread to understand the situation.  :-)

Your posts don't interest me anymore so I'll put you on my ignore list.  Bye.

So, WestCoast has not bred ANY shelties, and the fact that at least 3 sheltie people on this thread have explained about the size issue in shelties WC is determined that WC is right.  Even when the sheltie in question isn't even oversize the pushing and trashing continues.

For the record I don't show - for me it's not the important area, I do agility with my dogs.  If I had a sheltie worth showing I'd probably get someone else to show it!  I've bred 3 litters, first litter 2 pups of correct size, second litter one puppy too small.  Both bitch and both sires are correct size (both sires are show champions).  The 3rd litter I don't know how they're going to be size wise as yet.

I have taken a significant interest in shelties and those sheltie people on here have echoed my thoughts.

The size issue here has been a red herring - because Maggie's dog is the 'correct size' albeit at the top end of the 'correct size'.  Postings have been about who knows most, who's done this and who's done that.  WestCoast has merely proved that WC's knowlege of shelties is limited (more Rough Collie I believe) and instead of being interested in the posts on shelties and size merely poo pooed them.

Hopefully this is the end of the matter - as instead of admitting WC doesn't breed/show shelties they've gone.  Thankfully :-)

I didn't want to close this thread but it looks like the bickering is not going to stop and comments are becoming personal in nature so I have no choice. I hope the OP can ignore the argumentative comments and make use of much of the sensible advice that has been given on this thread.