So I am talking with the voice of experience.

As I do too.

I have a lovely dog (IMO) JW and 1 RCC, and a bitch with JW, 1CC and 1 RCC. I had an accidental mating on a season when I intended to mate her and had the stud dog booked. She was on her 8th day when my boy got her. They complement each other beautifully for type and conformation. But, they are half brother and sister, and although I know that there are people that would do that mating it is not what I wanted. She had the Alizin injection. Some people said I was mad as there was a chance that I wouldn't be able to breed her again. (It was her first litter and so obviously I would want to keep something from her at some time). But for me it wasn't the right thing to do to allow a potential pregnancy to continue.
As it happens your boy has a high Grade murmur, but also not health tested. So potentially you could be producing bad hips, eyes and heart murmurs. I do not think that this decision to abort could be taken lightly but I would not want pups from that mating.

ouch! put the claws back in cant you, just give her a break, as if she's not giving herself a hard enough time without everyone jumping on her back here too

And yet it is US, the responsible show breeders that get the hard time from the media, being blamed for the sick pedigree dogs out there! When with us this mating would never have happened in the first place.

What would you advise then jazztime?

Probably what I suggested overleaf... keep quiet and knock a fiver off!

jazztime as her 'friend' you ought to be able to appreciate that there comes a time for plain speaking.

To make one mistake is understandable, and once rectified easily forgiven and forgotten.  To make one bad judgement after another, and fail to see the errors until it's all too late is not a simple mistake; it's negligence.

Anybody that breeds, whether show breeders or not, has the responsibility to produce puppies to the best of their ability that are free from defects, fit and healthy and of good temperament. This litter is likely to be none of the above (temperament being the possible exception - I hope!).

> i can totally see why people are put off posting on CD for exactly this reason.

so why join this 'terrible' forum just to make this comment???

> ouch! put the claws back in cant you, just give her a break, as if she's not giving herself a hard enough time without everyone jumping on her back here too, i can totally see why people are put off posting on CD for exactly this reason.

Perhaps you haven't read through many of the thread's on here jazztime and in that case you won't know of the agonies that dedicated breeders went through as a result of 'that' TV programme. Breeding from dogs with no health checks is  what good breeders are fighting against yet someone posts here having done exactly that! Yes I can feel sorry for her having a dog with a heart murmur - but passing on the possibility of this to other owners through sheer impatience or worse(would it really have hurt to have tests done and wait for her bitches next season?) is beyond the pale!

if OP was thinking on that side then she wouldnt be asking for help would she??
there is the chance though that the pups will be clear surely?

OK Jazztime - let's go back to the original post, shall we?

Hi, I am desperate need of help / advice.
I recently bought a 3 yr old male retriever from a private home as they couldnt keep him any longer due to personal circumstances.
He has settled in really well, we all love him and he gets on with all our other dogs, he has mated with one of my girls and we are expecting a litter from that.
He recently developed bad feet so i popped him to the vets, where it was found that he has a grade 6 heart murmur.
I am devasted and havent stopped crying since. I have got him on Vetmedin twice a day and am really unsure as to how his future will pan out
Im really needed help / advice anything anyone can help with to make decisions easier.
I have his best interests at heart, and i know his stud career is ended which is criminal as he is such a great dog.
please help - im at my wits end with worry.
thankyou in advance .

What we have advised the OP might not be what she wants to hear - but it is good valid advice given by people who have been in similar circumstances to the OPs in way or another.  

What would you have us say?  "Oooh yes - lovely puppies - everything will be ok hun - wishing you all the best, blah, blah, blah"???  

What we've said is not nice, I know - but it would be for the best for all concerned - particularly the OP who, instead of looking forward to a litter is going to be worrying herself sick as to whether they will be alright - in addition to worrying about the father too.  Instead of a hectic but enjoyable six to eight weeks looking after pups and mum, she's going to be worried at every little cough/splutter etc etc.

Unless of course she is one of these "keep quiet and knock a few quid off the price for not registering them" greedy breeders - and throughout this thread I have assumed that this is not the case and have given the benefit of the doubt.

So, Jazztime - what is YOUR advice?

there is the chance though that the pups will be clear surely?

But that will not be known until they are ADULT. Who will knowingly pay money for a puppy that may have HD, elbow dysplasia, eye disease and heart disease? Would you? It could end up being one very expensive puppy as far as vets bills go. And why on earth let such pups be born? Why even let the dog mate without having hip scored FIRST? Even not having had the most basic of health checks such as heart? A dog can LOOK healthy without being it, this is why we need extensive tests. I had a Golden who moved really well and looked great. He was hip scored aged 6 and found to have very severe HD, his score was 96 -yet  then had had shown NO symptoms whatsoever. They all came later. Just as the two dogs with heart problems I've had -one was fine until 7 the other until 8, then ended up needing a lot of costly medication daily for life.

There's a chance, but it's a hell of a gamble with other people's lives; the pups might not develop the condition till adulthood, and the new owner will go through total heartbreak. It's incredibly unkind to take that risk.

> if OP was thinking on that side then she wouldnt be asking for help would she??
> there is the chance though that the pups will be clear surely?

Yes they may be clear of murmours but what about the hips? I have 2 dogs with HD and believe me if the breeder had any assets worth seizing I would have taken her to court and sued the pants off her! This litter needs abhorting before some poor unsuspecting puppy owner ends up with a dog with major health problems.

Kind Regards

i have spoken to the breeder in great depth again, his parents are both 10 and very fit and healthy, have no heart problems and are regularly checked by the vet.
She told em to get him checked for Lungworm, something my vet has not mentioned, and some of the symptoms seem like they could fit his condition. This could explain the suddeness of his illness i presume?

Check it out - but you are getting him checked by a cardiologist, are you not?   Prepare for the worst, hope for the best is my strategy.   How far along in pregnancy is your bitch?

You do need to establish what the problem is with his heart,thats a fact. But you still have the major problem of any resulting puppies being born with major health problems. What happens if the owners a couple of yrs down the line inform you that the puppy you bred and sold has major problems? The heartache watching a dog suffer whilst knowing that its breeder cared more about money than producing healthy dogs. Will you be able to fund all the vet costs for each and every dog that is ill due to your use of an untested dog? Own your own house? own a nice car? Then hope and pray you dont sell to someone like me then cos I would take you to the cleaners!!

Kind Regards

A couple of weeks ago one of my cats had to go to the vet to have an abscess treated and some bad teeth removed. Upon arrival at the vets it was found she had heart murmur grade 4. She had shown no symptoms whatsoever. The vet explained there was absolutely no way the heart could be properly assessed without a heart scan as by just listening to it they would not know if it was about to fail or not. A scan was essential to see what the valves etc looked like. Without knowing the real status of the heart, they could not go ahead with the anaesthetic needed to treat her abscess and do the dental. The heart was done under no GA and not even sedation was needed so perfectly safe. It showed her heart was not in failure so she had her treatment and was fine. It's quite possible the same could be done here and then the dog could at least be hip and elbow scored safely. Doesn't solve the problem with the heart future of any pups though.

> i feel she's too far in now to abort,

It is safe and effective to use alizin until 42 days after mating.

When did you get the dog just out of interest and have you had another litter recently ? Was this an 'accidental'mating or was this planned as you we asking back in November for advise on insurance to cover a bitch and the puppies in whelping.

I would urge you to do as most people on here have said get rid of the litter as the potential for the puppies to carry problems is too greater risk for the potential new owners and you,for the possible cost you may have to fork out if they decide to sue you. And foremost for the poor pups if they did have problems as how would you feel knowing that you have let the pups come inot this world knowing that you could have done something about it.

I genuinely have my fingers crossed for you that your boy has treatable lungworm (a major problem in the area I live) so that at least you will get peace of mind as far as he's concerned. 

How far along is your girl?  Of course if she's too far along, as others have said, it'll be too late too abort if it does turn out he has a heart problem but speaking from what I consider a fairly tough person when it comes to the realities of breeding, I personally couldn't have selling a large number of potentially poorly puppies on my conscience.  It is enough of a worry that you may get a phone call a few weeks/months down the line when you are happy with the condition of sire and dam pre-mating but when you know there's a possible problem it'll make you a nervous wreck which I'm sure you could do without?  Nobody wants that stress surely?  I couldn't bear it!

If the worst happens and he comes back with a confirmed bad murmur and it's too late too abort the pups, as horrible as it sounds I would def have all but 1 or 2 of the pups culled and keep the one pup, believe me, you'll be glad you did and then you can go on to plan a mating of your bitch in the future.  It is a horrible thought but your bitch will be none the worse for it and will benefit from not rearing so many pups for when you'd like to mate her in the future.

I wish you the best of luck...

There's a chance, but it's a hell of a gamble with other people's lives; the pups might not develop the condition till adulthood, and the new owner will go through total heartbreak. It's incredibly unkind to take that risk.

I had to put mine and my sisters dog down 5 days before she turned two - because of severe health problems (fits/seizures/breathing problems). The slightest sound she would make in the night I would have to get up and check she was ok - not to mention the medication and regular vet visits. We re-homed her from people who didn't want her. But I tell you having a sick dog is one of the most stressful and heartbreaking things in the world. So I understand that you are worrying about your dog.

But you do have to think about the pups.

The day I made the decision to put Daisy down was one of the worst most heartbreaking days of my life. She was an innocent sweetest thing, but for all the suffering she went through and we went through, she should never have been a pet for anyone.

I think the OP was wanting some support/guidance/sympathy regarding the sick dog /heart murmur. If she hadn't mentioned she was expecting a litter from him the replies she has received may have been different?

I hope the right decision is made xx 

I'd have to agree with those saying you should abort the litter if possible. I am sure as you say that you are devastated about finding your boy has this serious heart murmur at such a young age, but if you allow the litter to be born and sold you will be creating another 8 - 12 families who are more than likely going to go through the heartache you are now facing because the chances are that these puppies will get early heart murmurs too. And that's not even thinking about the hips yet! I lost my 8 year old Cavalier to MVD last year, even though he was from tested stock and a reputable breeder these things can happen, and I am still utterly devastated, just writing that short sentence makes me cry for my loss of him, please don't risk doing this to other families.

Just tagging on to the last poster of this thread and although I don't breed I would have to agree with others who have given their honest opionion to abort the litter.

We have a dog with severe problems, never thought we would get him to six. Told very early on that he should have been returned to the breeder (who unlike those giving you their best advice on this forum, did not  give a dam). It is so unfair to the pups and future owners, even saying you will have them back should they develop problems. To choose your pup, name him, anticipate his arrival to you family, collect him, spending weeks, days and hours with him during his first months and then to find out he has severe probems is heart breaking. Could not return him to an uncertain future, he was our pup we loved him dearly, so he lays beside me, aged 6 feeling like 90, having always had a certain amount of discomfort and it's not going to get any easier. Bloody unfair but especially for him.

i have spoken to the breeder in great depth again, his parents are both 10 and very fit and healthy, have no heart problems and are regularly checked by the vet.

This is at least a little bit of comfort for you then....in amidst this current distressing situation. If his parents are both fit and healthy at 10 years old then it may not automatically suggest an inherited heart problem....?? There may well be some other cause.....

She told em to get him checked for Lungworm, something my vet has not mentioned, and some of the symptoms seem like they could fit his condition. This could explain the suddeness of his illness i presume?

From showing no symptoms at all......to be suddenly "diagnosed" as having a grade 6 heart murmur does seem to be a little odd...?? Yes I think if it was me....I would get him tested for lungworm (especially if his breeder has mentioned it)....and then get a referral/second opinion from a cardiologist to see exactly what you are dealing with.

What was the problem with his feet that initially prompted you to take him to the vet in the first place..??
What is his vaccination status..??
What diet did his previous owners have him on..?? What is he on now..??

Either way if he was my dog I wouldn't have him booster vaccinated again..... please see http://www.canine-health-concern.org.uk/

I hope you find some answers to the problem with your boy....that may help you to think more clearly about the puppies....

Just throwing this into the melting pot....... we very sadly lost our Phoebe some 6 years ago now , ultimately with a heart problem.     Her heart was basically fine, (tested a few times through her life) but she contracted Lyme disease which was diagnosed too late.     The infection had spread to her heart and did irreparable damage before the correct treatment was given.

In this dog's case I doubt it is the cause, as Phoebe had a very high temperature and was lame with it, but just showing that a heart can be damaged by other factors.

Jo

From showing no symptoms at all......to be suddenly "diagnosed" as having a grade 6 heart murmur does seem to be a little odd...??

Unfortunately that's not odd at all but quite common.Usually you have a more severe problem if you go from a zero to a six in a very short space of time, than if it happens gradually.