If they didn't take them, many of the puppy farmers would simply shoot them or dump them. Either way doesn't prevent the puppy farmers from replacing them.

If the puppy farms killed their (to them) useless dogs and the public was made AWARE of it, maybe the general public would finally get the point to not buy from places that sell puppies from puppy farms. Now many will think it's okay, and the poor parents -well they get given good retirement homes in the end, don't they, so all ends well.

Give me the choice of a Lab from Ireland or a Staff cross from England, I'm sorry but I would take the Lab every time (apologies to Staff owners, just my preference) maybe this is why the Irish ex breeding dogs etc do so well over here, maybe our choices aren't that good, just a thought

That's exactly one of my points Carrington!

>I'm certain that if our top politicians were to be presented with the appalling evidence of commercial puppy farming that they too would be as sickened as we are..?? Is it that the evidence doesn't get in front of the right people...?? Is it that they just don't know about it...?? Is it that governments either directly or indirectly receive some lucrative income stream from puppy farmers...??

Or is it that their hands are tied by European law?

I agree Perry as people who contact breed rescue are after a dog of that breed and so there is a demand for these dogs. Some people wish to take on a rescue rather than a breeder for many reasons and so it is a choice people make. I have done both and will probably get other dogs via both ways.

We deal with Lab crosses as well and these are in most cases are more difficult to rehome.

The glut of Staffie crosses in rescues through the UK is very unfortunate and I for one would not want to take one on again my own personal preference. I know a few Staffies but do not want to own the breed the same way I would not want to own a Poodle or a Golden Retriever for example. They are just not a breeds I would like to own although I like all dogs.

A change in Law will only change the situation and by ignoring and letting the dogs be euthanased in the Pounds will not stop the traffic of dogs or indeed help rehome the staffie crosses in the rescue centres in the UK.

Someone mentioned lobbying MPs about puppy farming and this is the campaign that Puppy Love is running at the moment. They are asking people to write to their MP asking for a ban on the sale of puppies in pet shops and through dealers. There is a template letter on the Puppy Love site. Several people have now had positive responses with the MPs contacting the minister concerned.

http://www.puppylovecampaigns.org/whatyoucando.shtml

By Councils who in the UK are responsible for licensing dog breeders and prosecuting unlicensed ones doing their job according to the regulations and Acts governing dog breeding.  For the introduction of licensing dog breeding in the Irish Republic. For the introduction of the new licensing dog breeding regulations to go through the Welsh Assembly consultation period without being watered down by hobby breeders backed by the Kennel Club who did lobby the Welsh Assembly because they felt the new regulations were too strict!!!! Consequently they too maybe required to be licensed, sorry but so many small breeders end up by being large breeders, puppy farmers they  breed too many litters and they too find the route to dealers and pet shops.  Dog breeding needs to be curtailed from all angles, too many people are breeding dogs and too many dogs are too easilly obtained and discarded. Regulation and tracabilty is desperately needed I sincerely hope the WA does not weeken under pressure from the KC and the same regulations are introduced in the rest of the UK as soon as possible. (Now I will duck)!!   

By Councils who in the UK are responsible for licensing dog breeders and prosecuting unlicensed ones doing their job according to the regulations and Acts governing dog breeding.  For the introduction of licensing dog breeding in the Irish Republic. For the introduction of the new licensing dog breeding regulations to go through the Welsh Assembly consultation period without being watered down by hobby breeders backed by the Kennel Club who did lobby the Welsh Assembly because they felt the new regulations were too strict!!!! Consequently they too maybe required to be licensed, sorry but so many small breeders end up by being large breeders, puppy farmers they  breed too many litters and they too find the route to dealers and pet shops.  Dog breeding needs to be curtailed from all angles, too many people are breeding dogs and too many dogs are too easilly obtained and discarded. Regulation and tracabilty is desperately needed I sincerely hope the WA does not weeken under pressure from the KC and the same regulations are introduced in the rest of the UK as soon as possible. (Now I will duck)!!   

Can someone please (politely) explain to me why rescue dogs from Ireland are brought to the UK?  This is not meant to be antagonistic in any way - I'm just curious.

Well... you've heard is straight from the horse's mouth - are you any the wiser Fleabag??

Well I knew 'us dog folk' could be passionate, opinionated and direct!!! :-O

I certainly hadn't started the thread to cause argument but appreciate factual discussion can introduce conflict and appreciate the restraint I suspect some contributors have demonstrated.  ;-)

I'd like to say some of the posts have surprised me but I'm far too old and wise already........

Now I guess I'm just older and wiser?! :-D

Thank you all for your input. :-)

> If the puppy farms killed their (to them) useless dogs and the public was made AWARE of it, maybe the general public would finally get the point to not buy from places that sell puppies from puppy farms. Now many will think it's okay, and the poor parents -well they get given good retirement homes in the end, don't they, so all ends well.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make in the other rescue dog thread Marianne. As sad as it is to know this would happen if the dogs weren't taken by rescue the problem is self perpetuating - get rescues to take the "useless" dogs and it gives room for more young dogs to take their place in the puppy farms :-( By not taking them the breeders would have to dispose of them theirselves and if the public were aware of the numbers, frequency and method of disposal there would be a huge outcry and the puppy farmers would be on the end of it.

We constantly mention the damage done to good breeders reputations by that TV programme - and if the public can reach the conclusions they have over that just imagine the damage that would be caused to PFs if the public knew the poor dogs were being shot or dumped to make way for younger breeding dogs who will meet the same fate in a few short years. It could well spell the end of Puppy Farming being a profitable business. Not a nice thought to know what would be the fate of a whole generation of PF breeding stock but it could help to prevent the next generation, the one after that and so on ad infinitum suffering the same fate in a never ending cycle.

Hi Jemima, never spoken to you on CD before, but I would repeat my initial question. Are you involved with the forthcoming (pre- Crufts) Good Dog Bad Dog programme. I am very interested to know :-)

if the public can reach the conclusions they have over that just imagine the damage that would be caused to PFs if the public knew the poor dogs were being shot or dumped to make way for younger breeding dogs who will meet the same fate in a few short years. It could well spell the end of Puppy Farming being a profitable business. Not a nice thought to know what would be the fate of a whole generation of PF breeding stock but it could help to prevent the next generation, the one after that and so on ad infinitum suffering the same fate in a never ending cycle.

Harley, I totally agree, but that is in a perfect world - which is what we are not in, and so til then we just have to help as many unwanted animals as we can, be it from puppy farm, breeder (good or bad) or just one that has found itself without a home - albeit missing, unwanted etc etc... 

But that's what needs to be done to stop the cycle, or it never will. We have to ask ourselves just how much we really want the trade to stop.

But that's what needs to be done to stop the cycle, or it never will. We have to ask ourselves just how much we really want the trade to stop.
Yep and look at it objectively and not emotionally.

Ok I will ask a question.

Betty we got from Lab rescue. She was 'dumped' by her initial owners .

We took her on and she is from a known Puppy Farmer in the NW.

So should rescues ignore these dogs as well because this is what the rescues deal with as well as the BYB dogs into rescue via all the people that buy these dogs..

So where do rescues draw the line ?

Lets stop rescues and that will solve the problem ?

> By not taking them the breeders would have to dispose of them theirselves and if the public were aware of the numbers, frequency and method of disposal there would be a huge outcry and the puppy farmers would be on the end of it.

But there have been documentaries about puppy farming and one I watched mentioned a pile of dogs found in a ditch on the farm, ex breeding stock they reckoned and some pups that didn't make it or got too old to sell.

It happens, there have been programmes about it and it still happens.

I think I'd rather see an ex breeding bitch rehomed and having a chance of a loving home  than ending up in a mass grave - the puppy farmers don't care what happens to them, either solution is fine with them.

> I think I'd rather see an ex breeding bitch rehomed and having a chance of a loving home  than ending up in a mass grave - the puppy farmers don't care what happens to them, either solution is fine with them.

Hear hear! :)
By the way most of the rescues coming from the city death-pounds in Ireland are not purebred. Yes, there are a few in there - Rotties, Boxers, some terriers, setters etc - but the rest are crosses.

> So where do rescues draw the line

They have to draw the line somewhere :) Why not keep just to the UK where there are more than enough rescue dogs to cope with. Until EVERY unwanted dog/stray is ether rehomed or in first class kennels with a good quality of life - that's where the line should be drawn IMO. Do all the Staffie X's etc in rescue kennels have a good quality of life ?? If not, why are they ignored in favour of 'more deserving' cases from abroad ??

When I was a child there were no rescue centres.  Families had little spare cash and few could afford to keep dogs.  They would often be let out in the street to scavange and were fed table scraps and raw bones at home.  Families had no money for vets or neutering and if a bitch produced pups, those who had no homes were put into a bucket of water.  There was no social security system.  If you didn't work, you had no money!

Back then, pedigree dogs were bred by people with knowledge, staff and land.  Only the wealthy owned pedigree dogs because the average family couldn't afford one.  There was just one family in my road with a Cocker - golly they were wealthy!  Possibly another 3 families had a mongrel.  The other 50 families had no dog at all.

My family had little money, but after much nagging from me, they were given a mongrel puppy for me.  I loved Shandy, but children used to tease him on their way home from school and eventually he bit one of them.  My Mother felt he was unsafe - yea I know but that's the way that it was then! - and he was taken to the Vet to be pts.  Nobody else would have taken him on and there was no rescue kennel to dump him in.

By the time I was a late teen and a Veterinary Nurse, the RSPCA had started just a handful of rescue centres all over the country.  They would take in a few dogs but would very carefully assess them and any dog with anything other than an excellent temperament would be pts - by having electrical clips on its ears and zapped!  And this wasn't THAT long ago!  Dogs bought into the Vets to be pts, if they were fit and amenable - even at 18 years old I was objective rather than emotional about them - I would ask if I could find them a home instead.

Gradually over the years, more and more rescue kennels sprung up - some big, some small personal set ups.  Families had more disposable income, the unemployed were given money and dogs became more available.  And if it didn't work out or the family changed their mind, they could always dump their responsibility on the local rescue doorstep.

Now 40 years later anyone who owns a bitch, with little knowledge and fewer facilities thinks it's their right to produce puppies if they want to.  Most people, working or not, seem to have enough money to afford a pedigree puppy if they want one.  If they get fed up with it, then they'll take it to a rescue kennel, although it's not that easy at the moment as many are just too full to accept anymore and so vets are putting many fit, healthy animals to sleep, thinking that it's a better fate than being shut in kennels for months or being dumped on a motorway.  Easy come and easy go just like an armchair!

Of course there are some genuine cases where family circumstances change and thankfully responsible breeders, often with the help of their breed rescue, do their best to find suitable homes for these dogs.  But the rescue kennel that I'm involved with is full of badly bred, unsocialised dogs that need special owners to retrain them if they are going to settle with a 'normal' family.  Those people are few and far between and so the hooligan dogs spend months if not years in kennels, sometimes being placed for a few days before coming back to the kennel again.  To me it would sincerely be kinder for most of these dogs to be pts rather than spend months in all but isolation - like the lady that somebody else mentioned that tries to look after 26 rescue dogs! 

Things have got out of hand, like many other situations in our society.  Just allowing people to pass the responsibility of their dog onto someone else isn't the answer.  Doing what we're doing isn't actually helping.  The problem is getting bigger and bigger every year.  Something has to change!

Yes we do have to draw the line somewhere, but puppy farms won't stop without a fight and then some, so maybe there has to be a rethink with breeders too, not breeding to 'save this line or that' because even though most people prefer pedigree dogs crossbreeds are just as precious, I have one of each and so I know!

So to get the puppy farmers to stop breeding maybe reputable breeders have to change too - a hard decision but if what we want is less strays and dogs in rescue then the breeders be it reputable or puppy farmers have to sit up and take notice of this vicious circle :( Make dogs more difficult to get hold of, that way they are less likely to be put onto the streets!

But that's what needs to be done to stop the cycle, or it never will. We have to ask ourselves just how much we really want the trade to stop

We all do and that includes the reputable breeders,and if they won't reduce their litters then how can we expect irresponsible PF's to reduce theirs.....

And I know there are lots of reputable breeders out there, I am not getting at them, but maybe everyone has to start thinkng differently, but until then, rescues will continue because dogs need homes.................

And I know there are lots of reputable breeders out there,
Producing nothing like the numbers of puppies that the bybs and puppy farms are!  And if the responsible breeders don't keep the lines going, then there won't be any pedigree dogs in 50 years time.

Excellent post, West Coast - you have summed up the situation perfectly.

We all do and that includes the reputable breeders,and if they won't reduce their litters then how can we expect irresponsible PF's to reduce theirs

Any breeder worth their salt will not be churning out litters and they will always endeavour to have any puppy sold back and rehome theirselves.

Also the day the right is removed from me to choose a breed that suits my lifestyle will be the day i choose to no longer keep dogs.
I do not say people should not be allowed to keep crossbreeds anymore than anyone should frown upon people who choose to keep pedigrees after all a dog is a dog!

> So to get the puppy farmers to stop breeding maybe reputable breeders have to change too - a hard decision but if what we want is less strays and dogs in rescue then the breeders be it reputable or puppy farmers have to sit up and take notice of this vicious circle :-( Make dogs more difficult to get hold of, that way they are less likely to be put onto the streets!

And that is how you end up with the situation in my breed where once there were around 400 puppies with plenty of choice of bloodlines registered with the Kennel club, 20 years ago when I got involved with the breed we were down to 150 of pups bred almost entirely by dedicated breed enthusiasts, and last year just 33.

All through this time there has been a certain number bred by puppy farmers, Back Yard breeders and other casual breeders.

We now probably have more puppies bred by the latter than by good breeders, where the breed is barely surviving, and the gene pool kept healthy and viable at great expense with frequent imports from abroad.  The majority of new people in the breed that show will not breed because of the cost and responsibility.  Puppy farmers/BYB have no such scruples and breed to take up the slack left by good breeders keeping breeding to a minimum.

I put the breeds name in Google for puppies and come up with at lest half a dozen litters all bred by PF or BYB, and guess what costing no more than £50 less than from a reputable breeder, not KC registered and not a Health test in generations, all having some good blood in the background thank God as temperaments coming into rescue are mainly typical, but it only needs a few bad/unhealthy onces to start turning up and a whole breeds reputation goes down the pan.

The additional problem is that there are fewer good people that support breed rescue to help the poor unfortunate dogs.

Pat and other well meaning folk would like to see more Red Tape for anyone that breeds more than once in a blue moon, so that even good small scale breeders get caught up in legislation (even those like me who generally breed one litter a year will have years where litters are born less than 12 months apart, and other years when it is longer), another disincentive for the ethical responsible owner not to breed.  Many unsympathetic councils will not License anyone without 'Change of Use' of the breeders home to business premises, which may nto even be granted for most homes.

It seems that eventually with more regulation only 'Clean regulated Puppy Farms' or the rich breed enthusiast will breed dogs at all.

A breeder like my mentors (sadly now gone) that devoted decades of their lives to the breed did nto breed in their entire lifetime in dogs the number of pups the average puppy farm churns out each year.

> And I know there are lots of reputable breeders out there,
> Producing nothing like the numbers of puppies that the BYB's and puppy farms are!  And if the responsible breeders don't keep the lines going, then there won't be any pedigree dogs in 50 years time.

Such breeders are very careful who can have their puppies (often get criticised for it) as it is not in their interest for homes to not work out, because they will have to pick up the pieces and take the dogs back, increasingly into domestic situations that are not ideal for housing incomers, so often requiring the returned dog to be kennelled at breeders cost.

> But there have been documentaries about puppy farming and one I watched mentioned a pile of dogs found in a ditch on the farm, ex breeding stock they reckoned and some pups that didn't make it or got too old to sell.
>

Maybe the public thought it was a rare situation just relevant to a particular puppy farm - if this was a regular occurrence with all PFs killing off their unwanted stock I am sure people would be horrified and make as much fuss as they did after the PDE programme. If one TV programme can make such a difference to people's attitudes to pedigree dogs then surely they would be even more aghast at seeing PFs killing their dogs. As it stands a lot of people who do realise the conditions on a PF think they are doing the right thing by taking a puppy or a dog that is past it's sell by date - they see it as rescuing a dog from a life of misery but don't see the wider implication of another dog taking it's place and regenerating the misery for yet more dogs.

We are all horrified by needless suffering - and sadly Joe Public en masse responds more to horrific acts than it does to any other approach :-(

Make dogs more difficult to get hold of, that way they are less likely to be put onto the streets!

One of the biggest changes I would like to see first is for the sale of puppies (in fact all furries big and small) to be banned from the big (and not so big) commercial retail outlets. If the sale of puppies (and other sentient beings) were to be banned in pet shops and pet stores...then surely there wouldn't be such a huge demand on the "production lines"....??
   
If there wasn't such a demand from commercial retail outlets....then who will the puppy farmers (and other small furry producers) sell to then...?? If they had to sell direct from their own premises....and not be provided with the air of respectibility provided by the pet shops....who in their right mind would buy a puppy from them....if they actually saw with their own eyes the manner in which the puppy (or small furry) had been born and raised...??

You just wouldn't do it would you..?? You might grab a puppy on the way out with the intention of rescuing it....but then you would be straight on the phone....to any authority that would listen... and screaming blue murder that something needs to be done immediately to get that god-forsaken place shut down...! :(

FreedomOfSpirit

I agree with what  you have written but if it was that easy then believe me it would have happened years ago.
Of course puppies (all furries big and small) should not be sold from a pet shop or dealer. Plans are afoot to lobby MPs as I write and have been ongoing for years. The problem lies with the Office of Fair Trading and free trade and organisations like the Pet Care Trust who favour puppies being sold from Pet Shops.  MandyD placed a link to puppylove campaigns which has a campaign on going right now.
Swindon Council drew up some very good conditions to restrict and to make it more difficult for businesses to sell puppies through pet shops and dealers but that is just one Council that has taken the iniative.

Even finding a puppy farm with the dogs and puppies living in terrible conditions will not automatically be closed down in fact the opposite is likely, if premises are found operating unlicensed then the likelyhood is that the Council will issue a dog breeders licence to the individual and may or maynot dependent upon the circumstances at the time take the puppy farmer to Court for unlicensed dog breeding. Do not think regardless of the welfare state of the dogs that the RSPCA will be involved or be the first to investigate.  They will not, they will not get involved since this working relationship between the RSPCA and local Councils (called a joined up approach) when there is a report of unlicensed dog breeding/puppy farming the RSPCA stand back and all the investigation and prosecution becomes the responsibilty of the local Council.  Most people believe that if a puppy farm is found and animal welfare is being compromised and the puppy farmer/dog breeder  is not abiding by the Animal Welfare Act that the RSPCA would be the first to be called to attend but no that is not the case, unbelievable I know but that is the reality. If it is a Welsh Council that the puppy farmer is in then I am afraid to say that the Councils are extremely lax in taking action it has to be a very serious case for them to take any action and even when they do it will be on a very minor issue even though the puppy farmer has not complied with even the even the very basic of good animal husbandry and has contravened on major issues of animal welfare, it is very likely those offences will be overlooked and the puppy farmer taken to Court on a lesser charge such as unlicensed dog breeding.

Believe me it is not easy to get good fair justice for the dogs and puppies caught up in this despicable trade. The RSPCA are not involved, the Councils are at best often very lax even to the point of doing nothing at all if the premises are already licensed (even when they are given evidence of very poor conditions and animal welfare issues).  Where can campaigners such as myself and Puppy Love Campaigns turn to we have already contributed to the Welsh Assembly and fingers crossed that legislation will be passed but will Councils in Wales act accordingly, time will tell but we certainly will be keeping a very close eye on the Councils and report back to the Welsh Assembly of their failings as we have in the past if they do not.             

Oh how I agree with this one.  Problem is that the real story of how the pups are bred is sanitised by removing the point of sale elsewhere.

A bit like the sanitised wrapped meat in supermarkets versus seeing the carcases hung in the butchers or jointed and very recognisable for what what they are.

Also having to meet and deal with individual buyers not only would put them up to scrutiny but also require more time and staff to do it, making it less profitable.

I find it time consuming and exhausting dealing with puppy buyers but I gladly do ti and enjoy seeing them several times to foster a positive relationship between us for the puppies benefit.

I think banning the sale through retail outlets and dealers would be the single most positive step in reducing Puppy farming.

I don't breed or show.
It may be a very simplistic idea but after reading about tightening up licencing rules which may help the situation regarding P/F but would impact unfairly on 'good' breeders.
Would it be feasible to have a humoungous licence fee but then to either have exemptions or nominal amounts on production of proof that the breeder or the affix either shows to a resonable level (NOT companion show level) or competes to a similar level in any of the other disciplines, ie agility, working trials, field trials HTM etc.
This wouldn't penalise the breeder who rarely shows but can produce puppies that others go on to show etc. while hitting the P/Fs in the pocket.
I realise that it would have no effect on 'fluffy-puppy' bybs but its just a thought.
Chris

Hi Jemima, never spoken to you on CD before, but I would repeat my initial question. Are you involved with the forthcoming (pre- Crufts) Good Dog Bad Dog programme. I am very interested to know :-)

No, nothing to do with me. I understand it is now called "How to Buy A Puppy" and airs March 13th on More4.

Jemima

Ah thanks, I'd heard about it and wasn't too sure when likely to be shown. I shall keep my eyes peeled :-)

So let me get this straight then.....

Loose Hierarchy seems to be.....

Members of Parliament
Office of Fair Trading and Free Trade - would be surprised if they would be able to help with animal welfare issues...they're too busy with the big banks and utility companies..??
APGAW Associate Parliamentary Group for Animal Welfare
Members of the public are not able to attend APGAW meetings unless specifically invited by the Chairman but they can ask their MP to attend if they are concerned about an area of animal welfare.

Hmmmmmm...?? A certain Monty Python Movie is coming to mind... :) All talk...no action....

Pet Care Trust - who favour puppies being sold from pet shops
("Quality assured" pet shops on their website - http://www.petcare.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=734&Itemid=218 )
Pet Care Trust give out accolades like "Retailer of the year" who must be able to demonstrate  "Growth in like for like profit over a three year period" and "Supplier of the year award" - who must be able to demonstrate "Growth in like for like profit over a three year period"

"The PCTA has a charitable arm, the Pet Care Trust, whose objectives include educating the public in all aspects of responsible pet ownership, by providing information such as pet care leaflets through its members, or from the website, and engaging with policy and lawmakers on animal health and welfare issues.

Hmmmmmmmmm....?? What about educating their producers and dealers in responsible pet ownership..??

Then we have 
RSPCA - (Hooray...at last....someone who understands...??) who has a "joined up" approach with
Local Council who in turn.....has powers to grant a licence (incoming revenue)......or....prosecute for not having a licence (outgoing cost) What to do...what to do...??

From the RSPCA website
Reporting cruelty checklist

You can make a real difference
As a direct consequence of public action, hundreds of successful RSPCA prosecutions are made each year and thousands of animals are saved from further suffering.

If in doubt always contact us and set your mind at rest.

http://www.rspca.org.uk/allaboutanimals/helpandadvice/reportinganimalsindistress/crueltychecklist

I think banning the sale through retail outlets and dealers would be the single most positive step in reducing Puppy farming.

Me too Brainless.....The retail outlets and dealers provide an ill-afforded respectability.....at a cost to the vast majority of people who DO actually care about animal welfare.

I have been reading here with interest what the rescues in UK says about taking dogs from Ireland, NON PROFIT, NO FEE, yet if you look at their websites they charge up to £180 per dog to rehome?, correct me if i'm wrong, but just check the websites.

Yes you will find with some the price goes up if it is what they call a star dog to £200 and as far as I know they do not neuter the dogs of course some may come in already spayed or neutered but it is a lot of money to ask. Some of these rescues are rescues in name only by that I mean they are businesses really involved in  selling dogs and puppies under the guise of rescue. Particualry noticable if involved in bringing dogs and puppies in from the Irish Republic in often frequent large numbers.      

> Yes you will find with some the price goes up if it is what they call a star dog to £200

And yet, some Irish dogs end up with other rescues where the fee is far less.... I might have mentioned my own experience earlier in this thread where I took on a dog that was in a large dogs' home; the person who got her out paid only £50, and it was later when the chip documents were sent on that anyone knew she had an Irish origin.