wow we have a local GSD in the line up for crufts  on sunday. whooppee !!!!!!!!!!!!

Absolutely STUNNING dog and well deserved.

Aussie should have got it...:-)....But I have one so might be a bit biased there...:-)  Well done everyone...GSD was a nice boy too...

He's a super dog - well deserved.  Well done Elmo!!

I am thrilled he won , fab boy , great example.

I rather fancied the Aussie too Freewayz! But the GSD looks good too - nice to see him shown in the English way, I agree with what Frank said about how a lot of them are gaited too fast, I remember when the Sieger came over and won BOB, the continental style of having the dog galloping off miles ahead of his handler looked so strange to me!

He was fantastic really deserved to win

Happy you have a local dog in...but.......not my cup of tea......I still prefer to see a less sloped rear end.
The Australian shepherd was my favourite of the 2.

Karen  :)

(please no telling me off, I am entitled to this view :) )

> (please no telling me off, I am entitled to this view :-) )

I won't tell you off!!   I have the same view.  :-)

Me too - but I've seen worse, and he does have the most handsome and imposing head!

I'm really glad someone else has commented about the sloping rear end. When watching the stream of the judging first time it was all I could notice about the GSD and was then shocked that he won. Having watched it back again, I can see that otherwise he's a beautiful dog and, with a working title, no doubt extremely fit and active, but awarding best in group is surely encouraging the slope.

Have seen worse as well but absolutely hated seeing the GSD win the group. Not my cup of tea (or drink of water as I hate tea!) but also I don't look forward to all the newspaper etc reports about Crufts being for deformed dogs.

Likewise, Marianne. His front half deserved the win, but ...

Am expecting to see photos of him shortly on JH's PDE blog, along wiht her opinions.  Anyone else see all the Neo pics she has posted, along with her opinions on the English Setter BoB and the Clumber?  At least she approved of hte Clumber :)

I thought he was a better specimen than his sire! When he was stacked waiting fo the judge's decision his outline looked impessive. On the move his topline sometimes appeared a bit exteme, but that could have been the camera angles.

I am no GSD expert, but he would be a dog I would be proud to own - but given a choice I would want the Vallhund who I thought was stunning.

I to am no GSD expert but have seen this dog up very close and don't remember him looking extreme in the fur. Don't ask me why that is - I don't have an answer :-)

what happened to german shepherds? when i grew up in the 60's they were normal straight backed dogs and when being stacked the back feet were pulled backwards by hand to make the back look sloping. i dont know why they want it to slope in reality. what does it benefit except making the hips wear away quicker? i have to say on pde it did shock me to see how weak the gsd's back legs looked and wobbly too

Not happy with the GSD either, thought the back movement was 'strange' surely no dog should move with it's hocks on the ground - well perhaps not quite but he did seem to lack true drive and I can't see how a dog can drive with the acute angles and very well let down hocks. Front on the other hand was great but then he is not balanced. IMO there were better deserving in the choice.

Did not think the judge seemed well - having more trouble than usual getting his breath.

I too have seen this dog in the flesh and he is certainly not over exagerated or sloping on the back end , no idea if it was the camera angle or not, he moves like a dream and is a very well balanced dog.

>Anyone else see all the Neo pics she has posted

To be honest, she has a point about the Neo Mastiffs.  The BoB wasn't as exaggerated at some but I saw quite a few yesterday that had (IMO) excessive wrinkling and loose skin.

He is a super boy.  Definetly not over exaggerated and moved effortlessly around the ring.  An excellent example of the breed and what my 13 year old son calls "A proper German Shepherd".  Huge congratulations to his breeders, owners and handler.  Will be keeping everything crossed for Sunday.

> please no telling me off, I am entitled to this view

I'm with you, lovely head and front, but that's as far as it goes for me and then of course as Nova says he's not balanced. like Marianne, I'm not looking forward to the inevitable tabloid stories of deformed show dogs winning at Crufts :-(

been bit disillusioned about the Gsd over the years. one breed 3 types English middle of the road and german. Hate roach backs or banana backs. With low slung hip placements and neurotic behaviors. Then we have another Type more substant...ial but overly heavy over angulated stright toplines long in body and short legs with no drive and tend to be nervous.Also we have 3 type of judges! english gemanic middle of the road. Why when there is one standard?
It was what this breed needed a correct good looking Gsd that moved soundly with power and handled well. To win the group at crufts this year. BIG WELL DONE Also is what nice to see a gsd Handled expertly also moved like a dream

http://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2008/8/News180408/gsd.htm

> (please no telling me off, I am entitled to this view :-) )

Same view here too. Just watched the group online and his back end is not good imo from what i'd expect on a GSD these days. The Sammie was lovely and so was the Aussie..
See my comments about the Newf being placed in the working group thread who was lame, all these experts and still allowed this placing?? Come on KC get a grip!!!!

Sue, spot on the Sammy was STUNNING, IMHO.

Jeff.

> Not happy with the GSD either, thought the back movement was 'strange' surely no dog should move with it's hocks on the ground - well perhaps not quite but he did seem to lack true drive and I can't see how a dog can drive with the acute angles and very well let down hocks. Front on the other hand was great but then he is not balanced. IMO there were better deserving in the choice.
>

Was very surprised and shocked that he won.

i saw the gsd at skc last year zena thorn andrews was judging them and then us, grew up in the 70,s with my mums obdience the start of agility and working trail gsd,s showed them myself from mid ninetys till mid 2000s and had the same type but did not like the breed types and so changed my breed but back to the point watched him and would have taken him home anyday

Have to say when they first showed him move it looked awful, but when he moved to win the group they showed him more and he looked a lot better.  Not my cup of tea, but hey sure my breed isnt other peoples.

Not referring especially to the GSD but I am not sure how much of a favour or otherwise some of the camera angles did to the movement of quite a few dogs on both days so far.  Certainly I don't think that the movement of some of the short list in the Gundog group could have been as seen on TV - one appeared very wide in front, another to be crossing it's front legs - having got to this stage of the show I am willing ot belive it was the cameraman and not the dogs at fault.

I too thought movement looked poor at times but one or two of the dogs in each Group looked a bit tired and there were a couple of stumbles and some slips.  When judging started at 8.30am in some breeds it's no wonder really and there isn't anywhere for the dogs to get properly rested - although some dogs can sleep through anything, even the judging!  A few just snoozed whilst waiting for their turn :)

Saying that though the Flatcoat owner and his dog looked as if they could have done another few rounds which, considering they left home at 1.30am on the morning of their judging, wasn't too shabby  :)  My favourite so far...

>To be honest, she has a point about the Neo Mastiffs.  The BoB wasn't as exaggerated at some but I saw quite a few yesterday that had (IMO) excessive wrinkling and loose skin

I thought Frank Kane was trying to make a point when he kept repeating that they should not have excessive skin - subtle - not!

My MIL declared the Neo looked a bit like a Rhino :)

Absolutely loved the GSD, and agree with sentiments re the Flatcoat, what a cracker!
Didn't see the Neapolitan but was perturbed by a St Bernard who I felt had excessive facial skin.

Sorry, got the impression the GSD was a semi sort of protest by the judges! From ribs forward - lovely ... heading towards the backend, dreadful :-( Loved the flattie though :-)

Now I thought the Vallhund very nice too.  I'm biased though ;)

Well done Elmo. What fabulous colouring and temperament. Lovely to see a GSD in the final line up. The way this breed is normally shown does the breed no favours. The stacking makes them look like the bum is on the floor but this is generaly just the way they are posed. I loved the flatcoat and was a well deserved win, his tail didn't stop wagging.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">His front half deserved the win, but ...

I was appalled at him winning - I'm sure there's worse but he just looks deformed [in the back half] to me.  Definitely not a healthy looking dog and an image that byb's etc could aspire to. 
I would be happy to see responsible, informed, constructive criticism in the press,

He's not deformed, he is fit for function, has his SchH3. Just because his back slopes, does not mean it is not correct or there is anything wrong with it, its how the breed are, it like saying dachs are deformed because they have 'unusually' short legs.

I think the problem for lots of us not in the breed is equating this construction with soundness - to me the curved topline, plus the "hinged" aspect of the spine are concerning and don't suggest good construction, even more worrying is the over angulation of the hind legs, it looks as if it is putting extreme stress on the hind quarters to gait in this way with such construction.  I do understand it is irritating to have people not in the kdnow criticising, but it is so different from what is deemed good construction in any other breed it is hard to see how it is better than typical conformation for most breeds.  I don't see it is the same as a saying short legs dogs are deformed - a well constructed Dachsi or Bassett will still meet the usual criteria.  Is it that GSD have something different in the way they are put together to make this more desirable?

Dachs are deformed because of their short legs and long backs.   Well maybe deformed is the wrong word - but their health and potential enjoyment of life are compromised because of the exaggerations in the way they have been bred for showing.    It's wrong - and I think any dog lover that breeds them like that needs to take a look at themselves.   I know that's harsh but it's true.  

The GSD that won wasn't as bad as that but it was bad enough - so long as these kind of dogs keep winning we'll keep getting the bad press for show dogs.  

The Vallhund BOB is beautiful example of the breed but I and many others in my breed are glad she got shortlisted but went no further.

I personally have not had an increase in puppy enquiries since the weekend but, as there are no puppies available at the moment, it wouldn't make any difference. I've also found that when you explain to Joe Public that they'll have to wait, most go on to buy a different breed as unfortunately most people want their puppy NOW!

That is the advantage of non availability of the numerically small breeds, there are unlikely to be many pups readily available until the novelty wears off

Sorry qwerty but this isn't 'how GSDs are' - admittedly this wasn't wasn't severely overangulated, but he is imo overangulated and we should be aspiring for better show dogs :-(  There are plenty of more level backed dogs in the world and the interpretation of the show standard which has led to this should be changed for the health of our sheps. I have two sheps with lovely backs, without the fold or roach back and who are amazingly athletic.  I watch over angulated sheps trying to do agility and it's pitiful to watch.

In many ways breeds which have been bred to extremeness are 'deformed' and we should look at all the breed standards and wonder if breeding has 'gone too far', look at the working types and look at the show types and if there's a huge difference then maybe show interpretation should be reconsidered.  Look at working and show beardies.... look at working and show cocker spaniels ..... neither are deformed, but are very different.

It is absolutely shocking that the GSD won the Pastoral Group at Crufts.

Terrible that a dog that has been hip scored, elbow scored, DNA proofed and haemo tested clear, has passed the KK1 breeding test (ie recommended for breeding) and has got his LBZ (life certificate) as well as having qualified Schutzhund 1, 2 and 3.

I wonder what this judge and the judges that awarded him BOB in the GSD ring, awarded him the Pastoral Groups and BIS in several shows in 2010 were thinking!?

He is obviously a ghastly specimen and not fit for function?!

Good Grief, amazing how many experts there are outside the ring and outside the breed that appear to have so much more knowledge than those who have studied their craft for quite a considerable number of years.

Both judges in Germany and in the UK must obviously need a labrador and a white stick.

Congratulations to John and Pauline who have done a great job with not only this dog but many others they have bred over the years to make their kennel a consistent winner both at home and abroad!

Yes, unfortunate indeed that this has happened :-( although it seems that only people outside the breed ring can 'see' the problems of show GSDs which is a terrible shame, somewhat like the 'Emperor's Clothes' I think.
Personally I've had GSDs for nearly 30 years, my original one was from a show kennel and was a lovely looking dog without the hinge and roach of many today.  My second was from someone who bred the 'old style' dog - she was fantastic, jumped in agility (2' 6" hurdles) until an injury led to her early retirement at 11 years old.  My current shep is a more level backed dog with a fantastic jump and running action.  Not like many of the show dogs.  I have bred two litters of puppies, all of whom have excellent actions and a pleasure to watch run and jump.
Whilst the dog who did so well at Crufts isn't as over angulated as other dogs it seems we've still some way to go to get back to how the breed was.  This has got to be recognised by those within the breed as otherwise the breed will continue to slip into a laughing stock (which is how many of the dogs are seen).  Sometimes those too close can't see what's happened (wood for trees?).

> Congratulations to John and Pauline who have done a great job with not only this dog but many others they have bred over the years to make their kennel a consistent winner both at home and abroad!

And for the foresight to change from the more 'english type' long and low (with stifles nearer the ground) and import the germanic, athletic and sounder temperamented type.

Many congratulations to the team.

Tohme I think I love you :-D :-D :-D

Well I loved the Judge of GSD's own dog Ch Norwulf Going for Gold at Slatehouse, http://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2009/July2009/News170709/slatehouse.htm a very much middle of the road dog, so cannot see him putting up and extreme dog of either type.

Thome I love you too .
I don,t know Elmos owners personally but have admired their dogs for many years and they well deserve the win.
I,m proud to have seen him win his group. And Steve handled him so well congratulations to him too.
Thanks for posting so well what many of us are thinking.

> Well I loved the Judge of GSD's own dog Ch Norwulf Going for Gold at Slatehouse, [url=http://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2009/July2009/News170709/slatehouse.htm" rel=nofollow]http://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2009/July2009/News170709/slatehouse.htm[/url] a very much middle of the road dog, so cannot see him putting up and extreme dog of either type.

He hasn't owned a bad specimen yet....very, what I call english type. I dont think some folk realise that, once a dog has one of it's back legs brought forward, like the GSD stance is, that does give a slope to the topline...try it with your own dog & see what happens

Perhaps they should start standing the dogs square then outsiders would be less critical?