I just finished reading a v good book called *Canine Reproduction* by Phyllis A Holst. 

One of the points she makes is that it is better to mate 3/4 days after the first mating, rather than the conventional 48 hrs after.  She says this widens the window of possible conception and reasons as follows:

'A single mating anytime from four days before ovulation until 3 days after ovulation will result in an excellent chance of conception (almost 100%) assuming both the dog and the bitch are fertile.  This fertile period is eight days in length...'

'Most bitches will first stand for a mating a few days before ovulating.  On the average, first acceptance occurs two days before ovulation...the average bitch that first accepts [here] should have an excellent chance of conception if she is bred on her first day of acceptance.  But what about those few bitches that will accept unusually early?...a percentage of our bitches will miss because of being bred too early.

In order to avoid that unfortunate event, I would advise breeding at first acceptance and then repeating the breeding approximately four days later.  This is a little different from the most widely used and most traditional plan of breeding (whenever) and repeating 2 days later.  Remembering that the goal is to achieve a mating during the bitch's fertile time, you will increase the odds of breeding a given bitch at the right time if you space the breedings a little further apart.  To breed two days apart might still result in a second breeding too early for a few bitches, but to wait four days should cover just about every possible individual, even the earliest breeders.  When circumstances allow and the stud dog is not in heavy demand, you could do three breedings, every two, three or four days, and have a nearly foolproof breeding management program.'

She is a reproductive vet and specialist who has carried out extensive research into ovulation (using beagles).  I'm wondering if anyone follows this advice and if not, why not?  (I ask because I am thinking of going back 3 days later, not conventional 48 hrs.)

I did my matings three days apart this time.  For pretty much the reasons she outlines.  Blood tests confirmed that the first mating occurred before ovulation, so I wanted to 'widen the window' so to speak, and went for another mating three days later, knowing that sperm from a young, healthy dog can last easily that long. So, you are giving yourself a better chance of success.

Am happy to report that it worked and pups are due next week!

my girl mated 1st day then missed 2 days then 2days later ...she went right to the day she had ovulated when she had her pups litter of 9 :)
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Thanks.  I guess my fear is.... If we do premate to identify ovulation and we get the first mating as near to ovulation as possible, if we then wait 4 days, we risk being over...  Perhaps this advice is only good if you're not doing premate tests and if you are just going by the average and doing first mating say on day 11 or something?

I'd follow the advice as well, that way you can be sure if covering the date.  The tests are not always reliable.

I'd agree if two matings is all you will be going for.

Better to keep mating until the bitch no longer stands, then you know you have not been too early.  Mating on alternate days means that the dog will get a rest between, but if young and pining for the bitch then using him daily will do no harm if the bitch is residing at the studs for the mating period.

I would say she is right as my Inka was mated on day 14, 16 and 18, and whelped 65 days after first mating so probably stood early.

In my breed I rarely find a maiden bitch will stand before ovulation or even not until the ova are ripe and plenty of dogs will not mate a bitch until then either.

Males are rarely in high demand in my breed, many only siring a couple of litters in their lifetime, many good ones never sire at all for lack of suitable mates.

> I guess my fear is.... If we do premate to identify ovulation and we get the first mating as near to ovulation as possible, if we then wait 4 days, we risk being over... 

Actually no, if you mate close to ovulation you will be at least two days early and 4 days later would make the mating to catch the last ripe eggs.  The bitch can't conceive until at least two days after ovulation,a dn ovulation lasts about 48 hours and the ova aren't mature for two more days and will be viable for up to three days.

I think most wrong timing is starting and stopping too early.

i agree with you barbra.

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So if I understand that correctly, ova often don't mature fully for up to four days after ovulation?  So theoretically, if a bitch were to amazingly follow the textbooks she would be most likely to conceive four to five days after ovulation starts?

How long is sperm viable for?

Aha!  Barbara, that is v useful!

I think sperm lives 2 days??

No its the Ova that live around 48 - 72 hours after maturation, sperm should easily live in condition for 4 days and survive a week.

The optimum time for sperm to reach Ova would be three days after ovulation when the majority of the Ova should have been ovulated and reached maturity and the oldest not deteriorated yet.

Great, so if most bitches first stand a few days before ovulating and you have first mating then... And then waited 4 days, you would be well into 1/2 days post-ovulation, and then the sperm will hang around for several days after that too.  I see now why this is a good idea if you're only going to have 2 matings.

But I can also imagine getting itchy feet and worrying that my bitch was going to go over and rushing back too soon.  I must remember not to!

My preference is to have the pair where they can mate when they like under supervision, and as soon the bitch says enough we know she has gone over.

As I said most of my bitches will not stand until well after ovulation so it then seems they have whelped early (if you count mating day), they are normally whelping between day 60 and 62 from mating which would mean they are being first mated 1 - 3 days after ovulation, which would tie in with the length of time they are willing to stand, some only standing for one or two days.

The most recent litter the bitch stood for five days and we had whelping 64 days after first, mating (maybe 63 if you took time difference into account), so she mated on or just prior to ovulation.  Bitches consistently whelp +/- 1 day 63 days from ovulation. 

This is why in my breed (who tend to have very natural mating behaviour) bitches appear to most often whelp early as they, or more often the stud dog will not mate early.

My mentor who bred successfully for over 50 years and often owning dogs in demand at stud, had bitches rarely missing to her males. 

She liked bitches to come and stay, from as early as day 8 and introduce the bitch to the stud daily. 

This served to familiarise the bitch with the dog, but also taught the males patience, just because there was an in season bitch presented didn't mean they could mate her as she likely would say no. 

As the males soon learnt their lady Love would not be whisked away they bided their time, and as they became more experienced also tended to wait until the optimum conception time.  This proved useful in the case of bitches that could not stay and had to visit with their owners, as the studs reaction soon told her whether the bitch was ready.

We perhaps rely to much on science, nature has always managed reproductive functions without too much interference, with us just needing to provide opportunity.

It is good to know what the processes are, but not to rely so much on artificial means of detecting them.

Bitches and dogs that do not act normally or whose reproductive cycles and behaviour are wildly out of kilter perhaps should not be bred from at all, as this may store up reproductive difficulties for the future.

I am sure breeds that now routinely need C sections didn't start off that way for example.  Also why the Kennel Club has fairly rigid rules about the use of AI.

Barbara, what would your approach be if you were doing the more-traditional '2 visits to the stud' method?  Thanks

I completely agree with your post Barbara however I have always struggled to find stud dog owners willing to allow this much time for mating.  My bitch missed on her last season and I have this time managed to find a lovely dog who's owner is more than happy for us to spend as much time as possible letting them get to know each other.  She has also been to meet and play with the dog several times before her season. I am intending to do exactly what you have said and spend a week there allowing them to decide when the time is ready.  My girl is not a slapper (unlike her mother), so I think the odds of her standing before she is ready are minimal.

To be honest a stud dogs owner should facilitate mating and put themselves out for a week, after all they are getting a pretty hefty fee when it is the price of a puppy, and of course they should want to maximise the chances of their dog being successful.

Couldn't agree more Barbara!

In my breed I have had stud owners that went well beyond the call of duty.

Last year Lexi stayed with the stud owner for a Month!!

She had started and stopped her season so we didn't know if she was in or out so she went up as if she were, was found not to be, but was having such a good time with them (she knew and adored the male member of teh household especially) that she stayed until she came in properly and this time was mated on several days until the dog and she lost interest.

They also met us half way at Birmingham on both occasions.

Blimey thats brilliant!  It doesn't seem to be the norm in my breed, wish it were as its something I always struggle with.  Very few seem to take that attitude!

I think maybe we're old school, which probably accounts for that attitude too.  We've been in the breed for 33 years, and going back, it was always the norm.  Our own bitches stayed with trusted friends, and that's just the way it was.  The driving all over the country to pick up other people's bitches and puppies is probably unique to us though - well, my stepdad, he does all the driving!  I think the visiting bitches have a lovely holiday with us, despite the business with the dog. :-)
Even in our breed, the number of people willing to put themselves out by boarding bitches, and be capable of handling them and keeping them safe while they are there, is decreasing as the older breeders retire.  :-(

Possibly with many people who own males perhaps owning more than one in a purely domestic setting, so have not the facilities to board a bitch.

It can be overcome though as arrangements can be made to board ones other males elsewhere, or have the stud and bitch stay together with the bitch owner or a mutual friend.

I have been very grateful fro the driving half way across the country with both bitches and pups as driving half way and back is a lot less tiring.

Having to go long distances to stud or to collect a puppy is the norm in our breed.