my 6 year old schnauzer suddenly has smelly breath (worse than normal) and i see a lot of tartar on her canines. she has denta sticks and rawhide but obv wont let me near her with a tooth brush or similar. i am seeing vet monday and was wondering if they can scale them at the time or does it have to be under GA? if so anyone know how much it may cost?
thanks

Vets tend to do it under GA and I would pay around £100 for a cat to have a dental so be more for a larger dog. Give raw meaty bones, much cheaper. :)

I have recently paid £168 for a dental on a toy dog.

Do you trim him yourself or use a groomer?  If it's a groomer, then they should be able to descale them for you, and should have done so regularly.  It's part of a good groomers' service. :)

I know quite a few groomers and I don't know a single one that offers descaling, that's above and beyond if you ask me! Your clients are very lucky!!

It was part of the training at the grooming school that I worked at. :)  It's in both the dogs and owners' best interest to avoid a GA. :)
Another good reason for seeing all the dogs every 8 weeks - it saves money in the long run. . :)

i paid £80 for a medium dog last week but i was expecting it to be over a £100 so i was quite suprised.

We weren't taught anything about tooth scaling. :-( Still, at least the people here in Suffolk are mostly more amenable to bringing them in regularly than my London lot were and are often open to suggestions of tooth brushing / vet checks / weight gain or loss. And I even got someone to brush a bichon correctly, first time anyone's ever listened to me and done it right the next time! Now, if only that matted cocker coming in for the 3rd time next week could be persuaded to come more often...... :-p

If teeth are cleaned every 8 weeks then there is little descaling to do.  Sometime a little around the gum margin.

Now, if only that matted cocker coming in for the 3rd time next week could be persuaded to come more often...... :-p
I would tell them, "This is my fee for a regular 8 week trim ...  For those leaving it longer so that their dogs are matted which takes more time, then my fee is ...(double!)"  Then they have a choice.  :)
If you allow owners to neglect their dogs, then they will.  It's not fair to the people who do groom their dogs and bring them in regularly to charge them the same fee. :(

no, my groomer doesnt do them, i suppose it will be GA then

I use a dental scaler that I bought from Petcetera many years ago but has anyone tried Petzlife dental gel and spray. The before and after pictures are impressive, but I just wonder if it can possibly be as good as the claims.

I was thinking of finding some at Crufts next week and giving it a go. If I do I'll do a critique.

Dawn R.

We're using Petzlife gel at present on two of our older Frenchies, a difference can be seen but more work to do on the back teeth. When our bottle gets nearer to the bottom I will def. order more.

I've only been using Petzlife for 3 days and one of our Pom's is already showing signs of improvement!  Ask me in a month what I think about it.

Yes, I will have to tell them if she comes in matted again I will have to charge more. I know she's had a mouth infection so they didn't want to have her bathed, but I really should have insisted she came in for a thorough brush out. I just don't want to be a nag! :-D

I've been using the Petzlife oral gel, it has improved George's teeth but not miraculously, mind you I'm too softhearted to remove all water for an hour twice a day so it's not the gel's fault. I might buy some of the spray at Crufts, how do people find that compares with the gel? I do find it hard to get the gel out of the bottle!

> It's part of a good groomers' service

WOW!  WestCoast, if I'd known that while I still had my Toy Poodle, I'd have moved closer to you!!  :-)  I was more than happy to pluck her ears regularly, but would have loved her teeth cleaned.

However, I do admit to using a dental tool for the Chi's now.

JeanSW, because of the training that I received and then passed on to others, I find it difficult to understand that others provide such a limited service to their clients. :(  We all think that we're 'normal' don't we?? :) :)

When I went for my first 2 weeks training, with my experience as a Veterinary Nurse and a dog owner, I really thought that I was going on a bit of a jolly working holiday.  I had no intention of working as a groomer - just thought that it would improve my knowledge running a kennel for 100 quarantine, 100 boarding, 60 cats and owner's 32 dogs with 9 staff!  Instead I sat up in bed, frantically reading my notes until 2am every morning!  It really was very intense.... 
But when I realised just how little I knew, I wanted to learn more so I gave up the kennel job and worked at the training schoool for 9 months.  Having been divorced when my daughter was 2 years old and being the only income earner, it was the best decision that I could have made. :)   Everyone who went through the school was taught to not only the correct way to handle the coat, trim to the breed standard but also how to descale and clean teeth, cut nails and remove ingrowing dew claws, express anals glands if necessary not as a matter of routine, have a good knowledge of zoonoses, recognise common ailments and when to advise the owner to take their dog to their Vet.  We were also taught how to use this knowledge to run a successful business and not be the same as all the sheep shearers in our area - and it works!!  :)  I have yet to come across a grooming course run by a general college to even scratch the surface. :( :(

I recently started using Plaque Off with my two cockers.  Just a little sprinkle over the dinner and it does it's thing. 

It has started to work as the other night I had a look in my youngest ones mouth and scraped a line of tartar right off a canine. 

I have never had to bother with teeth with my lot, even Granny Woo at 9 has sparkling white teeth. They all had fresh lamb ribs and backbones last night (had my lamb delivered and they always bring the bones from all the lambs usually 6 so lots of nice bones and breasts for the girlies) after an hours happy munching I defy any tartar to hang around. Makes a huge difference feeding raw.
Lage marrow bones do not do the same job. But the bones they crunch up like chicken carcass and ribs work a treat.
Aileen

Makes a huge difference feeding raw.
Definitely the best answer! ;)  Then I would rather manually scrape than use chemicals..... :(

> Then I would rather manually scrape than use chemicals

In fairness, looking at the ingredients list of the bottle I have here (won it, never have got round to trying it!) the ingredients list oon the Petzlife spray is quite natural really.

No reflection on any of the groomers on this thread, as obviously you didn't set the course content, but I am gobsmacked that a grooming course would not include something as basic as teeth.

M.

Have to say teeth really is a breed thing.  Our Pom's are a nightmare, get tar, lose teeth at an early age.  My Spanish have beautiful white teeth into old age.  My girl that died at 15 still had pearly whites although had been worn down by pulling tennis balls to bits etc.  My almost 11 year old has great teeth as does her daughter and two grand daughters.

>I am gobsmacked that a grooming course would not include something as basic as teeth.

To be honest I'm amazed that it would! A hairdressing course doesn't include dentistry, does it?

Westcoast, groomers are not allowed to do this legally.  I'm only saying to you for your own protection as should any of your clients get a gum infection or something and need to seek vet treatment, you could end up not only having to foot the bill but loosing your business too.  There have been loads of things passed recently to curtail the service that groomers can provide.  We also can't administer flea treatments or empty anal glads any more either, apparently.  Anything that is classed as vet treatment.
They couldn't pay me enough to scrape teeth!!  You go above and beyond.  I do, however, do my old girls teeth with a tooth descaler.  I know old breeders that use a penny to chip the tartare away.  If your dog would let you, I would give it a go yourself as most vet use GA.

> I am gobsmacked that a grooming course would not include something as basic as teeth.

> To be honest I'm amazed that it would! A hairdressing course doesn't include dentistry, does it?

Well if you put it like that LOL ... But would you expect groomers to clip nails? Same thing, surely?

Anyway, not an issue to me as I don't use groomers, just seems odd. As another poster (sorry, can't see name) has posted that it's not permitted anyway, it's obviously not considered part of the service these days.

M.

There have been loads of things passed recently to curtail the service that groomers can provide.
Can you show me where please and passed by who?  This was still being taught in September last year under PIA and at a C&G testing centre. :)
I have now retired cracar but my business was insured and I never made a claim in 20 years.  I was there to help the dogs and their owners not to hurt them, although I did have a number of clients who were referred to me by Vets after other groomers had cut or harmed dogs. :( :(

Cleaning teeth is what a pet owner should be doing and certainly not dentistry!

mine wont keep still for me to clean them with a product
however my older schnauzer (8) has pearly whites and both were fed the same obv

Three groomers in my area can't/won't do anal glands which suprised me. One told me that plucking ears/scaling teeth and anal glands are now considered to be 'internal', therefore a job for the vet. I notice that more groomers are wearing ear plugs and eye protection now, something that wasn't even considered when I trained, 'spose that's why I'm a bit mutton jeff.

> But when I realised just how little I knew, I wanted to learn more

Mmmm,,,  that's my answer!  :-)   Hungry minds are usually successful at what they do.

One told me that plucking ears/scaling teeth and anal glands are now considered to be 'internal', therefore a job for the vet
I'm really curious to know by whom?  Scissors are dangerous if not used correctly and many groomers don't know how to use clippers without cutting or burning!  The whole proceedure is a potential hazard if the groomer isn't correctly trained.

I've just taken this from a grooming school website.....
Ear cleaning - some breeds need to have hair plucked from the ear canal to prevent ear infections and canker - all dogs have their ears cleaned to remove wax and debris.

And here is part of the current training syllabus.
Nail trimming, ear cleaning and plucking and tooth descaling.

It is the Veterinary surgeons act passed in 1966 which covers this.  Basically the act states that only vet surgeons are authorised to 'work' on animals but there are exceptions.  Like Anal glands(which is a very grey area).  We 'technically' are still allowed to empty the glands but are not able to diagnose whether there is a problem with them or not!?  Treatments like flea treatments or mange(not that you would have that in your salon) are not allowed to be administered by anyone execpt vet staff or the owners.  This is all insurance related, I'm sure.  Don't shoot the messenger though as I do anal glands and have done teeth(only for a very special, long-time friend!) and also have done a few other things I probably shouldn't. 
If you google VSA 1966, you should get a full layout of the law but I don't think many people understand it enough to enforce it but you know insurance companies should something go wrong!
I understand you are there to help your dogs but I just thought I should add that in about the law as other people read the forum and could possibly offer the service with not as much experience or knowledge as you.

I'm sorry but I find that diffcult to understand if C & G tutors are teaching it ........... :(

I do agree that it should be taught rather than just tried!!

So does everyone!!  A few groomers I know have e-mailed and written to the Royal Vet college to get clarification and even them themselves are giving confused  and different answers!  The course I did also taught how to empty anal glands?!

Iam a groomer who also has written to the RCVS after my vet threw a wobbly at me doing anal glands as it invovles a diagnosis which only a they can do. Im sorry i know longer have the email, if you contact the RCVS they are very helpfull but its gets very complex!
I no longer offer these services either, dog owners are so quick to sue they blame the groomer for everything, its far safer to leave well alone.

Well that's one explanation. I was suprised at a recently trained groomer not doing anal glands and her reason was "just in case there's any cancers in that area" - that's a new one on me (and I've never come across a dog with cancer there either).

We've just had biopsy results back for a client's dog with an unusual anal-gland lump. Thankfully the small tumour isn't malignant, although very painful.

I was suprised at a recently trained groomer not doing anal glands and her reason was "just in case there's any cancers in that area" - that's a new one on me (and I've never come across a dog with cancer there either).
Me neither in 45 years so it must be very rare but of course all things are possible. :)  And if you're used to feeling 'normal' empty, full and impacted glands then you'd notice ones that didn't feel right.
But I suppose these are good enough reasons for people who haven't been trained to do ears, teeth, anal glands properly. :)  Vets teach owners to express their own dogs' glands so it's not exactly rocket science! :)
3 local Vets used to send old dogs to me to descale and clean their teeth if they didn't want to give them a GA......

> Makes a huge difference feeding raw

Kai's teeth are brilliant and white too.. Doesn't get as many bones of late, but they have made a huge difference to his teeth and like you recommend BIG TIME!!

I've seen two dogs with cancers there in my lifetime, but am surpirsed that they don't do anal glands.  Have to say I'd much rather go to a vet for teeth than a groomer.  Thankfully with my Spanish it's not a problem that I have to deal with.

I'm relieved to see you say that JG as that's kind of what I thought. I do do nails obviously and anal glands, and advise on general health eg weight, bad breath, sore ears, anal glands too sore to empty etc...

>>To be honest I'm amazed that it would! A hairdressing course doesn't include dentistry, does it?

just back from vet and it cost £24 to tell me she needs a scale and polish for £200! ouch

Yep! :(  The unnecessary GA offends me even more than the momey..... so two :( :(

but why unneccesary westcoast? i have booked her in for the end of march. i hate to think she may have toothache and they couldnt do it whilst she was awake, i cant get near her mouth

No, you're absolutely right tina. :)  
But that's why I (and other groomers that trained at the same place as me) kept my clients' dogs' teeth descaled and clean - to save them an unnecessary GA and their owners the cost and worry. :)

So how do you keep the dog still when you polish the teeth after you've cracked off any tartar? Because if they're not polished then the tartar will reform in no time - that's why sedation or a GA is needed to do a proper job of it.

It doesn't reform in 8 weeks JG, which is the time that the dogs would come back again.  After initial descaling, then they would usually only be cleaned with a brush and paste.  I would do it while they were standing on the grooming table.  Any inflammation, abcess, tooth decay etc that I found would be included in the written report to the owner with the suggestion that their dog needed to see the Vet.
The only dogs who needed a Veterinary dental were those with difficult mouths eg Shih Tzu and some toy breeds that I really couldn't get into.......
The 3 local Vets were very happy with what I did because I would spot all sorts of problems early and direct the dogs their way.  And they used to refer old dogs to me that they didn't want to put under.  One didn't believe that a descale could be done without a GA and so came down one day to watch! :)

PS  I knew that the sheep shearers around me didn't do teeth, anal glands etc and that was one reason why I charged so much more, but I really did think that all trained groomers did because that's what was (and still is!) taught at the grooming school that I worked at! :(

Are anal glands done automatically or just by request normally ?? I would be most upset if a groomer emptied my dog's anal glands when they didn't need it :(

Definitely shouldn't be done routinely unless advised to do so by their Vet. :(  If you express glands that aren't full, then you can cause problems.  :):)
But then I wouldn't do them on request either because most owners wouldn't know if they needed doing or not .........

If the owners said that the dog was scooting (and had been wormed) or I could smell them as the dog came in, then I would ask if they'd like me to check them.  It's easy to tell if they need expressing just by touch. :)

>After initial descaling, then they would usually only be cleaned with a brush and paste. 

How do you descale below the gumline, where the pockets of bacteria lurk; if they're not cleaned out the other problems that bad teeth can cause (bacteria in the bloodstream affecting the heart) haven't been cured, and the dog will still need a proper dental.

With a steralised metal descaler, just like the Vet - yes while they were just standing on the table!  No need for an anaesthetic. :)  I'm not going to discuss it anymore incase people who don't know what they're doing think about trying.... :( :(

> I'm not going to discuss it anymore incase people who don't know what they're doing think about trying

Definitely much better left to the vet IF it needs doing :) The whole grooming business sounds a minefield :( How do you know who is a 'good' groomer and what things are they qualified to do and what is really necessary to be done ???? I prefer my dog to be done by me even if she is a bit scruffy :) :) :)