Hi
I want to breed my little sheltie bitch when she comes into her second heat  ,she is K.C.reg has a great pedigree .only problem is she over bigger than the standered size that is used for showing . I had her eyes tested and unfected from both CEA and PRA although  i have been adivised to breed her to a stud dog who is  clear eye cert , I not doing think abt doing on whim i have read lots on breeding and gentics i also kept shelties for years . Just wonder how breeder fell abt breeding  a bitch who is noet the right size

How tall is she over the breed size?, has she full dentation, good ear set and has she had her hip scored?? 
You really must think is she a  good specimen of the breed. 
Lots to consider before you can say in your heart she has something to give to the breed..

My bitch is 15 half inches in height has got the prefect ear setting for shetland sheepdog  never had to train her ears they have natural  setting . She has wonderful coat   she looks like a small rough collie.
Although She is  to big for showing she is  admired where ever  i take she also has  lovely temperement . Her hips will be tested when reaches a year old .

I would get her hip scored and DNA CEA tested before saying 100% yes or no.
Take her to your local Shetland sheepdog club and get her looked at by a judge who can tell you if she has any other faults (for example, mismarked or missing teeth) that way once she has been hip scored and DNA CEA tested you can firmly decide what stud dog you want to use to suit her and help her faults.

My bitch is over sized and we had her looked at for other faults. We had her eye exam done which was clear for CEA and PRA then we had her hip scored she came back way below average and then we had her DNA CEA tested which came back as a carrier. So we knew we had to only put her to a CEA DNA tested clear male. We found a beautiful stud dog who is on the small side and has lighter ears he is also DNA CEA clear, hip scored way below average and eye exam clear.

I also dont believe in breeding until 2. My bitch has a season every 5 and a half months. So on their 4th.

I don't have shelties but in my breed size is important. Please do not think you will get mid size puppies from breeding her to a small dog, you will get puppies dads size & puppies mums size. It is really important to know the size of all dogs in both your bitches and the potential stud dogs pedigrees, and mate her to an ideal size dog from a line producing ideal size.

Thank you for great advise . I  have just resently sent in my forms  to join the shetland sheepdog club although i will still contacted them to ask if can  i get some to take a look at her for me .

I have had her eyes gentically tested by specilist from Edinburgh and she is uffected  by CEA and PRA  however her father who showdog is affected CEA (i only found this out when we got her papers from Kennel club )  and it was explained  at time of her testing  that because her father is CEA affected   she is still a carrier and that  i should only breed her with studdog who is gentical clear .

I did wonder if i should wait till next year before breeding her as i had though  14month at the time of mating was bit young that why was asking what breeder though . Thank you again for advice.

thank you all for your replies .

I have had her eyes gentically tested by specilist from Edinburgh and she is uffected  by CEA and PRA

No, that is her eye exam.

A genetic DNA test for CEA is the only way to find out if she is a carrier or recessive affected or clear this can only be done by a company called Optigen which means sending blood off to the USA.

Hope thats' helpful :)

I have also sent you a message.

hi bluemerlemum i posted  a reply to  the message  you sent me .thank you

Personally it sounds as if you need to do a bit more homework but you are going in the right direction, you need to know the dogs in her pedigree in and out see them in person if you can and see any offspring or close relations, that way choosing the right stud will be easier. Get all health tests done and get yourself along to a sheltie breed club, that way you can see if she is good enough.

At the moment I would say hold off for now get more information, and as another poster has said two wrongs don't make a right so if you bred her to a small boy it wont solve the size issue the stud dogs needs to be a really good example of the breed there are plenty out there to choose from.

Thank you again every one for your reply . I am going hold of breeding my little girl till i done more research and all testing has been done . Tyriona i agree with what say abt her pedigree problem there is i got her from Wales and i live in Scotland and her pedigree family come from England but good news is her family are a very well known through out the sheltie breed and grandfather was very very well known stud dog and i can get back to 1918 online with her pedigree . As for going to sheltie club i will .thanks again. 

I agree, you have a better choice of dogs as your bitch is a sable (if I am correct) so you can use her to other sables and tri's.
There are currently only 6 DNA CEA clear tri stud dogs in the UK to date (that have been tested). I only had a choice between 4 because 2 were to closely related to my bitch. The one I decided to go with is perfect, has won loads in the ring and is fantastic example of the breed.

So I would as I said hang fire and get her hip and DNA CEA test done. And go from there.

maggie55

What sort of breeder did you get her from and is she endorsed?  A good breeder ought to be the best placed to give information to help you, particularly if they impose conditions to lift the endorsement.

When considering raising a litter; in addition to asking yourself questions about whether you can, do remember to ask yourself whether you should - ie what are hoping to get from the mating?

Why on earth would you want to breed from her at her second season when you are saying she will only be 14 months? How are you able to predict when her second season will be anyway? Let her enjoy her own puppyhood before expecting her to be a mother. 2 is plenty young enough, preferably nearer 3 in a breed with such a good longevity.

Ok so you have a clear eye (unaffected for CEA) bitch who will be a carrier as her sire is affected - so unless you want her DNA status to be on future puppies certificates then you don't need to get her tested - it would just confirm that she's a carrier unless you have any reason to doubt the eye test which would depend on what age, if it was done as a young pup then no problem - but if it was done as an adult then her eyes will have 'gone normal' as you can't tell - visually - whether a dog has it or not once the eye has matured.  Presumably her dam wasn't affected or it would have come up, but she may have been a carrier.

There are a few DNA tested clear dogs about - and likely to be more in the future although many sheltie people aren't keen on testing.

Briefly on size you can have normal size shelties from a small or large bitch/dog, no use looking at pedigrees as size is a big issue here

Ok so you have a clear eye (unaffected for CEA) bitch who will be a carrier as her sire is affected

The op has given me the sire and dam's names and the I checked the kennel club database and for some reason he's not coming up. Though his name is spelt correctly. So not 100% sure on that one.

Please excuse me but i do not understand your last sentence did you mean that breeder will allow me to breed my bitch to the pedigree dog ? 

Hi Bluemerlemum who name is not coming up on kennel cub database .

It would be helpful as well to contact either her breeder, or if that's not possible, the breeders of her ancestors, as they will be able to guide you towards a choice of mate.

Just out of interest, why are you breeding your bitch? Is it so you can hopefully produce a puppy to show, or are you looking at doing agility or one of the other working discplines? This may also help determine your choice of sire.
Just as an aside, have people shown an interest in having a puppy from your bitch? Shelties are popular but as with all breeds at the moment, there are fewer people wanting to buy puppies and those that do tend to turn towards the more well known breeders initially. If you make contact with other breeders in your area, they might be able to pass your name on to potential purchasers when you have puppies as well as assisting with any queries you might have.
There are regional breed clubs for shelties as well. The Scottish club would I'm sure be welcoming and helpful to you.

Hi Bluemerlemum who name is not coming up on kennel cub database .

Your girl's sire.....unless I typed it in wrong but it says its right. Are you having the same problem?

Hi bluemerlemum i  will check her papers again and send you message if you give me a moment

Hi bluemerlemum i  will check her papers again and send you message if you give me a moment

Sure it could be the results are not on the database. :)

The database isn't 100% accurate and sometimes denies dogs who are KC registered and have had tests.

The database isn't 100% accurate and sometimes denies dogs who are KC registered and have had tests

The OP is checking her dogs KC papers for results to see if the sire was done before she got her. The breeders site does not state any eye exam results either.

However Dam is Clear by exam.

yes but do we know when the dog was eye tested? Of course if the sire IS affected then her dog WILL be a carrier (and if was an adult when the visual eye test was carried out then may be affected), I thought it was on her pup's pedigree papers about the sire?

I thought it was on her pup's pedigree papers about the sire?

Still waiting on a reply from her on that one.

I sent you this info taken from bitch papers to your e-mail address.

I sent you this info taken from bitch papers to your e-mail address.

Got it. Thank you.

Yes the sire is affected.

PennyGC

The sire eye test date was on my pup papers and my pup is only 9mth old now  and had her eye exam done in January

Maggie if your pup is 9 months and you had an eye test done two months ago then you can't possibly say that she's clear unfortunately.  Pups at about 6-10 weeks can be eye checked and it's then that the CEA patches can be seen, once the eye matures you can't see the CEA as the colouring changes, so the only way you know her eye status is DNA test, but as long as you use a DNA dog then the pups will be at worse carriers.  Penny

I can't see why you are thinking about breeding from a bitch who wasn't tested for CEA at 6 weeks which is what any reputable breeder would have done, and has an affected sire........  She hasn't proved her quality in the show ring and is oversized in a breed where oversize is a problem.  Many pet bred Shelties look like small Rough Collies.  My correctly sized Rough Collie bitches are frequently mistaken for Shelties because that's what pet owners are used them looking like. :(

What do you think that she could possibly add to the Sheltie gene pool?

What do you think that she could possibly add to the Sheltie gene pool?

I agree with what you have posted, I found myself asking that question when deciding to breed my bitch who is oversized. What we decided was to speak to other people in the sheltie world and get their take on it tell us her flaws and if they felt she was offering something good to the breed. After many months and being told that if she was put to the right male she could well produce some fantastic pups we decided to go on with the health tests knowing that if she scored to high on hips or her health tests were not great we would not breed her.

She came back a carrier which was a blessing in disguise as we decided not to risk the dogs that people only "believed" to be clear and only look at the ones tested clear by DNA because she's a blue we had only 5 dogs. 1 was to closely related and 1 was not yet hip scored as he was only a pup. So we looked into the final 3 and picked one that in my opinion IS the best choice for our bitch and I cant wait to see what they produce. I have put the OP in touch with the people who helped me so hopefully as her dog matures she can be guided into either breeding or not breeding.

Thing is with shelties is that there's a lot of CEA about and people are more 'relaxed' about it because of this so there isn't a big issue around it.  More and more people are testing fortunately so it will be resolved, but slowly because there's a small gene pool of clear dogs.  As for size, you can get such a variety in a litter from tiny to giant with everything inbetween.  This goes back to the introduction of rough collies in the mix and it's not resolved yet.  I bought a pup who grew to 18" yet his sire is a Crufts bob dog.  Apparently you can put two very small dogs together and get correct size pups so size is a lottery and dogs shouldn't be discounted due to size necessarily. My Molly is genetically clear for CEA so I can have my choice of sire, although I'd rather a DNA clear dog this may not be possible, particularly as I'm hoping to eventually breed black and white shelties and there are so few around.

I disagree with most of what you say....
There is much less CEA in Shelties than there are in Roughs.  As you say you have a genetically clear Sheltie.  I know of no British bred genetically clear Rough.  Shelties have a good sized gene pool - there is no need to use mediocre stock that is affected.  A superb dog or bitch, then perhaps.  But not an unshown, oversized bitch that wasn't tested for CEA at 6 weeeks.  There is plenty of proven quality stock around.

And the reason for the struggle with size is people continuing to put over/undersized dogs into the gene pool.  If, instead of trying to balance a large bitch with a small dog, the correct sized dogs were used, then a more uniform size will be produced.  Just using a Crufts BOB dog will not correct all the anomalies behind both dog and bitch pedigrees that go back for generations........

I know of plenty of Sheltie breeders who have managed to maintain size within their own lines but are struggling when they go out to bring in new blood.  These are mainly older, experienced breeders but the newbies coming in don't seem to have grasped the basic concepts of breeding genetics.

You are lucky to have a genetically clear bitch but you are planning to not put health first and use possibly not a genetically clear dog for the sake of colour????

I agree that rough collies are in a dire situation regarding CEA.
Don't think your other comments are worthy of reply really... except I will say that most breeders continue to have trouble with size whatever they may say!

Don't think your other comments are worthy of reply really

I do think that the suggestion that to get a good level size within a breed to bred always with one of the pair of correct size is the best way to go - breeding too small to too large will only achieve a mix. Once things stabilise you can move to only mate dogs who are the correct size.

Not disputing this but it's very complicated with shelties - two of the correct size can produce a whole range of sizes from tiny to giant.  Ones outside the accepted show range can and do produce 'correct' size offspring.  I don't know of a breeder who can say that they haven't had pups outside the accepted show range - it can and does happen in the 'best' of lines.  It's one of the things to consider when breeding. 

As for CEA not sure what health 'risks' there are in putting a DNA tested clear bitch to a sire who may be a carrier - all pups will be either clear or carrier, I just test and make future breeding plans depending on the outcome.  Most people will include 'colour' as one of their criteria, as they will include a range of health issues including CEA.  With shelties you have to consider colour, although tri is the 'easiest' colour as you can stay tri, or go to another colour - merle, sable or black and white.

I believe all shelties should be DNA CEA tested. However many breeders (mainly the older ones) do not even hip score. I remember talking to a good friend of mine who told me about a sheltie with a hip score of 23 who was bred.

I would only ever use a dog that I knew the DNA CEA for...The stud I wanted to use was a carrier so once her results came back I went onto my current stud who I think is perfect for her.

Hopefully as time goes on more people will test their dogs.

> two of the correct size can produce a whole range of sizes from tiny to giant.  Ones outside the accepted show range can and do produce 'correct' size offspring

Surely that's because people are breeding from the wrong size, therefore the pups could take after a grandparent that was oversize/undersize. If people only bred from correctly sized dogs, then in a few generations you will have a much more uniform size.

edited to say, I only read the last few posts, reading up I see that Westcoast and Nova have already made this point well :-)

Not disputing this but it's very complicated with shelties - two of the correct size can produce a whole range of sizes from tiny to giant.  Ones outside the accepted show range can and do produce 'correct' size offspring.

I agree with this. My bitch's dad is a champion and her mum won her JW, they mated once before and had all normal sized dogs 1 went on to be a huge winner I believe she gained her Ch title last year and in the litter my bitch came from 2 were oversized and 2 were normal. Her dad is 14 and a half inches and her mum is 14 inches.

I have taken on broard your comments  However firstly  i  am not sure how oversized  my bitch really is i am going to ask the nurse at my vet to check her size  for me .Secondly i didn't have my bitch at 6 weeks old and wouldn't take a six week old puppy away from its mother anyway, , my only fault is i didn't do my homework before purchasing  my bitch i took my bitches breeder at face value much  to my disappiontment  but we live and learn no matter what age any of us  are , Lastly i will have my bitch DNA tested and will also contact the Sheltie club where i live and ask if someone would please take a look at my girl and for them to tell  her faults if any ,  then once all this is done ,i will make a more infromed  decision as to weather t breed her or not .

Can also  say that the person i   purchased my bitch from is total waste of space and he  should  banned from keeping animals i  have e-mailed and tried to contact a dozen  times and  he .has never had manner to get back in touch with me mind you  i am not suprised .

Also maybe if breeder where made to have DNA testing done on there dogs  new onwer like me would have heart ache of trying to find out what gentic problem thier dogs may or maynot have .

Maggie - just measure her with a tapemeasure... as for the 6 weeks, it's really down to the breeder to have eyes tested at 6 weeks old, not the purchaser.  Ideally your pup would have had an eye test at 6-10 weeks by an eye specialist, however, it's not your fault.  Yes ok have her DNA tested so you know where you are, but really if the sire is affected then your pup must be either a carrier or affected so you'd be in effect wasting your money.  Accept that you're looking, if you wish to breed, for a DNA tested clear dog and go from there.  Then you can have the pup you keep tested.

Penny thanks for your reply i tryed measuring her with tape but i keep coming up with diffrent sizes as she will not stay still long enough for me to get it done and my husand cannot hold her as he is to ill to do so ,so best i get someone more up on this than me to do .
As for her being a carrier of the CEA gene i  all ready knew   as said to you we looked at the gentics of breeding from a dog with CEA and  and bitch who was unfected and that puppies would be cariers   as soon as found out  from her papers .bt her sire , and agian the specialist who examned her said this to .

I agree with there is no two ways abt  it if i decide to breed i would be looking for DNA tested  stud dog anyway . but i want someone from sheltie club to take a look at her and tell in there opinion on her . I believe that getting her DNA tested would be right  to do as you have already said CEA cannot be  proved anyother way this way now and i am  really i concerned that a couple years down the line we take her to get eyes examned and they tell us she's affected i would rather know now . If she is affected there  is no way i would breed her no matter what . On saying this ifferent if she is carrier .

Maggie,
The breeder you got your bitch from is classed as a respected breeder. So I am surprised that you have not had a reply from them.
You are doing the right thing, please keep us informed of her hight and test and score results. :)

Sorry bluemerlemum i didn't getmy  pup from the breeder you  are thinking of .She came from a breeder in Wales who purchased her dam i take it from the breeder you know ,but on saying this her sire belong to them . i hope you understand what saying ,if not e-mail please.

Sorry bluemerlemum i didn't getmy  pup from the breeder you  are thinking of .She came from a breeder in Wales who purchased her dam i take it from the breeder you know ,but on saying this her sire belong to them . i hope you understand what saying ,if not e-mail please.

Ahh so they sold the bitch and you bought your girl off the person the breeder sold the bitch to?
Apart from the lack of eye test at 6 weeks old do you have any other complaints about the breeder you got your girl from? If so email me.

:)

Surely that's because people are breeding from the wrong size, therefore the pups could take after a grandparent that was oversize/undersize. If people only bred from correctly sized dogs, then in a few generations you will have a much more uniform size.
Exactly right chaumsong. :)

my only fault is i didn't do my homework before purchasing  my bitch i took my bitches breeder at face value much  to my disappiontment  but we live and learn no matter what age any of us  are ,

Can also  say that the person i   purchased my bitch from is total waste of space

Exactly the reason why this bitch shouldn't be included in a breeding program.  If you really want to learn and contribute something useful to the breed, then keep this bitch as a pet and take time to learn more before buying another bitch of better quality to breed on from. :)
It would be a good idea to start showing her and she will teach you a lot and also help you make knowledgable contacts in the breed who could help to steer your dream in the right direction. :)

Surely that's because people are breeding from the wrong size, therefore the pups could take after a grandparent that was oversize/undersize. If people only bred from correctly sized dogs, then in a few generations you will have a much more uniform size.
Exactly right chaumsong. :-)

Er no, because shelties are as yet a 'newish' breed and haven't 'settled' down in the heights as yet - so there's time to go before this happens.  Most people breed from the correct sized dogs, but still you get small and large as well as 'correct' in a litter, so no use saying that it will.  Adding rough collie to the mixture didn't help the size although no one is quite sure where the tiny ones come from.  It will take a while as yet as I say. 

Er no, because shelties are as yet a 'newish' breed and haven't 'settled' down in the heights as yet - so there's time to go before this happens.  Most people breed from the correct sized dogs, but still you get small and large as well as 'correct' in a litter, so no use saying that it will.  Adding rough collie to the mixture didn't help the size although no one is quite sure where the tiny ones come from.  It will take a while as yet as I say.

I agree my bitch for example has come from a long line of standard sized dogs (14/14 and a half inches) yet herself is big.
I cant remember her name now, but someone bred from an agility bitch who was 16 inches and mis-marked yet she had a champion in that litter and 2 normal sized dogs who did well in the ring.

Sadly its a pick and mix. You do not know what you are going to get. A very good friend of mine bred her show bitch (14 inches) to a champion stud dog (14 and a half) the whole litter was over sized one as tall as 18 inches. Yet the same bitch was mated to another stud dog and produced perfect sized dogs, the same stud dog that produced the oversized litter has been bred from many times and rarely produced oversized pups. Its hard to tell what you will get.