I have read with great interest the tales by Springer Mania and the more recent Mad Mad Springer as well as lots of the messages on biting and peeing! I would love to know what the latest developments with Springer Mania's dog are! I have just acquired a 7 month old male Springer Spaniel. I've had him for 2 weeks today and he sounds just like Springer Mania's dog with additions!

I grew up with dogs and have had two of my own and I've never had a dog like this before. He is very hyper active which I have no problem with. I live in a country park (in Hong Kong) and he has a basket full of toys and chew things! However, he won't stop lunging at me and my husband and grabbing hold of our clothes and flesh, no matter what we do. We've tried turning our back on him. He just grabs us from behind. We've tried the stern 'NO!' and he is completely oblivious. We've tried the yelping when hurt but that's just ignored. We've grabbed him by the collar and shaken him a little and that has no effect. We've grabbed him and put him on a lead and left him to cool off and he does but as soon as we let him free he's off again!

Also, he has shown signs of aggressive snapping and grabing of arms and hands. All when he has had things that are not his or not for him to chew. The first time was at the Vets when he had his lead in his mouth. He snapped at me. The second time was when he was in the back of the car and my husband pulled a sheet of paper that he was sitting on from underneath him. After that it was when he had picked up things from the street, or got the odd sock and then strangely when trying to take his lead off after a walk.

He's not possessive over his food. He has to have one of us close while he's eating, otherwise he doesn't really eat. He's generally been okay with his toys. I have been offering treats for the stollen items and that works but it's the unexpected snapping when I'm just taking off his lead, which isn't in his mouth, that is worrying.

I'm also worried that the lunging fanatically could become agressive. He looks completely wild sometimes and is so persistent and it really hurts too! I'm covered in bruises!

He's just as wild when he meets another dog or person. If he's off the lead he's his playful very alarming self. If he's on the lead he gets aggressive through frustration I think. Yesterday we met a golden retriever when he was on the lead and it was off the lead and he started to growl and snap. Today the reverse happened. He was off the lead and another golden retriever was on its lead. He leapt all over it! Luckily it was docile and I had the treats which at the moment he is still quite taken by, so I got him to come to me.

Just one more thing. It might be relevant! For the first week or so he appeared to deliberately pee when angry! He doesn't seem to be doing it now, although he did it in the living room yesterday after a neighbour came over and after they had left their dog climbed over the fence and got into our garden. He was wetting his bed too but seems (fingers crossed) to have stopped that. Bed was taken away for a period of time and replaced with newspaper!

Do you think this dog can become more aggressive?

Fiona

Hi Fiona,

Do you know the history of your Springer before you acquired him? To me it sounds like he was completely untrained and undisciplined. Plus, I expect he's having adjustment "nerves". He does not sound like a bad or aggressive dog.

Stacey

I'm afraid I don't know his history at all.

Has he had his eyes checked - Springers suffer from a variety of eye defects that can limit their vision, speaking from experience (my own Springer bitch has a retinal condition) this can cause them to 'snap' at things that appear suddenly. He may feel unable to defend himself when on the lead, or when eating (thus the need to have somebody standing by to 'defend' him.......) These are just possibilities ofcourse, but it can't do any harm to get him thouroughly checked over by a vet first.

This is interesting. He's had quite red eyes since we got him. We had him checked over about a week ago and the vet thought it might just be the change of environment (air-conditioning to fresh air) but they don't seem to be getting any better. Also my husband seems to think he can't see that well in the dark as he's quite jumpy. I'll take him back to the vet today and see what he says.

I was lucky - my vet is an opthalmic specialist, so he was able to diagnose 'on the spot' - you may need a referral if your vet doesn't have the 'kit' - but make sure he's aware of what he is dealing with - here's a list of possible problems: Generalised Progressive Retinal Atrophy (GPRA), Central Progressive Retinal Atrophy (CPRA), Primary Glaucoma, Entropion

HTH

Fran

Dear Fran

Just come back from the VET. Unfortunately I didn't have the information in your e-mail but the VET seems to think his eyes are fine and that the redness is nothing to worry about. He's put the behaviour down to being in a pet shop for 3 months and missing out on a proper puppyhood. Actually he couldn't help a great deal and unfortunately in Hong Kong there aren't a lot of places to go to get help. I've been recommended a private trainer and I'm going to try and contact him.

He performed like a mad thing at the VETs. A golden retriever cross came in with its owner and he cried, screeched and desperately tried to get at it! We also had a puddle bang in the middle of the rug this afternoon. He was angry because I'd left him alone earlier, I believe. He also snapped at me twice - the lead thing again. But he didn't seem to be bothered about getting hold of my hand. Just showing anger.

He's behaving like an angel now though!

Fiona

Some of this sounds very much like my friends 'mad mad springer'. The only difference is there is absolutely no aggression in her case. Her eyes go red when she gets excited, but I'm sure her eyesight is ok as she can spot a leaf blowing around miles away! Apparently, she too gets jumpy when he takes her for a walk at night, sticking her nose in every hedge or bush as though somethings going to jump out on her at any moment. The more I think about it, the more it looks like fear, even though she appears very bold. She's the same with other dogs, gets all excited, go towards them, then backs away and starts barking. The excitement though is absolutely uncontrollable, and nothing will divert her attention away from something she sees as exciting, not food, a tap on the nose, clicking fingers etc.

Now where you have to be careful (as far as I'm concerned), is with the aggression part. I'm kind of old fashioned in that I don't think it should be tolerated whatever the circumstances. If it gets to the point where you (or someone else) gets bitten, then I believe it's 2 strikes and they're out. Pure and simple. No excuses about upbringing, socialising etc, they simply can't be trusted.

Strangely enough, my friends springer has always had good socialising going to the local springer club etc, but has apparently made no difference at all. Sure she's got a screw loose, but he'll have to wait to see what the behaviourist says.

Hi Fiona. Your dog sounds a right handful, much worse than mine. He sounds very traumatised. I can't give advice as I don't have any experience of dogs except my own which I've only had for 4 months. He too can't be distracted by anything when he is excited, like Dave's friends dog. When he jumps up and bites you is he applying real pressure or breaking the skin? Ours is just nipping or mouthing and has never drawn blood or broken skin. BTW, we used to think he was a bit vicious but we now realise he is just over-excited and if we are very calm and quiet (but firm), he is a bit calmer. Sorry I can't help, except to say I know how you feel! The more experienced people on here might be able to help you. Good luck.

I've just thought (*smell of wood burning*), is your dog peeing out of anger or is he just upset and stressed? Does he cope when you leave him alone? He sounds very insecure. It sometimes helps to leave a line tied to his collar indoors, if you ever have to stop him doing something you can move him without touching his collar or grabbing him within range of his teeth. Does he think you are going for his throat when you remove his lead? Ours used to bare his teeth when we grabbed him by the front of his collar (hence the line). This is the area another animal would attack and some dogs can see this as an aggressive movement. BTW, our dog is improving (very slowly) and we have been told by lots of people that a rescue dog can take about a year to really settle in. Two weeks is no time at all. We were told to be very firm with him but not soft or too soppy with him as he takes advantage. Let us know what is happening!

Thanks to both of you - Dave and Springer Mania - for your thoughts and ideas.

I will definitely try the line in the house.

As for the peeing. It could be stress and not anger that causes it. It's just difficult to imagine such a naughty, willful, playful and wild dog being stressed. At the moment we are stressed!

Unfortunately I've had two more aggressive incidents this morning. One over a stolen candle - my fault for his access to it and also for not offering something in exchange but it was 6.30 in the morining and I was half asleep. The second incident was more frightening. We were out walking when a lady with three dogs came towards us. I got Spencer on the lead. The lady had one of hers on a lead already and put one of the others on a lead (I know this particular dog as he belongs to a friend who's away and he's a big soft friendly lively labrador) but she left a smaller black mongrel - a corgi lookalike off the lead. It just walked up to Spencer calmly but Spencer went crazy - yelping and growling and then he grabbed hold of my arm. I was wearing a thick jacket and a sweater so all he got was fabric but it's unusually cold at the moment and I usually wear T-shirts when I'm out and if I had been today I feel I would have been badly bitten. Okay he might have thought I was the dog. He might have been frightened but we can't go for walks if he's going to react like this. This was early in the morning. Later in the day there are loads of people out and about. I'm sure it's a lead thing. Off the lead I don't think he'd be aggressive but he might cause aggression in other dogs because he would be wild in play. He would also frighten most people here to death. The vast majority are scared of dogs.

Maybe there is someone out there who can tell me whether training would help or whether I'm always going to have problems with this dog or whether I should/shouldn't put up with this. He's an absolute sweety when he calms down. He amuses himself with his toys and he comes and lies on top of us when we sit down and he's perfect at night time. We've got him used to sleeping in the bathroom off the main bedroom with a baby gate across the door and he can see us whenever he wants to and sleeps for nearly 8 hours most nights.

Out on your walk a likely reason your dog would have jumped up and bitten you is out of sheer frustration.
I have seen this loads of times with GSD's where they are being baited by a decoy and restrained by their handler. Because they can't reach the decoy to bite him and are getting more and more wound up - out of frustration they spin round and bite their handler. It doesn't mean that the dogs do not like their handlers but excitement takes over.

I think you are right but I'm not sure what the answer is because I can't just let him go. I'm actually convinced he just wants to play but some dogs are not so happy to have this mad dog leap about all over them. He needs an outlet. Actually I've just come back from another walk with him. I took him out with a neighbour who has got two mongrels - a timid one and an aggressive one - both female. He tried to play with the timid one who was off the lead and she just kept running away from him. He tried to play with the aggressive one who was on the lead most of the time but let off for a couple of minutes and she tried to bite him and I think he backed off, although we both got hold of our respective dogs pretty quickly, and we're not 100% sure what Spencer did.

Then I was on my own for a bit and this beautiful ten month old husky with blue eyes came out of nowhere and leapt on Spencer. He absolutely loved it and the two of them had a fantastic time although Spencer was half this dog's size! We did have a bit of problem getting them apart but neither dog became aggressive.

So, I've been in touch with the SPCA who run training classes for dogs 6 months and over and although they are exhorbitantly priced - nearly 200 British Pounds for 6 I'm going to give it a go.

Hi Lara - Cookie(GSD/collie) does this, I toy train (have one special toy to keep a dogs attention) and sometimes if I don't throw it as quickly as he would like me to, he will spin around and grab my hand (holding the toy) instead- I too have put it down to sheer excitement- and have now started to have my dogs go 'down' before I will throw a retrieve (as I don't do competition, it doesn't matter to me, as long as they aren't leaping AT me) - have you got any other solutions to this? Hope you don't mind me latching onto your thread? Julie:)

Fiona,
Just a thought concerning your description: "naughty, willful, playful and wild dog"

A confident and secure dog wouldn't be any of those except playful. Sometimes even 'playful' is shying away and trying to demonstrate some type of plea from a lesser to a superior.
"Active" is one thing for a young dog...but "wild" is definitely out of control and not what we dog owners desire to live with.
It really sounds as if your dog is stressed and confused, especially with the biting and the nipping going on. Unfortunately the internet and written words make it more difficult to discern what is occuring and how to repair it.
Good luck on finding someone to help you successfully sort this out in person.
regards,
toodles

With all the reading I'm doing at the moment I've come to the conclusion that his willfullnes etc is because he thinks he's the dominant one. I'm not really sure how to get him to be more submissive but I'm trying to take control and train him. The additional problem here is his hyper-activity and his desperate desire to play with everyone and everything. He's not easy to train but maybe the classes will help!

Fiona, I really feel for you. The description of your outings is very similar to ours. Our dog also wants to play but bites other dogs when on the lead. When off the lead (very rarely as his recall is terrible) he will play, albeit very roughly. However, so far his bites on other dogs have not broken the skin and he hasn't had a proper "fight" - just a lunge and a bite. An experienced owner has watched him with her dog and she thinks he is lunging out of fear (on the lead he can't run away which leaves only the fight response), not viciousness. I think that the training if you can afford it would be a good first step. Seven months old is very young and you have only had him for 2 weeks. Try to make a relationship with him whereby you are his whole world, the providers and controllers of food, play, toys, affection etc. (anything that he enjoys and sees as important). I understand when you say you can't imagine him being stressed, we used to think the same with ours, he seems such a confident little devil. We took him to a behaviourist and she opened our eyes to many things that we were doing wrong with him. Our dog is also better behaved when we play games and try to teach him things, he needs to use his brain as well as his body. Can he sit? We made ours sit in doorways to let us out first, which is basic good manners anyway. If yours is anything like ours, he will love to learn new things. Keep us posted. I don't know if you can e-mail from here but feel free to e-mail me privately if you need to let off steam!

Thank you for your message. I am so pleased I found this website. All the comments and suggestions have kept us going!

I have taught him to sit and he does beautifully for food, and in a fashion before going out of doors and crossing roads. He can't sit for long though, unless he's waiting for food. He comes back when I call him and shake the biscuit bag after a bit of hesitation and a zig zag approach and immediately sits and waits patiently. This morning we did some heel work on the lead with the biscuit bag too but then I left him alone for 10 minutes while I had a shower and despite having a bowl of biscuits, a variety of things to chew of his own and a basketful of toys he yelped and barked and chewed a door!

I seem to be getting the grabbing of clothes and limbs under control a bit better though. When I'm walking him and he lunges at me I give him a toy and he runs off with that. Then when he's calmed down a bit I exchange it quietly for a very small biscuit. At home I put something in his mouth and play with him for a bit and then he tends to calm down. If he doesn't I attach him to a long lead within my sight and he calms down immediately! I don't know why!

Just got to sort out the snapping, the inability to be left alone and how to calm down in the presence of other dogs!

YOu certainly do have your hands full. I tend to agree with others when they suggest the dog is stressed, and that the peeing is not because he is angry, more due to insecurity.

I am sure the training will help, but meanwhile why not treat yourself to some good dog behaviour books? Just to help understand why your dog does certain things and also to help you realise you are not alone ;) in all this. If you like the idea, take a look at www.crosskeysbooks.com as they have a good selection of books.

I am sure i read he was in kennels for a few months, and this really won't have helped at all. Maybe he was undersocialised with other dogs, and this coupled with his Springer mentality and energy can become a problem.

I suspect that with help and training he will actually be fine. He needs to learn self control, and a good instructor will be able to give all sorts of little lessons to teach to help with this. He can be given lots to do and needs to be busy :)

Good luck

Lindsay

Actually I think he is calming down a bit and we haven't had a peeing incident for a couple of days. I've been around all the book shops in Hong Kong and I've bought four books but they are more general in nature - one on the English Springer Spaniel (Haja van Wessem), one a 'K.I.S.S. Guide to living with a Dog', another 'Train your Dog' (O'Brien) and another 'You and Your Dog'. However, I'll have a look at the website and see if I can order a couple on behaviour. Thanks.

Nice to hear some progress is being made! Two books that have been life savers for me are "good dog behaviour" and "the rescue dog", both are by Gwen Bailey and are full of common sense and good advice. Can you use Amazon at all? Keep up the good work!

Thanks for this and I'll definitely will order these books.

<<<I'm not really sure how to get him to be more submissive>>>

There's a good website here : http://www.webtrail.com/petbehaviour/ which explains well the NILF (nothing in life free) programme. It's a good (kind but firm) way of letting the little guy know you are in control and not him and of relieving him of some of that stress. Bill Campbell also has some wonderful training books :)

Thanks for this too!

OK,I have read lots of posts re Springer "rage"   and  Springer "dominance aggression". I have read that some Springers are dominant , and if  not trained  properly and not exercised this dominance can be encouraged . I have read that  maybe our life styles  (working long hours , busy with kids etc) is causing some of these things. Well I am a devastated retired person who loves my Springer and spends a lot of time with my  dog. I am the trainer who has  trained this dog in seven plus disciplines. I have  achieved this with an eager dog that is easy to train , which would probably tell me he does not have dominance issues over me. He gets hour long off leash exercise almost daily unless there is some serious training to be had or when we are at trials and shows. He is a house dog, with free range of the house though at night he sleeps in the family room, in his pen.  Quite often he lays on his back ,paws to the ceiling ( I thought  a sign of a secure happy content dog). Yet having said this, I am experiencing the glazed look and snapping and or growing out of the blue. A few days ago on the couch having his tummy rubbed paws to the ceiling when  of the blue he snapped and bit,  though after this behavior he lay trembling on his bed. So is this rage or dominance aggression. PS  from a reputable breeder.   Would love to have some feedback.

Are you sure he's not in pain somewhere in the abdomen? How old is he?

This sort of change in behaviour needs through vet check including thyroid tests at least, I would ask for bloods to  be sent to Dr Jean Dodds labs for thyroid in particular. At least if he were mine that what I would be doing. Rage isnt common and is very unlikely to appear in an older adult dog

No.  This is pain, and/or something else - as ff has said, thyroid is a likely cause so this needs to be checked and it MUST be a full panel.  Dr Dodds is your best best.  What you need is free T4, total T4, free T3, total T3 and TgAA antibodies.  Do not accept anything less and you can take the forms in and tell the vet that you want samples taking to be sent off to her.  I can talk you through the process of sending, if you like, I've done it a few times.

If his thryoid comes back fine then consider possible neurological causes: sudden, unprovoked aggression with the glazed eyes etc can be a sign of things such as (sorry to have to say this, but I want to make you aware of the possibilities) a brain tumour, or epilepsy, or something else along those lines.

Whatever you do, do not accept the vet telling you that this is purely behavioural.  I've seen it happen many times, and I've had it happen with my own dogs when there has been an underlying medical cause.

I am sure he is not in pain as I can push all quadrants of the abdomen and he is fine. He will be five in August.

I appreciate the responses. My dog had extensive blood work when we were checking for allergies and apparently his thyroid tests were all fine. Came back allergic to sheep/wool/lamb allergies(go figure). I will revisit the vet and ensure that all the thyroid tests were done.

It's not necessarily pain from his abdomen; joint pain (and indeed any) can be referred from elsewhere.  I had a similar response from my first rescue dobe one day when I stroked her gently on her side when she was laid on the floor - she guarded beds and sofas but never the floor, and I was careful to make sure she saw me coming, so I knew something wasn't right.  The vet said she had a tiny bit of arthritis in one hip (the opposite side to where I'd touched); the reality was that her entire pelvis was tilted and twisted on two planes, and she had multiple misalignments in her spine.  A chiropracter found the problems, treated her and that lowered all of her aggression - not just the guarding, she was highly aggressive to people and dogs also - by at least half.

Going back to the thyroid; get the figures and the reference ranges.  Many cases are missed or dismissed because the numbers are still in range and what can be fine and healthy for one dog is low for another.  Four of my five hypos have only been diagnosed and started on treatment because I have spotted the problem and pushed for it, with Dr Dodds' help.  Also, standard vet tests are never the full panel - typically it's either total T4 (no good for diagnosis) or TSH (ditto, unreliable test) and the vets do not understand that these are not sufficient.  When I get my known hypos retested, I have to specifically request one form of the free T4 test (there are two or three variations, some less accurate than others), or I get a substandard test that doesn't give us enough information.  It's an absolute minefield.

Agree Thyroid issues can cause aggression and seizures http://drjeandoddspethealthresource.tumblr.com/post/60944623740/dog-aberrant-behavior-thyroid-dysfunction#.V3TqyNtwbbI

Thank -you for the references. I have an appt with the vet for complete check up and blood work as the last blood work only did T4 and I now want all thyroid tests done.