http://dogstrustblog.blogspot.com/2008/09/dogs-trust-withdraws-from-all-kennel.html

Thanks. I'd forgotten they had withdrawn from Crufts. 

jocelyn ,i was one of those wheeling my dog around in his pet stroller(not pushchair),we use it as we only have the 2 charlies and dont want a big show trolley yet,we wanted to take him around dd and the trade stands rather than leave him alone on the benches,and not get stepped on.he did great pr for his breed (king charles)by loving the hundreds of strokes and cooing over him whilst going around.sorry we sickened you,but we couldnt care less,timo thoroughly enjoyed his day out and wagged his tail the whole time while being pushed around in his "pushchair" rather than frightened of being stepped on..

When you see the small breeds (as a giant breed owner) you do think it looks ridiculous. But after reading the reasoning behind it and not wanting your dog injured in a large crowd i can understand you doing it.

you know what,as a forty something tattooed skinhead,i felt ridiculous the first time we used it,especially as our previous showdog was a 80+kg dogue! but now i dont care, id rather timo be safe..and it is a black one,the least in yer face colour (the strollers come in lime green or pink,too!),tho my sister says we should "pimp" it up!

i saw a lot of giant dogs in crates at crufts too including newfs and giant schnauzers

Mine were trolleyed around as well although they are quite a tough small breed the thought of someone stepping on one of them and hurting them doesn't bear thinking about when it can be avoided - jocelyn believe me mine are all more than capabable of walking anywhere I want to go all day every day should it be asked of them.

I take my two in trolleys to and from the car, disabilities in me and my mum not my dogs are the reason why.  My dogs have been kicked, tutted at, moaned about when being walked around Crufts by people who really don't care about dogs, makes me wonder why they are there.

Oh and by the way not all dogs in DD's are showdogs.  They are people's happy, healthy pets, who enjoy life, enjoy people and can put up with people of all types petting them, talking to them etc. for a number of hours.

Just think not only do I show very rarely but also have a breed with tails curled over their backs who for the last 30 years of owning them have not shown any problems of interacting with other dogs.

Especially on the day that the given breed is being shown the discover Dogs participants are most likely to be purely pet dogs. 

Certainly in my breed that was the case, the lovely owner had shown her Male in the past as a youngster, but given ti up, then got a rescue bitch and the pair were great, loving all the attention and the Vikings that came to support them on the stand.

Also curly tailed non communicants.

i should add my two tibetan spaniel girls clearly cant communicate properly with the loads of dogs they meet on a daily basis in central london,without a grumble,despite the fact they are disadvantaged by having tails over their back too! *being sarcastic* and what a shame jocelyn felt she had to be dragged round  such a sickening place as crufts,too...

Good lord--who knew that dogs need a full straight tail to get their message across? I'd never have guessed. I have a legally docked gundog (yes, JH, save that carton of rotten eggs for me!) who I now realise is consigned to a life of uncommunicative misery thanks to the cruel actions of his breeder and irresponsible vet. So will you tell my dog no one can understand him, or shall I?

I have to agree.  We were stopped docking on the grounds that it was 'cruel' and prevented dogs from expressing themselves and communicating and now, those with curly tails can't communicate?????? Make your bl**dy mind up please!  BTW my four legally docked dogs have no problem communicating :-)

Tinas, what exactly do you perceive to be the problem with big dogs in crates?  I saw all sorts if breeds in crates and the dogs therein were invariably calmly looking round them or snoozing. I was standing next to a Newfie in a crate for the best part of an hour while i chatted to friends on neughbouring benches and he was sound asleep the whole time...wasn't even the slightest bit aware of my presence or anyone else's.

Bear in mind that many of those dogs sleep in a crate at home. It is a place they associate with being safe an comfortable. The only dog i heard kicking up any kind of fuss around the Newf benches was an uncrated dog who was most miffed that his owner had wandered off a few benches away and no one was paying him any attention.

I don't see where size comes into it at all as the crates are appropriate to the size of the dog. The difference between being on the bench and in a crate is minimal in terms of available space.

i think ill give up on this site

i dont have a problem with big dogs in crates! i was trying to agree that dogs at shows are ok in trollies, prams etc including big dogs not just small ones

Apologies, Tinas...I confused you with Jocelyn who made the comment about dogs in pushchairs.  You'd think I'd have learned by now not to skim read posts.

I think the RSPCA have completly missed the point that 'Happy, Healthy Dogs' was the theme of Crufts, in the same way that many big events have a theme each year. I certainly did not hear anyone insisting that every single dog present over the four days of the show was blooming with health and happiness as this letter implies, but I did see many, many aspects of the coverage where educational topics were covered. Things which would help in achieving 'happy, healthy dogs' including teeth cleaning, how to buy a puppy, training advice etc. In addition, given the tight timeframe in which the producers were working (to include as much of the show as possible  - thank you!) issues such as puppy farming, welfare concerns with standards and dangerous dogs were raised. I suppose the author of the letter was making a cup of tea when these were being shown!!
There were over 21,000 dogs present at Crufts so some of them perhaps were unhappy and not in the best of health, but the overwhelming vast vast majority there were fit, active and loved. I certainly see more unhealthy and miserable dogs on my 30 min journey to work!

IMO, the RSPCA were simply dismayed that Crufts 2011 proceeded with very little adverse coverage in the press and want to stir things and create trouble. I can see no other reason for this 'open letter'. 

I should certainly hope the dogs at Crufts were ALL in good health -and happy. Otherwise they should not have been there. The RSPCA letter implied "happy, healthy dogs" applied to ALL pedigree dogs when surely the KC were mainly referring to the dogs AT Crufts? After all there will be a LOT of unhealthy and unhappy pedigree dogs out there -that would never get near Crufts. Bred by back yard breeders and puppy farmers. The KC would not want to celebrate them. But all the show dogs in great condition, bred with the utmost care, are definitely worth celebrating!

So should I hope they all were, but given the numbers there, bound to be the odd one or two that were not perhaps as happy or healthy as they could have been.

You make a very good point as well that the coverage at Crufts referred to only those dogs present at the show, not the entire population of pedigree dogs. I think the RSPCA letter (and general attitude) is far more at fault in making sweeping and unjustified remarks than anything said or implied during the coverage of Crufts.

i was guilty of pulling my dogs into crufts and then out again the main reason was crowds trying to get out of hall 4 down the ramp to hall 5 took 15 mins with 2 people four vari kennels on a table trolly because people would not move started out friend pulling me pushing, ended me pulling friend pushing( she 5,4 tall im 6 foot.) people do notpush me out of the way would not dream of taking them arund crufts did with one the first year won a 24 can case of winalot and ended up with it under one arm and the dog under the other walking from hall 2

On the plus side, its seems that the PDE and coldwetnose blog spots are not getting the hits that they once were, or atleast not the comments so hopefully they will dissapear back under the rock as it would seem the GP have had their fill of her too, infact looking at alot of the comments most of them seem to be off this forum :-)

I'm donning my hard hat and preparing to make myself very unpopular, but I've just spent the last half hour reading the PDE blog, and I actually agree with quite a lot of it.

A parade of mutants may be a bit harsh, but the photos are pretty appalling. I think most non doggy members of the public would agree with 'mutant' title!

I thought posting the video and photos of the LUA dalmation was a good thing, bringing it to peoples attention.

Crufts day 1 - keeping it in the family... I agree and had already voiced concern over the Best in Group Boxers COI too.

There are some good news stories from Crufts too, although I think both clumbers looked fine - one just younger than the other.

I could go on but I suspect I have given you enough ammunition now :-)

I suppose what I'm trying to prove is just because JH says it, it doesn't make it untrue. There is a tendency here on CD now to treat JH as 'the devil', whereas I see her simply as someone who cares about dogs. I'm not saying she's always right, but then we all care about dogs and we all make mistakes - can we find some common ground?

Well I guess we will have to disagree as I find her sneaky and devious and only has her own importance at heart, half of what is on her blog is sensationalist and based on half truths and wrote like a tabloid column designed to shock. She only ever allows comments that support her to be published and when asked how much of her personal finances she donates she always ignores the question, I could go on but I think you already get my point :)

People were even pushing dogs around in pushchairs, it made me feel sick

I do not like to see dogs in strollers or being dragged around in a cage on a trolley. However, Crufts is mental. I will not leave my dogs (Goldens) on the benches by themselves while I go shopping around the stalls. Hence my dogs have to come with me. The disgust on some peoples faces when they see a dog coming towards them The comments of 'huff, another dogs coming' and the faces they pull because you are in their way. Some members of the public would happily walk on your dog than move. So I have to say that I would not want to walk a small breed around without them being protected from members of the public. You wouldn't think it was a dog show.

I will admit to nearly scoring a penalty with a Pug on GD day. I was walking along and the person concerned had the dog on a very long lead and didn't see the dog.

It was a genuine mistake and lucky I think the dog was ok but I can see why people would want to use trollies :-)

> when asked how much of her personal finances she donates she always ignores the question

gosh, I don't think I would answer that one - would you? Is it anyone else's business but your own?

> She only ever allows comments that support her to be published

Again I think this is reasonable, it's her blog. I have a work related blog and moderate comments, I post the ones I like :-)

> half of what is on her blog is sensationalist and based on half truths

so based on same fact then :-)

> and wrote like a tabloid column designed to shock.

I agree, but is this necessarily bad? If shocking people makes them sit up and take notice?

Obviously you sit on her side of the fence thats fine, but I'm of the sort that puts my money where my mouth iis after all actions speak louder than words.
Also when you berAte people for their work in dogs then yes what you offer to the dog world should be available for others too see.

something tells me the RSPCA should look a little closer into where most of its cases come from - puppy farmers - people breeding willy nilly any mongrel to any mongrel or people health testing and breeding pedigree's . . .

And as for only passing comments you like that's just plain wrong a debate is only a debate when both sides are able to participate not just the opinions that go with your side of the argument.

> And as for only passing comments you like that's just plain wrong a debate is only a debate when both sides are able to participate

I agree, but maybe her blog isn't supposed to be a debate - just a listing of her opinions? My own blog isn't a debate, therefore I don't publish all comments.

I'm certainly no fan of the RSPCA and this is the first time I've come across the name Jemima Harrison.  However, having watched most of the Crufts coverage I would question whether all the dogs actually looked happy. Yes, some probably did enjoy the experience but there were others who looked as if they were having a real struggle to do what was expected of them. Considering all the grooming and primping they have to endure before they even enter the ring (particularly the long coated breeds), it wouldn't be surprising if sheer tiredness got the better of them.   I gave up showing many years ago due to the time it took in the ring for the judge to go over each dog and how bored my dogs became with the whole process. 

It would apear the RSPCA were never going to be satisfied. This press release has appeared quietly in quite a few places:
http://www.rspca.org.uk/ImageLocator/LocateAsset?asset=document&assetId=1232724824530&mode=prd

also has anyone looked at their high profile 'Get PuppySmart' campaign?
http://www.rspca.org.uk/media/news/story/-/article/EM_GetPuppySmart

Crufts day 1 - keeping it in the family... I agree and had already voiced concern over the Best in Group Boxers COI too.

Not read it -what is his COI? I really fail to see why it would matter if a) the dog is healthy, b) has good (correct) temperament c) looks right, and d) when used for breeding, is outcrossed. My most inbred dog is also one of my healthiest ever, the most successful show one, and the one that has stayed young for the longest (so no prizes for guessing who, LOL), with few people believing her age. Her COI is 19.5 %. Her pups are 12.9 % (first litter) and 12.0 % (second litter). Grandpups 9.9% (first litter) and 0.2 % (!!) second litter -so that clearly shows how you can go down with a bit of work. However the looks and the temperament is ALSO changing too much so I fully intend for the next generation to be brought back into the original lines.

As with everything else, it's no point staring yourself blind at numbers, the ENTIRE picture has to be right.

I gave up showing many years ago due to the time it took in the ring for the judge to go over each dog and how bored my dogs became with the whole process. 

To be perfectly blunt -that is YOUR fault ,not the judge's. Bored dog in the ring (or outside it!) -do little training tricks in the corner to keep them entertained. It doesn't have to disturb anyone. Many in my breed do and it's always recommended at the ringcraft I go to.

The boxer was not bred 'by numbers' - as some concrete minds would have us think is the only way to breed dogs.
His sire lived to a ripe old age and was siring litters well into his teens.

Not long ago certain people were criticising the use of young stud dogs, this boxer's father was an old man when he was conceived.

> it wouldn't be surprising if sheer tiredness got the better of them.

You woudnt approve of working collies then, or gundogs or perhaps guidedogs for the blind?

This is sentimental anthropromorphism. Life is not all happy happy happy, not even for animals. Some have to work, some get bored, some lay on the sofa all day eating biscuits and getting fat.

> also has anyone looked at their high profile 'Get PuppySmart' campaign?
> http://www.rspca.org.uk/media/news/story/-/article/EM_GetPuppySmart

Yes I have and I posted it here. They asked the KC to help them put it together and then denied this. Surprised? I'm not.

I too saw many stressed dogs at Crufts. The worse I have to say was a whippet who was taking part in an agility display by the KCAI scheme.
The poor dog was clearly unhappy and frightened, the owner had only had him for I think he said two weeks. The spectators were told the dog had never done agility before, but I think he had. If not then there is no way he such of been put on an A frame, or dragged up as he was.

He kept trying to run out of the ring with everyone laughing it was horridable. To top it all there was a newpaper reporter takeing photographs. 

It would apear the RSPCA were never going to be satisfied. This press release has appeared quietly in quite a few places:
http://www.rspca.org.uk/ImageLocator/LocateAsset?asset=document&assetId=1232724824530&mode=prd

also has anyone looked at their high profile 'Get PuppySmart' campaign?
http://www.rspca.org.uk/media/news/story/-/article/EM_GetPuppySmart

Disgraceful :-(

I wonder whose bed these people are really in

I am actually shocked at that top link. it seems to want people to go for BYB and puppy farms???? INSANE, i just cant get my head around it.
I think they are getting their facts from the fact that a major percentage of rescues are poor staffies which they will say is "pure bred" so yes it will bump the figures up.

I am actually shocked at that top link. it seems to want people to go for BYB and puppy farms???? INSANE, i just cant get my head around it.

...and this is a classic example of the muddled thinking coming from both the RSPCA and Jemima H -they want puppy buyers to go to breeders who health test , issue contracts and place their pups carefully - and who is it who does all this ? - well it's over whelmingly the showing fraternity !  - - no wonder puppy buyers are confused how many breeders of designer cross breeds test ? how many issue contracts ? - how many are a interested in any kind of follow up support ?

- if a puppy buyer wanted to find a good breeder just WHERE would they recommend them to go ? the local puppy farm ?

here's a challenge  JH and the RSPCA - If I wanted a responsibly bred Groenendael puppy tell me who I should go to if NOT to show breeders ?

Yvonne

To be perfectly blunt -that is YOUR fault ,not the judge's.

Thanks for that, MarianneB, but I wasn't finding fault with the judges, I was just saying how long the whole process takes.  The dogs who always look the happiest to me are those doing things like agility, flyball etc not the ones being paraded around on their leads.  I know many will disagree but this is just how it appears to me, personally.

I disagree lol, we hardly ever have more than 6 in a class and it's so easy to occupy mine and incidentally I've tried agility and flyball with 4 of them and they hated it and really stressed the one of them out. All dogs are different and what one may enjoy another will hate, mine enjoy the show ring all bar one so she doesn't go (even though she's probably my best one) but no point taking a dog that doesn't enjoy it.

I think that show dogs, working dogs, dogs that actively get to 'do' something with their owners are happier than a lot of (if not most) pets. A lot of homes have dogs, but spend very little time on them, they're there in the same house but largely ignored. Of course that's probably not the case with anyone on this forum, we've all joined because we love dogs, but I do know several people who have a dog and rarely actually have anything to do with it because of work or family pressures :-(

I too saw many stressed dogs at Crufts. The worse I have to say was a whippet who was taking part in an agility display by the KCAI scheme.
The poor dog was clearly unhappy and frightened, the owner had only had him for I think he said two weeks. The spectators were told the dog had never done agility before, but I think he had. If not then there is no way he such of been put on an A frame, or dragged up as he was.

He kept trying to run out of the ring with everyone laughing it was horridable. To top it all there was a newpaper reporter takeing photographs. 

Was it possibly this one where a journalist forced the dog to do it to write a story?

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/house-and-home/pets/features/one-man-and-his-whippet-go-to-crufts-2239771.html

I think that show dogs, working dogs, dogs that actively get to 'do' something with their owners are happier than a lot of (if not most) pets. A lot of homes have dogs, but spend very little time on them, they're there in the same house but largely ignored.

Indeed! That is so true. Even going to a show (as oppose to obedience, agility etc where it is obvious a lot of training is needed) isn't just a case of putting collar and lead on and go -it takes so much preparation in training first. And as the saying goes -"A trained dog is a happy dog".

I think it is also well to be aware that the RSPCA are describing themselves as 'patrons' of the new Dog Advisory Council, as they are providing some of it's funding. The Kennel Club are not.

I am actually shocked at that top link. it seems to want people to go for BYB and puppy farms???? INSANE, i just cant get my head around it.
I think they are getting their facts from the fact that a major percentage of rescues are poor staffies which they will say is "pure bred" so yes it will bump the figures up.

INSANE....?? You're totally right...in fact you couldn't be more right :)

Yes....the good old RSPCA....who are powerless to step foot into the Big Commercial Dog-Breeding Businesses (see Pats post about change of use from agricultural to dog breeding running at the moment) seem to be encouraging people to buy their puppy from the very Big Commercial Dog-Breeding Businesses......that any one of us who has a heart....are trying to get closed down because of horrendous welfare issues :(

THE BIG COMMERCIAL DOG BREEDERS.....PUPPY FARMERS....WHO HAVE YOUR BREED...MY BREED....AND PROBABLY EVERY OTHER BREED running round in circles....right now as we debate it.....in tiny dark pig pens....unable to care for their puppies properly...barely enough to feed themselves let alone their little ones...frightened...not able to express any natural mothering instinct....or natural dog behaviour whatsoever. Think about that....right now as we are discussing and debating the fault...the blame...looking for someone who we can hang draw and quarter....hold them up....and declare yes....this is the person/world/organisation who has caused all of these problems.....  

Its a joke isn't it...?? Only it's not one bit funny... :(

i just cant get my head around it.

No....it takes some doing doesn't it....?? I tend to always ask myself....ok then....this is quite clearly totally bonkers....but.....who benefits from this Insanity...?? Who benefits from an endless supply in sick...weak...poorley puppies who may well grow up to be sick....weak...poorley....adults....??

Who Benefits....??

Who Benefits....??

the puppy farmers? they have to keep up their easy income somehow
how do they sleep nights? i expect they are the sort who used to pull wings off butterflies when growing up :0(

> how do they sleep nights? i expect they are the sort who used to pull wings off butterflies when growing up

Actually they often are the sort who have been used to eating their crop of animals ...so selling them may seem humane in their perverse thinking.

to snoring bear, I had a look at your link but I could'nt say as they is no photo.

Who Benefits....??

Well..  apart from the producer of these crops of pups.

Lets not forget that without that regular supply of dogs/cats/horses etc the RSPCA wouldn't have an income or a reason to exist :(

They are hardly likely to want to close down the major sources of their guaranteed income!