I'm getting quite a few enquiries from families which, although in most ways seem to be ideal, have young children.

I was wondering how other breeders *of large, energetic and active working dogs* deal with enquiries from families with children?

I mean:  Is 1 child ok?  Do you draw the line at 3 kids under the age of 10?  4 under the age of 8?  If the kids are all school-age and mum is home during the day, would that be ok?  etc etc - do you have a rough 'rule' or guide for what you definitely would and definitely wouldn't consider acceptable?

For eg, I have a rough rule that I wouldn't home a pup to a family with another dog under the age of 18 months (roughly).  Two adolescent hooligans is just too much, especially with my breed. 

But I seem to be having more trouble formulating a rough rule for kids.  I know it depends on the family, but I'm talking about an average enquiry email where they don't convey that they would take extraordinary measures to manage the situation and just want a 'family pet'. 

Thanks.

I have 4 kids all under 10 yrs and have experience of large working breeds.
My advice is don't home with really young kids.  I know from experience that it can be a recipy for disaster.  I had a puppy and a baby which was fine.  Only puppy got extremely large FAST and soon baby soon learnt to pull herself up with the dogs fur.  Both were OK with this but as soon as she would get up, the dog would move off and baby would crash to the floor.  Also, a large dog doesn't understand the difference between running at the door wether the baby is in the way or not.  Our baby soon got very scared of the dog as everytime it was about, she got hurt(or so it seemed to her).  Also, exercise is also an issue to consider.  I am lucky as my kids love the outdoors but they are not the 'norm'.  Also, once baby is walking enough that they don't want to get into the buggy any longer, the walks need to get a lot shorter.  TBH, I would say over 5's only and then decide by the family.
But then some adults are idiots too.  And then you've got teenagers to worry about as they love to tussle with the dogs. ....
If you look hard enough, I think you find faults with everyone.

As the owner of 2 medium and 1 large exciteable energetic breeds and also mother of a 4 yr old child (autistic so a lot younger in behaviour), I would say it comes down to the family. On paper I look far from the ideal home for my breeds, but in reality that is not the case. My dogs have a very fulfilled life as part of the family and are very happy dogs.

I think you should arrange to meet all of the family members (though please do bare in mind that some children are not perfect in their behaviours- especially when visiting...my son had a tantrum the whole time i visited my breeder, but she was very understanding- luckily!) You should see what the parents are like, how they handle the visit with their children, what they naturally see as acceptable or not etc and how they reprimand their children as this can give a huge insight in to how they will deal with a puppy in their life as a family.

Personally, I don't think it matters what breed the same personal rulings should apply, as every breed can hurt a child varying from those with high prey drives who may tackle, grab the neck and pin down a screaming child to a terrier who may not give as lengthy warnings and go in for a nip first, they all have the potential to hurt, usually because they are misunderstood by parent and child, some worse than others and all children who have no understanding of dogs and reading body language or how puppies play can hurt a pup of any shape or size, granted the more energetic can be harder to deal with for parents with small children.

Trouble is you can't tell via phone or e-mail, I have a blanket rule of 7 years, anyone under that just does not generally get a look in unless they try very hard to convince me and they have got through the rest of my vetting criteria, happened only once (but it did happen!!) :-D :-D A couple with a four year old girl in the end I agreed to let them meet my girl prior mating and this little girl impressed me so much she was an 80 year old woman in a 4 year olds body, she was kind and gentle with my girl and asked ME questions and told me about dogs and how to look after them and we talked about how to treat them she was wonderful.

They got one of my pups and the little girl was very involved in training and everything, I knew immediately I hadn't made a mistake.

I would have the blanket rule and if anyone tries to twist your arm arrange to meet them and get to know them, you have to look at how the children behave and how the parents interact and supervise their children, don't decide via phone call or e-mail, you can't. :-)

You have to think of your pup, in the wrong hands it's life could be a nightmare, you want your pup to have the attention so that it is brought up with one to one and grows into a well balanced dog, so on the whole I would still stick to no children under 7 for the pups sake.

I understand the problems you had with your large dog and young baby, but that is not the case for everyone. My eldest gsd was 5 months old when i had my son, they have grown up together and are inseperable most of the time, both having respect for one another.
My first working line collie came when my son was 2 and i also have an 11 month old working line collie now, Im not saying it has been the easiest but all my dogs are taught manners around my son and i am quite strict about this, they respect his space, none of them barge past him even if someone is at the door, ive never allowed my son to grab at them or do anything that could cause an accident.

I guess it could also depend on the breed, as some are very single minded and not so "trainable" as others. Maybe it would help if the OP mentioned the breed?

Hi - at this point, the pups aren't around yet (mating hasn't happened) but I am getting enquiries for our provisional list.  I invite everyone to meet us and the dogs, but so far no one on our provisional list - even those with ideal-sounding homes - have taken us up on that.  (Perhaps because some people live far away, not sure.)  I will be ramping up the interrogation a bit in coming weeks, with a questionnaire and phone calls - but I do want to be able to deter people who are unsuitable before they can even go on our provisional list.  Anyone I'm not really sure about, will definitely have to come and meet us in person.

qwerty - Edited to say that I accept that there are exceptions, but for the sake of the pups I need to have a *rough* rule, a guideline.. And as Carrington says, if they then try to persuade me I can check them out further.  It is just that I'm not sure what this rough rule should be, but that is useful as I'm getting some ideas now!

I'd prefer not to mention the breed, but it is a highly active large gundog.

As a owner of a large breed gundog and also as a parent of two children under the age of 7 I would sugesst you meet all the family on several occasions before you rule out families with young children. Our youngest was only 19 months when we got our puppy and the eldest was 6,and i am lucky enough not to work. My children have been brought up with dogs and know how to behave around them and treat them. We visited our breeder several times always with the children and got so many lovely comments on how well behaved our children are and were around the adult dogs and pups that they felt we could offer a lovely family home. However we know the breeder also wouldn't allow a couple of other families with older children to have a pup as the children were not suitable to have a pup. So I guess it just depends on the family. We have never had any moments where we felt we made a mistake, our children have always treated our dog with love and respect and our dog gives them so much love and happiness and follows commands from them as well, never even jumping up or mouthing them when  she was a pup. I hope this gives you a view as an owner who has the most perfect family dog and maybe stops you ruling out that type of home without even meeting families. Good luck with it all.

I don't think you can judge anyone without first meeting them... I had 2 babies and 5 dogs... I have 'vetted' families with one child and shivered at the thought of them having any kind of animal, yet I have a lovely family with 4 children between the ages of 3 and 11 waiting on a pup from my present litter.. sometimes when the children are 'brattish', you need to look to the parents attitude also... Its not just the children

Also, when my owners come to visit, and they suggest they leave the child/children at home, that is a concern.

On the whole, I find that most families with young children are perfectly suitable for having a dog as a companion...

I had an e-mail from one of those families this morning.  I sent a photo of mum and pups to them, and they have printed it off, and one of the children has taken the photo to school for a 'show and tell'... it can be very educational for them too... :-)

I was coming up for 10yrs old and the youngest of my 3 brothers was almost 1yr old when we got our first cocker at the beginning of the summer holidays, we were not going away that year, he settled in well and lived to a ripe old age of 14yrs, my parents had taught us he needed to sleep and that there would be plenty of time to play with him, my Mum didn't work so when we went back to school the dog still had company.

I think the family as a whole needs to be assessed and see how the kids behave with adult dogs first to judge whether a pup of your breed would be safe.

In my breed it is thought under 5's can be a problem as the long body isn't compatible with a small person picking them up, the standard version is more robust and often recommended instead, they soon get too big to pick up.

6 years ago I homed a Malinois pup to a family with a 1 year old, a 4 year old and an 8 year old. Why? Because the mother was very experienced in dogs and dog training and her kids had never known life without dogs around them. Eleven years ago I chose a Malinois pup for MYSELF from a breeder whilst carrying around my 4 month old baby on one arm! (With two older kids at home.) It really does come down to individual circumstances.

Ok, so perhaps the 'rough rule' should be:  If you want to go on our provisional list and you have kids under 7 yo, then you must meet with us first. 

I totally agree with what everyone is saying regarding meeting the specific families, but when folk are scattered around the UK and the mating hasn't even happened yet, it is asking a lot for them to come down here and meet us with their families too.  So I do suspect that most people won't proceed further, having heard the above.  But for those who are committed and dedicated, they might.

Hi

I would definately say it depends on the children; you are going to need to meet them to decide. I have a 2 (nearly 3 year old) who is great around any animals - he was brought up with 2 cats and a dog in the house and was often socialised with other sorts of animals too. So my son knows how to treat an animal and knows not to pull fur or hurt them (although the youngest cat and him do have a game where she rolls in front of him and he picks her up puts her out the cat flap then she comes in and does it again and again but he is gentle with her). I know other older children who I wouldn't trust to be near any animal as they just dont seem to have the same understanding.

Love
Kath x

Hi, yes I agree, of course you have to put your future pups first, im glad you are not set in stone not to house with younger children :)

Mine is a medium size breed, but I take each family on their own merit, but then I had my Belgian shepherd pup when I had a toddler and had my first Elkhound pup when I had a 14 months toddler and a 4 year old pre-schooler.

By the time I had the Elkhound I was a single parent too.  It really depends on the commitment and organisation/common sense of the owners.

I would say the breeds general temperament plays a part.  with the more sensitive Belgian I had to be very dog aware and read when she had been over-faced and needed time out.  With the Elkhounds, even though lively when young I found them much less reactive to the excitement children caused and they actually enjoyed being in the thick of things more, but then this may be more to do with the individuals.

My Elkhound is 10 days older than my youngest son, they will both be 13 in May.
My 2 daughters were 3 and 4 when we got his Aunty and I fell pregnant with my eldest son straight after we got her! So with all the vetting in the world situations can change very quickly with new owners.

I always think it's better for people to visit when you haven't got puppies, as they can be very distracting. In my breed, as we are numerically small, I'm quite happy to have people visit me if I'm nearer to them than my friends and vice versa. I also treat each family on their individual merit and will always be grateful to my Elkhound's breeder that she trusted us with her precious puppies.

> I was wondering how other breeders *of large, energetic and active working dogs* deal with enquiries from families with children?

I don't have a blanket rule. After an initial weed out by email then phone, I invite the whole family to visit. Then I can see how the children are around the dogs, and how the parents interact with their children, then we make a decision. Sometimes if I've thought they were unsuitable, I've sent them away "to have a think about it". I tell them the new dog will have to suit the whole family and outline the potential drawbacks.

I have sold pups to two families with disabled children, both in wheelchairs. Those families were amongst the most capable people I've placed pups with and the dogs have had wonderful lives with them. The most unsuitable family I saw who had got through my screening process turned out to include a pair of frail elderly people who were very afraid of big dogs! We all decided it wouldn't work.

So I go more by what the family is like rather than how old their children are.

Accepting that all parents and children are different, I had a general rule of no children under 5 years old for 2 reasons.  Firstly that I wanted my puppy to have undivided attention for certainly part of the day because I believe what you put into the first year you live with for the next 14 - a bit like children! :)  With the children at school, the Mother has time to spend alone with the puppy and the pup has time to sleep undisturbed.  Secondly, children over 5 years old have a better chance of understanding the needs of a puppy/dog in the family. 
For me it's also important to see how the parents respond to their childrens' behaviour.  I expect them to be aware of what they are doing at all times.  Some are so interested in the puppies that they are unaware of what their children are doing!
Having said that, I broke my own rule 3 times in 25 years because during the first conversation the Mother was obviously aware of the potential problems, had thought things through and had solutions that would make the situation work. :) 

Just like my other general rule about no flats unless they are ground floor with their own secure garden.  I had a call from a man who lived in a second floor flat in London with a park opposite.  He'd waited until his children were older, sent me photos of the area and the flat including the huge hall with parquet flooring that he was prepared to cover a section by the window with plastic tarpaulling and had costed 6' x 12' turf which he was prepared to change every week until the pup was house trained and he did just that.  The pup was house trained in 3 months and lived a very happy life with the family for 12 years.

So I think that we all need to establish general guide lines that we're happy with but then listen to what people say and are prepared to do to make their dream of owning a dog work.

Thanks everyone, but I'm just wondering - those of you who insist on meeting the family first and seeing how they are around the pups etc, what do you do when these people live, say, at the other end of the UK?  Do you still insist on them making the trip to meet you or they don't get a pup?

Our first dog came from a breeder who raised them in the house around her kids and family, pups were used to household noises, had been wormed properly - all in all, a good breeder - and she at no point suggested we come and see them.  We spoke to her on the phone a few times.  She would have been a good 5 hrs drive from us.  We wanted a pup so much that we would have made the trip for sure, but as she never mentioned it, and as we didn't know what was the 'done thing', we didn't, it just never happened.

Another dog of ours came from a breeder who raised them outside, in a kennel environment, and who was in many ways not a great breeder - yet he suggested we meet him first, and we travelled from the south east UK to Ireland, to meet him, whilst the bitch was pregnant.

> what do you do when these people live, say, at the other end of the UK?  Do you still insist on them making the trip

yes, I do... I live in Scotland and I went to visit my breeder (Raymond the Flatthing) who lives 40miles North of London  a 15hour round trip, 3 weeks later I did the same trip to collect him... I expect my puppy owners to do the same!

> Thanks everyone, but I'm just wondering - those of you who insist on meeting the family first and seeing how they are around the pups etc, what do you do when these people live, say, at the other end of the UK?  Do you still insist on them making the trip to meet you or they don't get a pup?
>
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One of my owners who is coming tomorrow lives in Scotland (I'm Bristol) and she flew down to see the pups at 13 days old, told her not to bother until they were 4 weeks because of the distance, but she mainly wanted to meet the rest of the canine family that her puppy came from, which is quite right, as all pups are lovely, it is what they are likely to grow up to be that is important.

So if they had visited before then there would be no need for them to visit the pups until pick-up day.

hi I got my pup last may my daughter was 2yrs and my son was 3yrs(he turned 4 in june). The breeder was in edingburgh he didn't meet my kids in the beginning as I didn't  drive but I sent photos of them the house and anything else he needed we talked on the phone loads of times and explained that I would bring my daughter if he liked but my son has autism so the train journey and being in new place he would not of coped in that situation which he understood. I told him what my intentions were (teaching pup hand signals so my son could communicate with pup as well) now my son doesn't do sign as he has started talking now and my pup does everything he ask her to. The breeder did meet my children when he was in our area and came with his boy and it was a lovely day and every one was happy.

I am lucky with them trusting me with there puppy but best of all we are good friends and are always in contact by phone or email and hopefully will see them this summer when they come down to London.

I'm glad they turned me down because of young children

Nessa

what do you do when these people live, say, at the other end of the UK?  Do you still insist on them making the trip to meet you
Yes, I would want to see the whole family once before they get onto my puppy list.  That can either be long before the bitch is mated or once the pups are here.
On the rare occassion that I've had a puppy left unbooked at homing time, then I invite the whole family to come and visit without suggesting that the pup is theirs and explain that they may be going home without a puppy but that it will be good experience for them anyway to see a home full of their chosen breed of dog.  If they are not committed enough to make a long journey before then they are not committed enough to do whatever is necessary for the puppy once they have it. :)

If they are not prepared to travel to see the pup then how are they going to get the pup home? Prospective owners have to show they are prepared to put themselves out for the right puppy.

Pictures etc. are fine but how can you be sure it is their property you are seeing?

Thanks, this is useful.

Some of you are saying that you would insist they come and meet the pups etc - but I'm not yet at that stage where I have pups for people to see.  In fact, the mating might not even work or the bitch might not get pregnant or any number of things might yet go wrong.  So it does feel like I'm asking a lot for them to come and visit at this stage.  (Although I have of course offered and invited.)

But at the same time, I do want to compile a list of people who are provisionally interested and I don't want to keep people on that list if they are really unsuitable - for their sake as well as mine - I'd rather put them off the breed/a puppy now, when it's easier to do so.

So this is my dilemma...

I think it all depends on your breed. I find with my Vallhunds that most people who contact me about puppies have done all their research on the internet and have never actually met one "in the flesh" so most appreciate the chance to visit and meet mine. I'm also lucky in that I have ages ranging from 1 year up to 10 years so it's nice for them to see the breed at different life stages.

I suppose it would depend on their knowledge/experience of the breed as to whether they needed to come visit before the pups are on the ground, it seems so many first time dog owners have seen a dog out and about or on TV and like the looks without really knowing what it is like to live with one or any non desirable traits that breed may have.

Not sure if I would keep a waiting list or not, depends how eager the folk were to get a pup from me.

I wouldn't let pups be viewed in the flesh till 6 weeks due to infection risk[make sure they haven't been to see other pups that day] but would be happy to share pics and videos, would also make it clear that I would be hopefully keeping at least one pup and which one may not be obvious for some weeks.

It horrifies me when I see pups having deposits placed on them by breeders at a few days old, how do they know what that pup is going to be like at 8 weeks old, do they risk losing the deposit.

we have 4 large breed dogs that are so full on untill about 3 lol but still could knock over a small child but i dont take age into account i ask if they know the breed and if they have owned this breed before not sure how lucky ive been but every pup weve bred has gone to new homes were they already have this breed or have lost this breed to old age and somtime sadly to health proplems this breed can suffer from when no health testing on parent has been done :(
xxxx

As the breed concerned is still on the import reg and relatively unusual, it is less likely people will have seen one.  (Although having said that, most of the people I've had enquiries from, have seen them at Discover Dogs or similar.  But this is not the same as coming on a walk with us, which is what I'd encourage them to do if they said they wanted to visit.)

I'm not saying that I want folk to pay deposits - I don't - nor to choose a pup.  We will allocate pups to people, so they won't actually get a choice anyway.  The purpose of the visit would be just to meet mum and ourselves and learn more about the breed and for us both to get to suss each other out better.  That's the sort of visit I mean is a lot to ask if people are coming from miles away, when there is so much which could go pear shaped between now and pup going home.

I prefer that people primarily meet the adults, and actually prefer to have people vetted when there isn't the distraction of a litter of cute pups.

Something that is common in our breed if the new owners are complete novices to the breed is to arrange for the people to visit a trusted person in ones breed that is closer.

I do this quite often for others.

I've offered to arrange for them to meet someone with the same breed who lives near to them, but so far no one has taken me up on that!  I'm not sure why, it does concern me; perhaps I should insist rather than just recommend that they meet with either me or someone with the breed who lives near them.

I don't breed, but personally speaking I would insist on people coming to meet me before getting a definite "yes". Perhaps tell people who are interested that once the pregnancy is confirmed (or pups born, so you know how many you have?) they would have to meet you prior to getting a pup? IMO, making two journeys (even if each one takes the best part of the day) isn't really much to ask, and if they don't have the time/commitment to visit before being offered a pup, do they really have the time/commitment to take on a dog?

But I don't breed, and that's just my opinion from my somewhat limited perspective lol

you are right! i always tell people to come and meet my dogs and i like to meet them before any pups are here.
xxxx

I don't breed either and at the moment am unable to have my ideal breed, but for when I can I have already picked out my breeder - one of the reasons I've chosen them is that they insist on meeting the whole family living in the home first (I have no children) and that they also insist first time owners of the breed join them on a walk with their adult pack as part of a full afternoon visit to vet the hopeful owners.  I don't know when that afternoon will be - its years away, but I'm already looking forward to travelling to the other side of the country to meet them and their dogs and join them on that walk.  I only want such a large, powerful, active breed from a breeder that insists on checking that the breed and any children (or other family members) won't hurt or antagonise each other, the only way to do that is insist they meet, either at your home or a friend in the breed.