Can someone please (politely) explain to me why rescue dogs from Ireland are brought to the UK?  This is not meant to be antagonistic in any way - I'm just curious.  Does Ireland have a stricter pts policy than UK?

> Does Ireland have a stricter pts policy than UK?

Yes, very much so. Most if not all pounds have a strict 7-day policy after which unclaimed dogs are destroyed, and conditions in some of these pounds are appalling. There is a larger stray dog problem than here. Take-up (rehoming) of rescued dogs is far less.  Add to that, Ireland is the puppy farming capital of Europe.

Thank you Ms T.  I had a suspicion that may be the case.  :-(

To be honest though in my opinion pressure should be applied for them to get their own house in order through EU legislation.

Bringing rescue dogs from outside the UK when we have plenty of our own seems really strange.  it jsut hides or reduces the problem for the powers that be over there.

By all means help them with educational material advice and even money to improve things over there, especially to encourage the uptake of rescues,a dn to curb puppy farming.

Didn't I read that an attempted puppy farming law there had died a death there recently?

I also think it's ridiculous to bring rescue dogs here.  Our rescue kennels are heaving and there are only a certain number of suitable homes at any given time.  We cannot take care of all the unwanted dogs in the world and charity begins at home.
WE should also put our own house in order before we take on any more. :(

The RSPCA regularly put down healthy dogs in need of homes as well, so if we rescue one of these perhaps one here will be put down who might have had a chance of a new home?

SURELY THIS POST IS AGAINST TOS - DO YOU NOT ALREADY HAVE ENOUGH EXPOSURE FOR YOUR RESCUES, JEMIMA?

Remember the Terms of Service: *Posts which reference puppies for sale, proposed litters, adult dogs for sale, dogs for rehoming, rescue dogs and stud dogs for hire will be removed, even if posted in response to a visitors question.

Tacking this on as replied to latest post.
I meant to edit Jemima's posts but deleted them by mistake. My apologies as, if nothing else, it makes the thread look a bit disjointed however the posts were in clear breach of TOS.

Many thanks,

Jeff. 

SURELY THIS POST IS AGAINST TOS - DO YOU NOT ALREADY HAVE ENOUGH EXPOSURE FOR YOUR RESCUES, JEMIMA?

Apologies if have broken the TOS. I posted the links to illustrate the Irish problem - and to see if I could challenge the opinion by West Coast that charity begins at home by making the Irish problem more tangible. These are not dogs with my rescue.

I was sent the pic of the yellow lab earlier today; as you can see, he's a very sad case. He's not up for rehoming as far as I am aware as I think he was probably PTS this afternoon or will be shortly. 

Jemima

Thank you, Jeff - you've restored my faith in Mods' abilities to moderate !!! :) :) :)

Apologies, Jeff. Wasn't aware of the TOS on this issue. I can see you don't want the board clogged up with endless ads for dogs, rescue or otherwise - although the links were intended to illustrate the Irish problem, which is the subject of the thread, not to advertise the dogs.

I have to say that I find it distressing that there are people here who seem more outraged by a breach of forum protocol than the fact that there are thousands of young, beautiful and healthy dogs  - often purebred - dying in pounds in Ireland.

To repeat the point I was trying to make in the post you deleted, and in answer to West Coast's assertion that charity begins at home, these dogs are less than two hours away. Dogs are dogs, after all. Not their fault that they had the bad luck to be born in Ireland.

There are people working on the problem out there, and new legislation in the pipeline, but in the meantime they need all the help they can get.

Jemima

I'm not sure why anyone would think that stray dogs in Ireland are less deserving than dogs in our pounds.  I do foster, homecheck and transport for the Irish Retriever Rescue, as I do for a number of English rescues, if and when I can help any of these dogs I will - regardless of their 'nationality'! 

>I'm not sure why anyone would think that stray dogs in Ireland are less deserving than dogs in our pounds.

Equally I'm not sure why anyone would think they're more deserving. The puppy farmers generally have got it made; people feel sorry for the pups and give money for them, and people feel sorry for the older cast-offs, and give money for them. Win, win; enabling them to carry on as before.

JG they would just have the dogs pts if rescues didn't help and I don't mean at the vets but destroyed probably by being shot. Legistation is the only way that will help the situation.

Money raised to help rescue the dogs is from people who donate to this cause and so no money is therefore diverted from rescue for uk based dogs and no uk dogs are ever turned away. I cannot vouch for all rescues but I know is the case for rescues I support and help with :-)

A rescues ethics should always be for any dog needing help whether they are from a reputable breeder , BYB or puppy farms. The dog didn't choose where they were from so rescues cannot discriminate.If they did I for one would withdraw my support :-)

But do they hand over any money for these dogs? If so, then they're acting as agents for the suppliers. If they're donated free then there's much less of an ethical problem. Personally I could never support a rescue that lines the pockets of puppy farmers.

Jeangenie, dogs end up in Irish pounds for many reasons, as is the same the world over.  Most are crosses that are very unlikely to have originated from puppy farms; others are working dogs - not bred by puppy farmers. There will, am sure, be some purebreds that originated from puppy farms given that there are a lot of puppy farms in Ireland. But there are very few purebred pups that come in (and why would they - they have value and you have to pay to surrender a dog to the pound). Perhaps some older puppy-farmed bred cast-offs and, yep, perhaps they are replaced by their owners with another puppy-farmed puppy. But I don't see how taking dogs from the pound fuels the trade. People will get the replacement dog whatever happens to their old dog. That happens everywhere.

I can see the argument re exporting the problem but, really, the exported dogs are a drop in the ocean. Every single dog past its claim-by date was PTS in Meath pound a few days ago. Many pounds in Ireland have a 100 per cent euthanasia record if the dogs are not claimed within 5 days. 

Jemim

No sure about that but would assume the pounds have a cost associated with pts so if the release the dogs it would in theory save them money. Also if they did pay to release the dogs them it would go to fund the pounds which would mean they would be less likely to turn away dogs. If they did turn away dogs on a regular basis then it would more likely mean the dogs would be turned out on the streets so would mean the likelihood of hunger, injury or even death.

It is a catch 22 situation really that can only be resolved by stopping the puppy farms by some serious changes in the law.

But do they hand over any money for these dogs? If so, then they're acting as agents for the suppliers. If they're donated free then there's much less of an ethical problem.

No, they don't pay for the dogs. Here's how it works financially. There are Irish rescues/charities that work with some of the Irish pounds. They take dogs past their claim-by date that have not been rehomed and would otherwise be destroyed. The Irish rescues - run on donations and adoption fees when they manage to rehome locally - do not pay for the dogs. The rescues kennel/find foster homes for the dogs until they can travel, at least first-vax and worm them, and sometimes neuter them (some under the Dogs Trust subsided neutering scheme). I usually pay for transport (£45 - £65 a dog, paid direct to the transporter) and very occasioanally help out with kenneling fees if for some reason there's a delay before a dog can travel but no, the UK rescues do not pay for the dogs either.

Jemima

> A rescues ethics should always be for any dog needing help whether they are from a reputable breeder , BYB or puppy farms. The dog didn't choose where they were from so rescues cannot discriminate.If they did I for one would withdraw my support :-)

A rescues finances are also finite (travel costs will eat into a lot of dogs dinners) so they must clearly discriminate as to what is their remit, so surely it is the dogs bred in this country before dogs bred overseas, dogs born in France are also just over the water (of course PET Travel scheme rules minimise the likelihood of them coming in, otherwsie we would probably be seeing them from the continent too).

This applies especially to breed rescue who are largely supported by dwindling breed club members.  A complete crisis can occur when a breed becomes popular with Puppy farmers and BYB's but has a fairly small core of true devotees, such as my own breed.  There is a waiting list to get dogs into my local dogs home, what do you think happens to the dogs with owners who won't wait?

I have to say that I find it distressing that there are people here who seem more outraged by a breach of forum protocol than the fact that there are thousands of young, beautiful and healthy dogs  - often purebred - dying in pounds in Ireland.

So why don't you make a TV programme about the Irish situation?

>If they did turn away dogs on a regular basis then it would more likely mean the dogs would be turned out on the streets so would mean the likelihood of hunger, injury or even death.

Many rescue centres here are already full and are refusing to take any more dogs.

>It is a catch 22 situation really that can only be resolved by stopping the puppy farms by some serious changes in the law.

Absolutely. Education and legislation - legislation with teeth, not just words - to change the easy-come, easy-go mindset.

Barbara as I explained the rescues fund the Irish situation separately and the support for all dogs is maintained. I also think breed specific rescues are very different to non breed specific rescues. People can continue to support  rescues and can specify that if they donate it will only go to support uk dogs.

If somebody wishes to withdraw their support because a rescue helps Irish dogs then that is their choice but who will be the losers ? The dogs. As I said only a change in the law will make a difference so people can also lobby for that to happen but also can also help the dogs at the same time.

"I have to say that I find it distressing that there are people here who seem more outraged by a breach of forum protocol than the fact that there are thousands of young, beautiful and healthy dogs  - often purebred - dying in pounds in Ireland."

Weasel words Jemima ....you, of all people could bring this problem of the Irish dogs to the whole of the tv watching public by making a programme about it - but why don't you - no-one to finance it?

If people want to help dogs abroad they are re free to do so, but to support them being brought here is what this is about, it costs money that could be more usefully spent in the country affected.

West Coast's assertion that charity begins at home, these dogs are less than two hours away. Dogs are dogs, after all. Not their fault that they had the bad luck to be born in Ireland
Of course it's not the dogs' fault any more than it's the fault of starving children that they were born in Africa!  But we need to get our own house in order before we interfere in other countries.
I did look at your link and it certainly didn't make me think any differently. I see similar dogs every time I go to work in my local rescue kennel.  Unwanted dogs used to be pts here and if something doesn't change, I feel that those times may well have to return.  And to me it's a preferable option than being confined in a lonely kennel for months if not years for a dog that's used to being in a family home.

the fact that there are thousands of young, beautiful and healthy dogs  - often purebred - dying in pounds in Ireland."
Then this might have been a much more worthy cause in which to invest your time rather than a relatively few breeders who are breeding exaggerated dogs!

I certainly don't live on the same planet as you on any level - thankfully!

the fact that there are thousands of young, beautiful and healthy dogs  - often purebred - dying in pounds in Ireland

Most are crosses

Confused........or What

Only if you are intent on being confused, tatty-ead.

Most are crosses. But there are a lot of purebreds, too.

For goodness sake, Champdogs, please try to separate out your dislike of me from the issue here.

Jemima

JG, no money exchanges hands for these dogs, we pay for transport over to the UK and to have them castrated and vet checked, before they come over or as soon as they are with a fosterer.

it costs money that could be more usefully spent in the country affected.

True, but if the rescue and the people supporting that particular rescue choose to spend their money to bring these dogs over (one that I have adopted for example) then surely we are free to choose?

>JG, no money exchanges hands for these dogs

I appreciate that you can only speak for the rescue you work with, but I'm thinking primarily of those rescues that appear to specialise in ex breeding animals from puppy farms, and often advertised as being from Ireland.

>> For goodness sake, Champdogs, please try to separate out your dislike of me from the issue here.
>
>

With due respect Jemima, the antipathy shown towards you has a lot to do with the programme that you produced ...we are still dealing with the blow-back from that ...and now we have the puppy farmers advertising that the dogs they produce are "healthy because they aren't KC registered".   You have brought our opprobrium upon yourself.

Equally I'm not sure why anyone would think they're more deserving. The puppy farmers generally have got it made; people feel sorry for the pups and give money for them, and people feel sorry for the older cast-offs, and give money for them

I don't think either are more deserving, and people should be free to choose which charity they support - everyone has their own reasons for supporting a charity (or not).

We have puppy farms here in the UK too - earning just as much as the puppy farmers in Ireland and just as dire conditions for the dogs.  What strikes me is that a large number of people in Ireland (and I have relatives ther who also agree) don't value the lives of animals quite as much as we do here in the UK and it isn't unusual to find puppies and adult dogs as strays on the streets.

It is going to take a hell of a lot of education/publicity before joe public realises a pupy farmer from a breeder, not just in Ireland but also here.  So in the meantime, I will just help where and when I can.

I don't have an issue with importing rescue dogs from ireland, I do think dogs in need that are already here should be helped first, its cheaper for starters!
But can't see why a dog from a puppy farm ect shouldn't be given a chance.

I don't think it encourages/enables puppy farms tbh. Why, well if you don't really care about your animals anyway if the rescues won't take the spares you will just pts/shoot them.

Adam

I have no problem with a few dogs comming into the UK to rescue from Ireland or any other European country to find a home. I emphasis a few.  What I do disagree with are regular journeys to Ireland by individual rescues as frequent as every two weeks to bring into the UK sometimes as many as 80/90 dogs and puppies per journey. That is an awful lot of dogs and puppies in a year taking up places for dogs already seeking and awaiting homes  resident here in the UK.

When you have a business (which is a ltd company but not non profit) operating a journey of collecting dogs and puppies (they will argue their cause is charitable) no doubt it is otherwise these dogs and puppies are at risk of being pts but on the flip side of the coin they are running a business and when people financially support rescues that are operating as a ltd companies do they realise that are not only supporting the dogs but the owners of the business who refer to themselves as members.

Puppies are profitable, they do not require neutering or spaying just a parvo vaccination.  Not all dogs that arrive require spaying or neutering either. Those that do are operated on by an employed vet working part time then the dogs go quickly into foster. Dogs many of which go into foster soon after arrival become the responsibility of the fosterer. 

Funds are raised by supporters and food for the dogs and vehicles are gifted and supplied, there are paid staff but also voluntary too.

They do take dogs from Welsh puppy farms some of which have in the past needed costly veterinary care, but in recent times appear to favour the Irish puppies and dogs, as a business is this because they are less expensive to rehome and need less veterinary expenditure?  There must be a reason when needy dogs in puppy farms and pounds are on their doorstep but are sometimes passed by.  It will be interesting to see what happens with the proposed introduction of the new dog breeding regulations in Wales when it is anticipated that some dog breeders/puppy farmers maybe forced to give up some of their dogs, just where this rescue loyality lies with the dogs in desperate need of help in Welsh puppy farms/licensed commercial breeders whos' dogs may need money spent on them before rehomming can take place or the easy rehomers from Ireland such as cute puppies and sometimes already neutered dogs?  If comes down to money which is what businesses are in business for then it is likely to be the latter. These are some of my reasons for not agreeing to dogs and puppies being bought into the UK from Ireland by the van load on a regular basis because I believe individuals are profiteering by the dogs misfortune who are freely available just for the asking.
          

I have to say I don't understand why people bring in from other countries when we have a huge enough problem here. 

Yes we will all feel sorry for the dogs abroad etc. in rescue but surely we should be doing something in our own country first and if we can maybe setting up organisations in other countries where we can give advice etc.  I know in other countries at the moment and especialy in Spain dogs are going to rescue at an enormous rate due to the economic climate.  Lots of my breed are in rescue over there and as much as I adore the breed and feel their plight I want to try ensure that the same thing doesn't happen with them over here.

Our rescue does as it focuses on Labs in the uk but then also helps Labs in Eire .

Another lab rescue I know else where also has the same policy.

No dog in the uk will get sidelined by a dog from Eire. So long as there is capacity and the funding from donators continues to come  in  then I for one will continue to support this.

I choose to help and support my breed rescue rather than generic rescues but that is my choice and will continue to do this :-)

I don't think that anyone would have a problem with anyone supporting their own breed LJS.  But there are van loads brought over from Ireland on a regular basis.  When I lived in Berkshire there was a veterinary nurse who would bring a van load of ex-breeding bitches from puppy farms and sell them to clients who had just lost their dogs.  And they weren't cheap either - a nice little earner and keeping the puppy farms going!  The local area was completely flooded while the local rescues were heaving at the seams and couldn't find homes for the dogs in their care.

Just because rescues aren't putting dogs to sleep (yet!) doesn't mean that it's not happening.  Dogs are being turned away from rescues because they're full and the dogs are being taken direct to Vets to be pts as their owners either don't want them or can't afford them.

Of course everyone feels for unwanted dogs all over the world, just as we do children who are hungry, in orphanages etc.  But responsible people do their best to help them in their own country, and don't bring them here when we're already struggling with our own problems. :(

Pat, I understand where you are coming from, but do not entirely agree.  I have picked up dogs in the middle of the night, adult dogs (mostly cross breeds) and kept them overnight, have taken them to my vets and had them checked over and neutered, sometimes I pay, sometimes the rescue does, but the rescue always expects to pay and if I do then that is my my donation to help these dogs. I will do the same for dogs in rescues in the UK.  My rescue from Ireland, was not a cute pedigree puppy, but an adult crossbreed (but very cute).

I also foster occasionally (but haven't done for a while) and I also do home checks, and transport dogs - none of this is done for money, I/we do it for the dogs.

My point is that not all rescues are run as a business, there are some that are run entirely for the dogs sake - this is why I help. 

Admittedly there are rescues that do make money, and some are run as a business, but, as far as I am aware the ones that I help are not profit making, in fact I would go as far as to say the complete opposite as when a dog needs medical care, then it is given and put on forever foster, with the rescue footing the bills, yes, maybe donations and fund raising have played a part but the rescue itself does not make a profit as such.

It doesn't matter whether a dog is from Ireland, Scotland, England or Wales, to me, it is the dog that is important, not it's birth place.

And as LJS wrote the lab rescue also helps labs in the UK and Eire, this is what the IRR do, they have and do rescue dogs from the UK too.

Would the people who disagree with adopting dogs from Ireland also disagree with adoption of children from other countries?

When I lived in Berkshire there was a veterinary nurse who would bring a van load of ex-breeding bitches from puppy farms and sell them to clients who had just lost their dogs.  And they weren't cheap either - a nice little earner and keeping the puppy farms going!  The local area was completely flooded while the local rescues were heaving at the seams and couldn't find homes for the dogs in their care

Disgraceful, I hope you reported this!

Disgraceful, I hope you reported this!

To who? Nothing illegal, just immoral. :(

Disgraceful, I hope you reported this!

To who? Nothing illegal, just immoral. 

I thought the vets practice might have been interested at the lack of care/scruples of one of their nurses!

For goodness sake, Champdogs, please try to separate out your dislike of me from the issue here.


Hear Hear.

To me if a dog need rescuing it needs rescuing, I dont care where it comes from. 

Disgraceful, I hope you reported this!
I thought the vets practice might have been interested at the lack of care/scruples of one of their nurses!

What she did outside her work had nothing to do with them!  Most of them went back to that practice for their numerous medical problems.....
The local national rescue knew what she was doing but they could do nothing either - how could they?
She said that she was providing a service for the clients and needed to pay for her overheads - and the rest! :(
I just saw the badly bred, awful temperament dogs when they were bought to me for grooming!  Not nice!

If people want to help unfortunate dogs in other countries then of course they are free to do so.  I just don't think that they should be bought here until we sort out our unwanted dog situation........

> Would the people who disagree with adopting dogs from Ireland also disagree with adoption of children from other countries?

In principle - yes, if there were children here to adopt. We have friends in the USA who adopted two children from Chile - but they only did this because they were considered too old by adoption agencies there (in the USA).

I disagree with bringing dogs in from Ireland while there are lots of dogs in rescues here.

It's quite tough for older couples to adopt children here in the uk too, that's why people adopt from overseas. 

I suppose what I am saying is people have to have the choice, otherwise we would never do anything for anyone outside this country and that would be really sad and insular.

I notice there is a thread to raise money for NZ and hopefully money will be raised even though it is abroad.

It's quite tough for older couples to adopt children here in the uk too, that's why people adopt from overseas
In the same vein, if people taking dogs from Ireland are people who wouldn't be allowed to adopt from English rescues, ie small children, not working or working full time, then they wouldn't be taking homes that our rescue dogs need. :)

> otherwise we would never do anything for anyone outside this country and that would be really sad and insular.

Oh I agree - but I think that things have to be assessed case by case - at least that's the way I consider whether to support charities/appeals :) An earthquake in NZ or a famine in Ethiopia is totally different tho' IMO to a country like Ireland having/allowing this situation with puppy farming and unwanted dogs. Taking the dogs out of the country just isn't helping sort the problem - unless, we, in this country, had a huge shortage of dogs. It really is down to the Irish people and their government to sort the problem once and for all.

I disagree with bringing dogs from Ireland aswell, dont understand why more rescues are doing this.
There was a programme on tv a couple of months back about this, well.. a rescue in derbyshire (i think) who fetches thier dogs from Ireland, im sure they said they paid a small fee - will try and post a link later if i can find it..

I think it is totally wrong to bring dogs in from other countries no matter who pays what for them while there are still hundreds if not thousands of dogs in this country needing homes.
The adoption of children is totally different as there are relatively few children available for adoption these days. If our childrens homes were full to overflowing I would be against adopting from overseas too.