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Hi, I am desperate need of help / advice.
I recently bought a 3 yr old male retriever from a private home as they couldnt keep him any longer due to personal circumstances.
He has settled in really well, we all love him and he gets on with all our other dogs, he has mated with one of my girls and we are expecting a litter from that.
He recently developed bad feet so i popped him to the vets, where it was found that he has a grade 6 heart murmur.
I am devasted and havent stopped crying since. I have got him on Vetmedin twice a day and am really unsure as to how his future will pan out
Im really needed help / advice anything anyone can help with to make decisions easier.
I have his best interests at heart, and i know his stud career is ended which is criminal as he is such a great dog.
please help - im at my wits end with worry.
thankyou in advance

Was the heart murmur not detected when he was put under anesthetic for the hip and elbow scoring before he was being bred from? If such a severe murmur has occured as quickly as in between this being done and now I would worry I'm afraid. A grade 6 is the most severe murmur there can be. I had a Cavalier with a grade 6 murmur, he went from a zero to a 6 in just a few months but this was when he was 7. He was on medication (both heart medication and diuretics) for the rest of his life and did manage to live to 15 years, 2 months and 2 days so that is the good news -he could still have a lot left in him. I also once had a Golden who developed Dilated Cardiomyopathy when aged 8 and he lived to 11 on medication. Was he not showing any symptoms? Has the vet said what type of heart problem he has?
As for the expected litter -to be honest if the bitch isn't too far gone, if it was my bitch, I'd have her injected with Alizin to abort the pups as it would be very difficult to sell these pups and obviously you don't want this to be passed on to his offspring. 3 is very young indeed for such a severe murmur.
personally i would be seriously worried for the puppies more than the dog, you should of given him the all clear before breeding from him.
How far gone is she?

What decision is it that you need made easier? I hope the vet hasn't suggested he be put to sleep, unless of course he is very poorly & the problem is affecting his quality of life? But by the sounds of it he seemed to be ok apart from his feet.
Before mating him to your bitch you really should have had all the relevent health tests done on both of them, you must now get your bitch tested to ensure she hasn't got a problem either.
You also need to be 100% honest with any puppy buyers.
Is your vet a cardiologist? If not it may be worth finding a vet who is a cardiologist to retest your boy and confirm his grading, sometimes they do get it wrong.
i agree Mariaane i think it would be kinder to terminate..
As others have mentioned - have both dogs had eyes tested and at least hips if not elbows too?
Was this dog mated to yours whilst he was still with previous owners? Did they breed him/from him?
I would suggest they had some idea all was not well and you now have the problem. Have you told them? Their response....
Hard as though it may be, I too think you should terminate the litter, what would happen if you had a litter of pups with heart problems - how could you sell the puppies when sire has such a problem.
I feel for you - as it's not only him you have to worry about.
Hi
Do you have any background history on this dog? Do you have him insured? A phone conversation with his previous vet might uncover some more medical information which could be of benefit to your vet when deciding treatment. Do you suspect he might have been rehomed due to his (likely to be long-term, and expensive) condition?
Did he go back to the breeder to rehome or did he come come direct to you? Either way it might be sensible to advise the breeder of his condition (and to make sure they know he has been rehomed). However if they have no involvement it's entirely possible that he isn't well bred, or from health tested parents but you can check this. As long as you have his KC Registration papers you will be able to look him up on the site to see their results. Also, he should have been hip scored (and elbow I believe) before using at stud and his results would show on the KC site too.
It's unlikely that you would just happen to buy a good male for your bitch, without a lot of research into health and suitability. It does sound as if you've rushed into this and if it isn't too late please think long and hard about allowing the pregnancy to continue. I really hope that you can get him on the right medication and that he lives a long and happy life with you :)
By tooolz
Date 28.02.11 17:17 UTC
Selling the resulting puppies from a dog you now know has a serious fault- will leave you open to being sued under the Sale of Goods Act......
where something must not be sold when you feel it may be unfit for purpose.
By Pedlee
Date 28.02.11 17:21 UTC

Assuming this dog is a Golden Retriever (you say retriever) you could have a look on the Standfast database (
http://www.standfastdata.co.uk/index.html) to see if he is well bred and what tests he/his parents have had done, although it won't show heart problems and this should have been done BEFORE breeding from him.
I have to say I agree with the others, and if possible, I would get the pregnancy terminated.

Shocked that this wasn'[t found out before breeding. Did you not have him checked when you got him by a vet, surely such a severe murmur doesnt happen as quickly as this. Hope his other health results are good. Maybe as others have said termination is the best thing for the pups so that they don't have such a bad murmur either.
Is your vet a cardiologist? If not it may be worth finding a vet who is a cardiologist to retest your boy and confirm his grading, sometimes they do get it wrong.
Aside from all the other issues regarding this mating, unless your Vet is a cardiologist, I don't think you can be sure that this is a correct heart score. With a grade 6 result I would expect the dog to have some symptoms. I would want this dog to go through an 'official' heart scoring session with a recognised cardiologist (and then through all the appropriate hip/elbow/etc tests recommended for the breed).

Personally I would not want a dog bred from even with a grade 1 -especially not in a breed were finding good quality stud dogs with clear hearts and good hip/elbows scores, clear eyes etc is not a problem at all.
Marianne I can't speak for Golden Retrievers but a heart score of '1' is perfectly acceptable in my breed. However, I totally agree about getting this, and all the other relevant tests, done BEFORE the dog is/was used at stud.
hi there, thanks for all the replies. He showed no signs of illness whatsoever. His old owners now say they have never taken him to the vets as his breeder injected him ?!? something i am sure can not be done unless by a vet.
i will be contacting his breeders but i do know they are still doing repeat matings from his parents.
I know that somem puppies who are bornn with Grade 1 murmurs grow out of them so i feel to abort this litter is somewhat drastic, as my vet has informed me that it is highly unlikely that the puppies will be infected, but obviously they will be vet checked at 6 and 8 weeks old .
he has a check up next monday after being on the tablets for a week so i am hopeful he will have improved.
The vet hasnt advised me to PTS but said its an option, one that i am loathed to take as he is so special.
Mum is hip/eye/health tested with no problems.
Dad was booked to have hips done 2 weeks ago but vet had to re-book, then his feet got sore and the rest you know.
I have the feeling that he has had the murmur for a while but they never found it in his previous home as she certaily seemed shocked when i told her about it, but then you never know.
and regards the puppies, it goes without saying that all prospective puppy owners will be made fully aware of the situation with the dad so they can make an informed decision.
By Lokis mum
Date 01.03.11 09:14 UTC
Edited 01.03.11 09:17 UTC
I'm with the others who are advising aborting this litter :( . You say you will advise prospective owners of the puppies - but do you realise that they may not be able to insure the puppies? Insurance companies are beginning to ask about the medical history of parents of pedigree puppies now...
And he isn't hipscored? So this will be a litter from one unscored parent? :(
You say the vet said highly unlikely that the puppies will be infected (I take it you mean unlikely that the puppies will be affected rather than infected) - this is a congenital defect and is hereditary - so how can he say this?
By goldiegirl
Date 01.03.11 09:16 UTC
Edited 01.03.11 09:20 UTC
no as the vets had to cancel and we re-booked but then this all happened.
i do know of many litters that are bred in many different breeds, from one or both parents not being health screened, not saying its right but its a fact that happens.
seems that sometimes asking for help in difficult circumtances brings you under attack
his breeders have informed me that both parents have no heart problems and they have not been informed of any other offpsring being affected by a murmur
By Lokis mum
Date 01.03.11 09:20 UTC
These are difficult circumstances for you - we understand that - but honestly, having this litter will bring you heartbreak, could cost you a lot of money rather than adding to your income - there will be another time, and a better stud for you.
Accidents do happen - we all have them. Its how we deal with them that matters.
By Merlot
Date 01.03.11 09:43 UTC
i do know of many litters that are bred in many different breeds, from one or both parents not being health screened, not saying its right but its a fact that happens.Unfortunatly it does happen but you must understand tha most of us who post on CD are carefull breeders and we do get a little hot under the coller when this happens. We spend a lot of time and money to ensure our breeding stock is the best and producing happy healthy well bred pups. I do not have Goldies so am not sure of the requirements for testing for heart murmers, but I do know that HD and ED are both in the breed and should be checked for prior to any litters being produced. It is too late for you to change that now unless you abort this litter and then try again with better preperation. Obviously it would be foolish to use the same dog again even if he has a good score. (However I think you need to see a cardiologist to determin the full facts) If that is not an option for you and I would find it hard to do, then you MUST make sure that all the pups have been vet checked and you MUST make sure the new owners are aware of the lack of scoring. You must also be prepared to carry the flack if a pup turns out to be dispasic or has a murmer and be very aware of the fact that if you fail to tell them then they may well come back at some future date and expect to want their money back or for you to take the pup/adult back. As long as you are prepared to do these things and to learn from the mistakes you have made this time then you will find CD a geat place for help and advice..if a little harsh at times.
Aileen.
By Jeangenie
Date 01.03.11 09:48 UTC
Edited 01.03.11 10:00 UTC
>seems that sometimes asking for help in difficult circumtances brings you under attack
Just because you don't like the advice given doesn't mean you're under attack. :-( Breeding a litter is a huge responsibility for the whole of the animals' lives, and must be taken extremely seriously. I agree that in your circumstances the Alizin injections are the best course of action. When did the mating take place?
all puppy owners will be made fully aware of the circumstances and will be asked to sign in the contract that they fully understand.
also all puppys will be endorsed which will stop breeding (unless people decide to have unregistered litters which you cant control)
a sharp learning curve i admit, but he appears to be the onyl one affected from all the litters bred from his parents.
how do you expxlain the fact that some pupies are born with murmurs when both parents do not have murmurs?
and also its well known that some pups/dogs grow out of murmurs, i know he will not as its a grade 6 but hope he will have long happy life on vetmedin.
By weimed
Date 01.03.11 10:42 UTC
Edited 01.03.11 10:44 UTC
agree with others . very best thing to do would be to abort the litter asap. if she has passed all her health checks and is a good example of the breed she could go on to have a good healthy litter with a suitable healthy stud dog another time.
It is totally unfair to sell or give away puppies when you know one of the parents has such a serious condition . and heart disease is an inherited conditiion so vet is flying in face of all scientific knowledge if he says otherwise.
I am sure if faced with fluffy 8 week old bundles at a cheap price there would be buyers daft enough to take one but believe me they will come back after your blood if the pup they gave their heart to became ill later regardless of what you tell them at point of sale. faced with a sick dog they have grown to love they will quite rightly blame the breeder who knew the litter was sired by a sick dog and take it out on you
sorry i feel it is totally unethical to sell / give away pups knowing there is such a dreadful disease hanging over them
>how do you expxlain the fact that some pupies are born with murmurs when both parents do not have murmurs?
The same way that some children are born with heart conditions even though their parents are fine. Sometimes bad things happen, and in dogs, where the offspring change hands for money and are considered as 'goods' under the law, it's folly to breed from one that isn't healthy. It leaves you open to all sorts of lawsuits.

Hi , I am just commenting on this post as when i bought my boxer pup we were informed that he had a puppy murmour ! and the breeders vet assured us that it would pass as both parents were tested 0. In the contract we signed with the breeder it stated that " if the murmour did not pass at his next vet visit, that she would accept full responsibility for the pup and that we could return him and recieve a full refund" As a buyer if the murmour was there at the next vet visit i would have definatley without having second thoughts returned the pup as i made it fully clear that i wished to show the pup. Luckily for us he has turned out perfect and has a clean bill of health :) This was just one pup out of her litter of 8. You could end up with all your pups back if the buyers are like me. Endorsing the healthy pups sounds good , but what about the possibly unhealthy ones they will have to grow up with possibly being on medication for the rest of thier lives :( at the cost of the new owners ? would you consider keeping all pups so it just down to you to pay for their health care rather than pass the responsibility on to others ?
how do you expxlain the fact that some pupies are born with murmurs when both parents do not have murmurs?Because it is two separate conditions! Chances are ALL these puppies will be murmur free, but will then develop it as they grow older. Puppy murmurs normally disappear with age, murmurs acquired as adult tend to get worse, not better.
You need to find out WHAT condition this dog has. Subaortic stenosis is known in Goldens as is Dilated Cardiomyopathy. And yes, good breeders will often give their puppy buyers heart certificates of the parents -certainly I have that for my Golden from when I bought him. Plus of coruse current eye test certs, hip scores and elbow scores.
What do you do if dad's hip score comes back terrible once done?
These puppies should not be born, and THIS is a thread that Jemima needs to read to understand that it is NOT the responsible show breeders that are causing problems in pedigree dogs.
>how do you expxlain the fact that some pupies are born with murmurs when both parents do not have murmurs?
But how do they know neither parent has a murmur, when they seem surprised that your 3 year old they recently sold you has a grade 6 murmur? Have they been tested by a cardio expert?
M.
well he wont be having his hips done now will he as he wont be used again! plus i dont want to put his heart under any more strain than is necesary.
sorry dont know who you are refering too about the show breeders thread
By tooolz
Date 01.03.11 11:41 UTC
Marianne is absolutely right.
Comparing puppy flow murmurs which often right themselves and adult murmurs is like comparing apples and oranges.
Flow murmurs are developmental and caused by the switch over from placental circulation to pulmonary ( puppy lung) circulation.
Adult murmurs are cause by diseased, dystrophied or damaged openings/valves of an otherwise normal heart.
Puppies bred from an adult with serious valve or opening thickening will only show symptoms of this condition as the heart matures........
NOT at 6-8 weeks.
goldiegirl
You bought a dog with little or no knowledge of his background and without waiting for the results of breed recommended testing have used him on your bitch. You are trusting to luck that the puppies will be unnaffected by a heart condition, you have no knowledge of his hip and elbow scores and you can give no reassurance to the puppy buyers of his family health status. In this regard I find your actions to be irresponsible and callous and I wonder what motivates you to continue the pregnancy.
Puppy buyers are encouraged to buy only from health tested parents and in an ideal world there should be no market for puppies such as these. Well informed potential owners will not take a risk on your pups and that ought to be enough to dissuade you from continuing. If your girl is good enough to be bred from then do not risk her health for this litter. If you are motivated by profit then I urge to to have a read of the threads on Champdogs which discuss the cost of breeding and raising a litter. You might also find it helpful to read what lengths some owners will go to once they realise they have been misled by a breeder about the health of their puppy. Breeders of pedigree dogs have a duty to the long term health and wellbeing of their breed. Breeders such as you are adding to the problem and are damaging the breed you care so much about.
By Boody
Date 01.03.11 12:32 UTC
You bought a dog with little or no knowledge of his background and without waiting for the results of breed recommended testing have used him on your bitch. You are trusting to luck that the puppies will be unnaffected by a heart condition, you have no knowledge of his hip and elbow scores and you can give no reassurance to the puppy buyers of his family health status. In this regard I find your actions to be irresponsible and callous and I wonder what motivates you to continue the pregnancy.
Couldn't agree more and for the OP to now be indignant and claim she is being attacked further knarks me as noone made her post on here and noone is forcing her to continue with the pregnancy, yes these things do happen but if you pride yourself on morals there is only one course of action you can take. I know I couldn't live with myself if I bought a whole litter into this world knowing that they could become seriously ill by the time they are 3.
duly noted - thanks for the attack.
i have been breeding for some years now and have made an error in judgement, something that will not be repeated.
how reassuring to know that none of you who are so quick to slate others have made no mistakes in your breeding time!
perhaps i should have kept my own council, something i will be doing from now on i think
also all puppys will be endorsed which will stop breeding
This made me smile. :) So it's OK for you to buy a dog with no knowledge and use him to breed without having any health tests done, but you think that it's OK for you to endorse the pups to stop other people doing the same??? :) :) Interesting values......
By Lokis mum
Date 01.03.11 12:36 UTC
> all puppy owners will be made fully aware of the circumstances and will be asked to sign in the contract that they fully understand.
> also all puppys will be endorsed which will stop breeding (unless people decide to have unregistered litters which you cant control)
> a sharp learning curve i admit, but he appears to be the onyl one affected from all the litters bred from his parents.
> how do you expxlain the fact that some pupies are born with murmurs when both parents do not have murmurs?
> and also its well known that some pups/dogs grow out of murmurs, i know he will not as its a grade 6 but hope he will have long happy life on vetmedin.<
The circumstances will be that:-
(1) you allowed a mating with an un-health tested dog -
even though you intended to test, you hadn't tested before the mating took place(2) You knew that the stud dog suffers from Grade 6 heart murmer once the pregnancy was confirmed, but took no steps to stop the pregnancy.
(3) Although you may ask puppy owners to sign a contract that they understand the situation
(which means that they may be refused insurance if such a condition occurs) such contracts prove difficult to uphold.
Can you really afford to take such risks? You now know that your boy should be okay on medication which is excellent news - have you arranged to have him neutered to ensure that he cannot mate again?
Let me tell you what happened to me within the last month. On 19th Jan, I lost my beloved OH - just as our 6 year old lab bitch came into season. In addition to our oldie Thor (who was neutered years ago) we have an 8month old lab puppy dog, Odin. It had been intended that Freya was spayed last October but wasn't because OH became ill.
Three weeks ago, within three minutes Freya managed to open three doors and get out into the garden where Odin was playing - and bingo! They were tied. What would you have done? Both pedigree labs, excellent lines which would have complemented the other
BUT Freya is 6 years old, has never had a litter and, due to Adrian's illness and not enough walks, is a little overweight. And Odin is 81/2 months old and is far too young to be hip and elbow scored. Would you take the risks? I decided not to - I couldn't risk losing Freya or the costs of a Ceasarian - nor the risks of Odin's scores when they are done of being unsatisfactory. So she has had the Alizen injections - with no ill-effects.
So I am talking with the voice of experience.
i totally take o board everything that has been said and sorry to blast back, im so upset by all this, moreso because my boy could die any time.
yes i should have had his checked first but i cant change that now, i feel she's too far in now to abort, ill take a view on pups at that time and if needed will do what is necessary.
yes i should have had his checked first but i cant change that now, i feel she's too far in now to abort
So you're going to pass on your mistakes to up to 12 other families to have the worry and expense?????? YOU CAN change it now and take responsibility for what you've done and that would morally be the responsible thing to do. :(
So I am talking with the voice of experience. As do I. I had an accidental mating last year from a dog who had not been hip scored or eye tested -and whose temperament means he is not suitable for breeding. (Just as important as health -you have to have BOTH health and temperament, just one is not good enough.) The bitch had the Alizin injections.
By tooolz
Date 01.03.11 12:50 UTC
Part of what you are feeling right now is guilt for what you may be bringing to others in the future.
You are devastated...the owners of any affected pups from this litter will be equally devastated...or is your pain greater than others?
Do the right thing and make up for your mistake.
By tooolz
Date 01.03.11 12:51 UTC
> So I am talking with the voice of experience.
>
DITTO !! :-(
By jogold
Date 01.03.11 13:01 UTC
This will sound hard but these pups might not survive being born and it might be better to have them put to sleep when their born to save them from suffering later.
>i feel she's too far in now to abort
How far on is her pregnancy?
Less distressing for all to abort now than put newborn puppies to sleep.
By Merlot
Date 01.03.11 13:08 UTC

Not sure when your bitch mated but Alizim can only be given up to 45 after mating. So it may be too late for this course of action.
It is all well and good to slate someone for mistakes/lack of knowledge but the deed has been done and apart from culling pups, (Not to be recomended in my book but others may feel differently) I do not know what the answer is. I suppose you will just have to do the best you can and keep in very close contact with your puppy buyers. Be very very carefull who you let them go to as unfortunatly because they are not as well bred as they could be you may find you have the slightly less savoury buyers as the best ones will be looking for better health tested parents. All you can do now if it is too late for the Alizim is to hope for a small litter and be upfront with your buyers. The suggestion someone made of keeping all the pups yourself is not a viable one. in a large gundog breed you may easily get 10-12 pups and no one can bring that many up properly. It would be very foolish to try unless you had loads of land and helpers. A non starter if ever there was one !
I do hope you get the dog sorted and he has a long and happy life. I hope the news is better for him.
This has been a very hard lesson to learn, yes we have all made mistakes and we have learned from them, hopefully you will do the same.
I am sure it is something you will never do again.
Aileen
By weimed
Date 01.03.11 13:19 UTC
if its too late to abort the litter then I would seriously consider having all but 2 of the litter pts at birth and those 2 you rear you keep as your own pets. far better that then potentially up to 10 or more devestated furious new owners later on. and danger that some of those owners breed off their dogs and increase the problem to further generations because unless you sell them ready neutered you cannot guarentee they will not reproduce.

Can't help but have a feeling the OP will come back and say the bitch is 46 days gone.....

Hi Merlot , it was me who suggested keeping them , just as others were advising to abort , which the lady didnt seem keen .I just thought that it would have been a way for her not pass on unhealthy pups without aborting. x
> You are devastated...the owners of any affected pups from this litter will be equally devastated...or is your pain greater than others?
>
Completely agree Tooolz
>Not sure when your bitch mated but Alizim can only be given up to 45 after mating.
That was why I asked ...
7yrs ago i brought a 8wk old puppy - took to the vet and it had a grade 6 murmer, a long story i wont go into but i chose to return the puppy. It was heartbreaking and i cried for a year.
Ive since become good friends with the breeder who informs me on his progress, he has pulmonary or pulmonic stenosis (sp) theres another valve involved as well.
Please dont put your buyers through this.
ouch! put the claws back in cant you, just give her a break, as if she's not giving herself a hard enough time without everyone jumping on her back here too, i can totally see why people are put off posting on CD for exactly this reason.
By tooolz
Date 01.03.11 13:32 UTC
Edited 01.03.11 13:40 UTC
jazztime ....YOU buy them all then !
Not too late for the OP to post on a site more 'sympathetic' to situations like this appalling case.
One where the response would be something like...."dont tell anyone and knock a fiver off!"
By Lokis mum
Date 01.03.11 13:33 UTC
> <SPAN class=htt>In Response to</SPAN> jazztime ouch! put the claws back in cant you, just give her a break, as if she's not giving herself a hard enough time without everyone jumping on her back here too, i can totally see why people are put off posting on CD for exactly this reason<
Believe me - I haven't even begun to sharpen my claws! Whilst sympathising with someone who has made an error in her breeding - hoping that everything would be okay - and sharing my own experiences, I have proffered my opinion as to what I would - and in fact have - done in circumstances not dissimilar to those of the OP (and here, I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt and assuming that this was not a planned mating.
If I thought for one moment that this was a deliberate "on the cheap" mating, I really would be giving her a very hard time ...I'm not renowned for my tact in such circumstances!
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