Do you think it is 'wrong' to want a specific colour of a breed? Im talking about a colour that is perfectly acceptable in a breed and has no health problems because of it.

Im not talking about choosing purely for colour, but maybe searching/waiting a little longer until a pup of a certain colour crops up in a litter.

No I don't think it's wrong, it's down to personal preference like most things. 

Naturally, breeders want good owners that have considered health/temperament and other factors before colour when selecting a puppy and of course, they want owners who have researched the breed and can offer a good home. But if a breed has a wide range of healthy and acceptable colours then getting a healthy pup from a good breeder of the colour you prefer is the "icing on the cake'. 

It is unwise though (as you have mentioned) to choose a puppy on colour alone.

I don't think there is anything wrong with that. After all you have to live with the dog, best have the one you really want :-)

Of course colour is secondary to construction, movement, temperament when showing (assuming the colour is in breed standard), but in choosing a dog to share your home I think it's important to have one that you like the look of :-)

I think you have to weigh up a few factors here.

I've had a blue merle Border Collie that I adored, and wanted for his colour (and working bloodlines.)

I have a red and white boy now, chosen I suppose, so that I wouldn't make comparisons.  No other blue merle would have matched up!  But, if a quality black and white dog had come along, that would have been fine.

It does depend a bit on breed.  When someone came to me several years ago, and chose a pretty gunmetal grey pup from a litter of Long Coat Chihuahuas, I asked how important the colour was.  I could already tell by 6 or 7 weeks that he would turn fawn.  Some breeds, for this reason, shouldn't be chosen on colour, as some change beyond recognition.

If you are choosing a colour because you find it more aesthetically pleasing, I understand that.  As long as you have already looked at the health side of things, then a wait for what you really yearn for is perfectly natural.  After all, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

On the other hand when breading colour really should be the last of your considerations (assuming ti is a good colour of the acceptable colours), you should be aiming to produce the best specimens you can regardless of colour.

Of course if the studs you like are equally good and the one that will more likely produce the colour you would like then fine.

If I had to choose the better pup in the litter or a less good one of the colour I prefered I would chose the better puppy and when I bred from it try to find a quality mate to produce the desired colour, and hopeful in the next generation I would get the best pup in the prefered colour.

I am never likely to own these breeds but if I wanted a Cavalier I would really prefer a Black and Tan or Tricolour, in Beagles a Blanket Tri, and in border collies a Tri with a good amount of bright tan, I love the colouring of Bernese and Hamiltonstovare, in the latter two fortunately they are the normal standard pattern.

I much prefer being in a breed where there is one desired colour/pattern, even then some people prefer lighter and darker shades, but standard in my breed does say medium shades prefered.  Mind you what to one person is medium may to another be dark, and a third light ;)

I don't think there is anything wrong with that. After all you have to live with the dog, best have the one you really want :-)

This is exactly what I say to both puppy buyers and kitten buyers. In my main dog breed there are only 3 colours accepted, two of them are very close to each other and cannot be told apart as pups (takes up to a couple of years before they have their final colour) the third is extremely rare and sadly about to die out. (However when I had two pups of that colour in a litter they were the first to be booked.) In kittens however almost always the first consideration of pet buyers is the colour and I see nothing wrong with that. A pet buyer has to pick what they really want. Just like I when I was going to get a new Cavalier after my old one died realised that it had to be a Blenheim as nothing else would quite feel right. And I was after a pure pet not for showing or breeding. (Had to LOOK like his breed should without major differences such as those you often get from BYBs, and be healthy, etc -but other than that minor faults didn't matter to me.)

i dont think its wrong at all. i had a salt and pepper schnauzer and wanted a second so chose a black so i could tell them apart! if i had scotts i would like  a wheaten, not a black.
i dont agree with exploiting colours obv such as merle daches or chis which have a lethal gene, or selling 'rare' colours like blue staffs for more money because they are in fashion

Just like I when I was going to get a new Cavalier after my old one died realised that it had to be a Blenheim as nothing else would quite feel right.

The exact same thing happened to me, I had already had two blenheim Cavvies, so I decided that the next one was going to be completely different, a Ruby, after all they were the same colour all over as my beloved Blenheims darker markings.  I went to see a gorgeous health tested, parents MRI'd Ruby litter, I took one look and just didnt feel the same.  I went on the same breeders waiting list for her other dog to produce a blenheim litter and had one of those instead.  Just felt right :)

I think as long as the health tests are in place then you go for what you want.

No of course not, I started with a blenheim Cavalier, fancied a tricolour for a change next time and was willing to wait until the right colour came up along with all the usual things you would look for in a puppy.

No it isn't wrong to want a specific colour in a breed....it only becomes an issue when the "colour" is being exploited by "breeders" who have no understanding of the mode of inheritance....and unwittingly breeding in defects and health problems because of it....

Have to say that I'm a bit of a traditionolist when it comes to coat colour....but if I was looking to buy a "colour" in then it would only be after a careful study of pedigrees...the all important temperaments and then health tests....and in my breed would want at least one of the parents to be black and white. From this point of view I would be willing to go on a waiting list for however long it took to get the right dog.

But.....I've found that people buying a dog for a companion only.....and I feel that they are always going to be the majority....are often very specific about the colour they want. Whether they are prepared to go on to waiting lists...or whether they end up buying a dog with potential health problems because they won't wait...I don't know...?? (I also don't know how you can then stop the exploitation based on coat colour when this is happening..??) 

(Case in point....I waited over a year for a Brown Classic Tabby Maine Coon....not because there is any shortage of classic brown tabbies....there isn't....theres lots of them.....but many breeders are now losing size...and losing the traditional American face shape that I like in favour of a more European look. He cost me £1500 from a breeder who maintains the American lines... feeds part Raw and only minimally vaccinates her Queens and Studs as kittens and never again. There are many factors that are important to me personally...that made him worth the wait...and worth every penny.. :) )  

We have colour classes at our breed club shows and they are well supported. All colours are meant to be of equal merit assuming all else is equal.

He cost me £1500 from a breeder who maintains the American lines... feeds part Raw and only minimally vaccinates her Queens and Studs as kittens and never again.

Hm but this would also mean they cannot show........If you've ever watched Maine Coons at an actual show in the US you will find a lot of the time it's the smaller cats being shown.

I have a lovely B/T Cavvie, we went to buy her with that colour in mind. Next year Im hoping to buy in a either a Ruby or B/T again, I know Blenheim is a very popular choice but they have never appealed to me (I dont know why), the same goes for the Tri aswell, but I will be looking for health tested parents first and foremost. I will wait until I get the dog of my choice though.

He cost me £1500 from a breeder who maintains the American lines... feeds part Raw and only minimally vaccinates her Queens and Studs as kittens and never again.

Hm but this would also mean they cannot show........If you've ever watched Maine Coons at an actual show in the US you will find a lot of the time it's the smaller cats being shown.

These lines produce show winners all over the world....so are not prone to the gross size exaggerations that I think you might mean..?? The point I'm trying to illustrate though (and maybe not doing a very good job of it :) )..... is that there are people like me...who are occassionally part of the pet buying public.... for whom health and temperament ARE already a major focus.

I would never dream of doing a Merle to Merle to mating in my breed...but again....how do you get that information out to everyone who owns merles or to everyone considering buying a Merle..??

(Then to add to the coat colour debate....when you also have black and tan dogs like Dobermans and Rottweillers who seem to statistically suffer more adverse reactions to vaccinations than some other breeds....then coat colour again becomes integral to health)

What I'm trying to say is....if people like me are prepared to save hard earned pennies....conduct a lot of research and wait a long time if neccessary to acquire the type of dog/cat with the best possible chance of living a good long happy life.....even when looking for a traditional colour.....then how best to get that information out to everyone in the dog buying public...??

> (Then to add to the coat colour debate....when you also have black and tan dogs like Dobermans and Rottweillers who seem to statistically suffer more adverse reactions to vaccinations than some other breeds....then coat colour again becomes integral to health)

This is an interesting one, and which came up on another forum not long ago. I looked as hard as I could for information on this and couldn't find anything definitive. Presumably it implicates dogs with the a(t) gene (which is the colour gene responsible for Dobes & Rotts colouring).... but there are many other breeds of dog - not all of them obvious - that have the same gene as part of their make-up. Some breeds are born black & tan but lighten later, but that doesn't mean they don't still have a(t).

These lines produce show winners all over the world....so are not prone to the gross size exaggerations that I think you might mean..?

Just to clarify -I'm always a bit suspicious of people who breed without showing -especially charging those prices. I have never heard of so much being charged for an MC here -especially if it's just as a pet or show neuter and not to breed from.

i dont think its wrong , both my king charles(not cavaliers) are black and tan,and having seen the other colours we are drawn to wholecolours,ie the b/t and ruby,with b/t being my favourite by far. the blenheims and tri's do nothing for us,personally and we know quite a few wholecolour enthusiasts.in america the wholecolours are even judged seperately from the blens and tris.so no i dont think its wrong provided the pup you want excels in everything else,you have to live with them..roy.

It's no more 'wrong' to want a certain colour than to want a certain breed, surely? Our breed only comes in 2 colours, and I prefer black, so that's what I'll have, can't see me ever having a liver.

There's a saying in the horse world that a good horse is never a bad colour, but again, there's certain colours of horses I personally would never, ever buy, but there's plenty out there of the colours I like, so it's not an issue.

If people weren't bothered what shape, size or colour their dog was, we wouldn't have so many breeds with such huge differences.

> These lines produce show winners all over the world....so are not prone to the gross size exaggerations that I think you might mean..?
>
> Just to clarify -I'm always a bit suspicious of people who breed without showing -especially charging those prices. I have never heard of so much being charged for an MC here -especially if it's just as a pet or show neuter and not to breed from.

Me neither!     I have paid less than that for my imported Selkirk Rex including all vaccinations and Pet Passport.

I'm completely guilty, i knew when i first saw the Jindo's that i wanted a red bitch, odd really as my German Spitz are all creams/whites, and they come with the widest range of colours, and yet i didn't want a white Jindo.

Just to clarify -I'm always a bit suspicious of people who breed without showing -especially charging those prices. I have never heard of so much being charged for an MC here -especially if it's just as a pet or show neuter and not to breed from.

I've had Maine Coons for 16 years...they are the gentle giant of the cat world...intelligent...talkative...majestic and humourous...and complement my BCs perfectly. I've visited cat shows and a fair few breeders over this time. I find some Breeding Terms are ridiculously restrictive...and I spoke to one breeder who was telling me her 7 stage "grooming process"...the first of which involved smothering the cat in Swarfiga :( No way do I ever want a kitten from a Sire who is regularly smothered in Swarfiga just so he can go to a Show..! (I walked away horrified..!) I was introduced to him a week after show and have to say that my own neutered MC boys have better coats....and all I do with them is give them a brush once a week and feed Raw.

I have four girls. One is tiny (kibble fed by breeder) for an MC...and has breathing problems (she needed an op to flush out her tubes but this has left scar tissue)...something I feel is developing because the face..muzzle and jaw shape is altering in certain lines. One had been given every cat vaccination under the sun by her breeder including non-core and she has had nothing but health problems. One came from a cattery raised on kibble over all generations and who finally gave up breeding as she eventually was losing too many kittens to long lasting synulux. I love them all dearly but in my opinion none of these would make good Mothers.

I have just the one girl whose breeder Raw feeds and only minimally vaccinates. She's an absolute dream of a cat in temperament and structure....as is my Boy. I might show them...I might not. I might have kittens in the future or I might not....but either way I do know that if I did.... I have done everything possible to a) keep what I feel is the natural face shape and structure for an MC and b)any kittens would have been given the very best natural start in life that I am able to give them....and... none of them would ever leave here with any advice from me...to cover them in swarfiga or subject them to a life of dry kibble....when they are obligate carnivores. 

To get this back on topic...I know I'm forever going off on tangents...it absolutely has to be about the "whole dog" first (Temperament and immune system health being vital in my eyes).... ....with coat colour being the "cherry on top" for people who have their heart set on a certain colour. :)       

> I might show them...I might not.

If you do want to show them, they will need to have up-to-date vaccinations & vacc certificates.

If you do want to show them, they will need to have up-to-date vaccinations & vacc certificates.

Theres my answer then....will just have to wait for the change in legislation....

This is an interesting one, and which came up on another forum not long ago. I looked as hard as I could for information on this and couldn't find anything definitive. Presumably it implicates dogs with the a(t) gene (which is the colour gene responsible for Dobes & Rotts colouring).... but there are many other breeds of dog - not all of them obvious - that have the same gene as part of their make-up. Some breeds are born black & tan but lighten later, but that doesn't mean they don't still have a(t).

It is interesting isn't it..?? Have you heard of any other breeds with the a(t) gene where the incidence of adverse reaction is statistically higher..?? I asked my own vet about this when I was discussing the results of my own dogs Titre Tests with her. She acknowledged the higher statistic in Dobes and Rotts but her explanation was...shall we say...less than scientific.. :)

Theres my answer then....will just have to wait for the change in legislation....

That was my entire point -if this breeder does not vaccinate they CANNOT show, and anyone who does not show but still charges £1500 for a kitten -that to me very much smacks of somebody breeding only for money. There certainly won't be any change in the rules either -if you show you have to vaccinate and have to have the cats examined by a vet upon arrival, and they are very strict indeed -so to show actually often means the cats are fitter than others........they HAVE to be.

That was my entire point -if this breeder does not vaccinate they CANNOT show, and anyone who does not show but still charges £1500 for a kitten -that to me very much smacks of somebody breeding only for money.

No...I said she only minimally vaccinates. It is quite possible therefore to gain show success first before ever fathering a litter of kittens... and then go on to father many more kittens during a lifetime. Then those kittens in turn are only minimally vaccinated for when they leave at 12 weeks. There are many people making the connection between both ill health...and long term ill-health...and some vaccinations...its not just me.

To me, minimally vaccinated would be Feline Enteritis vaccine only.
I don't know if the rules have changed but this used to be the only required vaccine for shows - Cat Flu & Feline Leukaemia were optional.

If you are referring to Nosodes then that's not regarded as vaccination. Going back a decade or two a well-known breeder of Burmese decided to stop vaccinating and use Nosodes only; and subsequently had a serious outbreak of Feline Enteritis.

Going back to choosing colour - I don't think it's wrong as such but I do think it needs to be done carefully, especially if it's a less common colour.

Using my dobes as an example - Remy is a fawn, when I got him I was very stupid and impatient, he was bought without looking into the parents etc at all (although I did research the breed itself).  As a result I have a dog with an extremely poor coat and secondary skin infection as part of that problem - it's a well known issue with the blues and fawns (and he was born of a cross of the two).

Now I would absolutely love another fawn - I adore them and would dearly love to have a fawn girly, or a blue come to that.

I could also go out tomorrow and in all probability, find a breeder and get a fawn or blue pup just like that - there are a fair few being bred.

But part of choosing a pup is picking a good litter - so if I want health tests, temperament etc to have been considered then I need to choose carefully.  Which is why after nearly 8 years of looking, I have yet to find a single dobe breeder who not only produces blue and fawn pups but who does all the tests - they just don't seem to exist.  I can find one or the other - I know of 2 breeders who do all the tests so far, and as I said I could find breeders of the colours tomorrow - but not both together.

That's the clincher - finding the colour you want that's been bred properly, not just for the colour itself (as is the case with the blue, fawn (and white) dobes at the moment - it's all about the money).  Nothing wrong with wanting a specific colour, so long as health and temperament aren't set aside to get it :-)

What do you mean by "minimally vaccinated" ? Kittens when sold (not before 13 weeks) and any cat when shown must have been vaccinated against both flu and enteritis (FIE, FVR and FCV). In any event, it is the prize I am really reacting against here -£1500 for a pet?  You can get a good quality MC pet/show neuter for £450 from good breeders from American import lines. Certainly Persians when sold for BREEDING and showing tend to cost at least £1000 but even there I haven't heard of £1500 and certainly not for a pet as a pet and show neuter would always be the lowest price -roughly one third of breeding/show price. I hope the parents were at least DNA tested for HCM.

I have had many many people contact me for puppies and they ALL want one thing (A blue merle) I have not had a single person ask for a tri.

I believe that if you love a breed dearly any colour will do.

If I was going back to English Springers I would want a black and white one, not a liver one, so yes, colour can be important. I just don't like liver and white Springers. I would happily take on a tri colour though so long as it was a black tri, not a liver tri ;-) Colour is a personal thing and so long as the ancestors have been health tested why shouldn't you go for a colour you like? You have to live with the dog for the next 12-15 years so it as to appeal to the eyes.

I think if someone was wanting a specific colour for the wrong reasons.. that would worry me a little.

For example, someone deciding that as their last dog was a certain colour the next one MUST be because the previous one was so good - would lead me to worry that they may expect the new dog to BE the previous dog [as does often happen, as owners have forgotten that the last dog died aged 15 and thus its been  a LONG time since Sainted Previous Dog was in fact a horrible puppy].

Or if people have misconceptions about a certain colour being 'better'... and thus attempt to choose an unsuitable puppy, or a puppy from a disreputable source purely to obtain that colour...

Otherwise, its your dog and you have to live with it!

When I was looking for my Tibby pup, I would have preferred a gold and white or sable and white pup - but to me the right puppy was more important and he turned out to be black and white, so that's what I have. [T'aint an issue in Deerhounds, though I would love to see the other colours return I doubt it will happen!]

A dog is far far more than its colour, so people choosing the wrong puppy or wrong dog breed completely, basing their choice soley on appearance, is always going to be a recipe for potential disaster. But people can also end up resenting living with the dog they didnt really want, so it works both ways (though, speak to certain rescues with strong opinions on what you do and do not like in a dog and you can get brandished some sort of arrogant, unrealistic freak. I know I have, but then I will NOT have a staffy x again. Therefore I am evil. Ho hum!)

No I don't think it's wrong to want a specific colour of a breed.
It is afterall personal preference as to what each of us require in a puppy.
Some people are very exacting in their requirements for their next puppy.
Even had one looking for a puppy born on a particular date...and then
colour and markings etc.

I have my own particular favourite colour in my own breed Boxer which is a nice
stag red, then for me I do like 4 white socks & an even blaze on the face...

I own brindle and white girls, both have varying white markings and none symmetrical..
The oldest girl (whom I bred myself) I chose above her symmetrically marked brindle
litter sister as she was to me the pick of
litter for showing in both construction and attitude/temperament.
Then I have a solid sooty faced red and her flashy red and white litter sister.

For me (after weighing up health, longevity and temperament of parents and past generations)
colour preference is just one of a number of things, as I show I need a puppy that has good construction
the right show temperament etc, the colour and markings are the 'icing on the cake'.
But I wouldn't pick a puppy based on colour alone. The only time that I'd pick on colour is if I had
two identical puppies in terms of construction & temperament etc and couldn't choose between them
then I'd more than likely go for the red puppy over the brindle.
But if the brindle puppy was the best pup then I'd choose the brindle, no brainer for me.

If said person is in no rush and is quite happy to wait until the right coloured pup comes up
then it's their decision.