Hi all, Cookiemonster (GSD/Collie) is coming up for 9 months now, and is a bag of raging hormones. He is being a bit of a 'big man' with Mauser (working Cocker) and the mo. and trying his luck. The question is, will neutering him make any difference? Mauser is coming up for 3 and Decoy (Springer) is coming up for 2 both are neutered and never ever squabble. Since Sunny (GR bitch) passed away :( Mauser is top dog. He and Decoy never have any probs, but Cookie is pushing his luck with Mauser lately. He is quite a 'guardy' dog anyway, he likes to guard the feed bins, blankets, washing, slippers etc from the other dogs, and will growl at them if they approach. But is perfectly behaved if I, hubby or kids want what he is guarding. He has snapped at Mauser a couple of times (more like a collie-type nip) if Mauser flexes his muscles, but obviously I don't want it to escalate. I intervene - I know some people advocate letting the dogs sort out their own pecking order - but I have to let him know, that I as 'Alpha' don't accept his behaviour, and I don't let him guard things, I remove the object or him. Mauser has started to get into Cookie's cage and lay on his blanket to prove his status and of course Cookie creates about it. Will neutering only add to the confusion or will it stop Cookie's bid for leadership? What do you all suggest is the best way to deal with this. They are not having huge punch ups or anything, but I don't want to do nowt and be posting that they have - if that makes sense! all advice is more than welcome:) Julie:)

i think it would make a difference if you had him neutered - our Dane cross has a similar problem that lessened significantly a few weeks after his neuter, but you have to keep dealing with the behaviour in the same way [taking the things he's guarding away etc]. If you want to know for sure if it'd make enough difference you could always try the Tardec injection??

Annette

It could make a difference, but I think you'd have to be quick about it.
Just because Mauser is the next oldest after Sunny passing doesn't mean, in the dogs way of thinking, that they should be top dog. Cookie (though the youngest) is the virile male and again, in the dogs way of thinking, has every right to be top dog (beneath you, of course)....looks like he's just trying to establish that fact and the other dogs are listening to a point. At 9 months he could have done some serious damage by now had they not been listening. Does that make sense? I'm full of the flu and my brain is addled enough ;)

thanks for your replies - do you mean get him neutered asap, or try the Tardec asap? I was surprised that Mauser did take over from Sunny, as he is the most submissive. When strange dogs approach it is Decoy that goes out to greet them, and if one is a bit shirty with them, Decoy will run after it barking, Decoy is never aggressive, he just seems to have taken on this role. I don't know who will be top dog when cookie is fully mature, and I wasn't trying to ensure mauser stayed that way, I just didn't want any fights if I could do something to prevent it:) Do you feel I should get Cookie neutered and that will effect who is ranking top and Mauser will always be top, or will it just prevent a more bloody takeover, and cookie will inevitably become top dog anyway? Should I not intervene as long as they aren't fighting, and watch the body language to see is Mauser is actually signalling submissiveness? - All this Alpha stuff confuses me:( They just seem intent on winding each other up at the moment. If Sunny were still here she would have none of this from these upstarts :D - Men! Julie:)

<<<Do you feel I should get Cookie neutered and that will effect who is ranking top>>>

That's a choice only you can make, Julie ;)
I mean't you have to be quick because, like you say, he's raging with hormones. It may not have the effect you're after if left any longer and seeing as then you'd have three dogs all equal, there still might be battles for top dog.
If you leave Cookie intact, Mauser will/should come to understand that Cookie is top so long as you let them come to that conclusion. If you think it right that the oldest should be top dog then have Cookie neutered but what I was trying to point out (not well I'd say) is that you may have battles either option.......<<<Men!>>> Yeah, who'd 'ave 'em? :D

<<<If Sunny were still here she would have none of this from these upstarts>>>
<wicked grin> We all know it takes a good bitch to keep these men in their places, huh? :p

Would it speed the process up if Julie favoured Cookie and so de throned Mauser ??if Mauser is submissive would he allow himself to be de throned ?
but then what kind of a king would cookie be ??
Sorry to jump in but this interests me --hope you understand the questions :D
liz

LOL, Liz, yeah I understand (even through this flu induced haze)

It probably would speed it up but then you just can never tell with these 'ere dawgz (especially over the net) and it does depend on whether Julie wants Cookie to be King ;)

I have a friend going through a similar thing. She thinks her oldest, neutered guy should be top dog because he's been there longest and intervenes in any spats with the younger (intact) guy. To me this will carry on until she lets the younger guy earn his rightful (in his mind) place. I must say though that her older guy doesn't seem to be fussed who's top or not!

thanks Jackie
hope you feel better soon -plenty of hot toddy's :D
LIz

Thanks Liz...I have another heating up now :D

Hi liz, I was wondering the same thing. I don't care who is king as long as peace reigns supreme :D One of the problems is that Mauser is Daddy's little prince, and is therefore favoured by Daddy. He sits on Daddy's lap and sleeps in our bedroom in his velvet lined basket - I kid you not! next to Daddy's side of the bed:D. Therefore elevating his status to the others. Therefore Mauser is defending his throne and getting arsey, with the getting in cookie's bed to deliberately make a point. Thinking about it as I type perhaps this is what is causing Cookie to start on Mauser, if cookie is the natural leader in the making, he would feel the need to challenge Mauser even more? Kind of the how dare Mauser have all these priviledges! What do you reckon? I would be happy whoever was top dog:) I didn't want fights, which is why I wondered whether neutering cookie would make any difference. I have to say, this is so helpful, cyberly 'talking' things through really help to clarify things:) Julie:)

ps Daddy isn't going to like this - <evil grin>

Hate to throw a spanner in the works, but the noisiest dog is not always top dog, could be that Mauser is just showing that he can have the bed if he wants, he may be just quietly exerting his authority. Ingrid

Hi Julie
I don't have a 'pack' so really I shouldn't comment (but I will anyway :D )
From what you said and mauser being ' daddys little prince ' then to dethrone him would be way too stressfull for all concerned .
Like Ingrid said Mauser is asserting his authority by going in Cookies bed ( so he knows Cookie has ideas above his station )
As to the neutering I've no idea !!
There ! wasn't I helpfull ;) :D
good luck
Liz :)

I agree with what Ingrid said, too. Mauser is quietly asscerting his authority, but then, he's been around longer and has a few more manners than the noisy one ;) However in dog packs, top dog is the one with the urmm, tackle = Cookie. Yet Mauser is the one with the throne and crown (thanks to daddy ;) ) and it seems Cookie is out to grab the lot....which in his way of thinking is only right! :D

thanks for all your input everyone. Its a tricky one- I know. I am going to speak to the vet and see what he thinks, maybe try the Tardec jab and see if it makes any difference. Perhaps if cookie is neutered then it will be on a more even keel, and whoever is going to be top dog will be no matter what the 'tackle' situation is, and perhaps if cookie is neutered he maybe less challenging in any case to Mauser. As I have said I personally don't mind which one is, Other than me of course:). Mauser is definintely top, the way he acts etc. He isn't agressive, he is a serene ruler:D Julie:)

IMHO it is often harder to get a good situation with two dogs who are 'even' - especially two neutered males - they *need* to be different from each other -it's these differences that help them to slot together.. each filling a different place in the 'pack'

Hi digger, would you say that neutering Cookie will make things worse then? And just wait and see what happens with Cookie. I am not in a rush to neuter him, I just didn't know if it would improve or escalate the situation. My dogs aren't normally the fighty kind, with strange dogs, etc on the whole they tend to ignore them, unless the strange dog is persistant or tries to mount one of them, then it seems to fall to Decoy to chase off the intruder, they are usually much more interested in playing with me than other dogs. I also wondered about size issue, as in Cookie is the size of the GSD and Mauser is obviously a cocker. Does size also have a say in who would be more dominant in this case? Julie:)

My friend who has mostly rescue dogs, and cannot mix her collies with the others indoors has an interesting situation.

Tha main problem is an Adult GSD of approaching six years. He came to them at around five months of age. At the time they had an Alpha male Shepherd, and a neutered BSD male that appeared to be second in command. Shadow worshipped the boss GSD and accepted the much lighter neutered male as above him.

Sadly the old male died, and Shadow made a bid for top spot being the biggest and most bolshy of the intact males (most of theothers are collies). That is when the Collies started to squabble (about 3 years ago), and the GSD is anthing but a benign ruler, and would quite happily have shredded any one of them. For safety the four adult male collies have to be crated in the house, and allowed in the garden seperately with one of the bitches or on their own.

Even though the GSD is a bully and considers himself supremo, he still defers and will grovel at the feet of the neutered male BSD, who now can barely stand, is going deaf and sight is going.

Things in dog hierachy are seldom clear cut, and often different indidviduals are boss in different situations.

Often away from home one of the others takes the lead in where they go, who musters the troops when confronted by strange dogs etc.

This is probably as in the way we keep our dogs, we are Alpha, and at best the highest ranking canine is only second in command.

<<<Things in dog hierachy are seldom clear cut, and often different indidviduals are boss in different situations.>>>

That is so true. Mine (7 yr spayed F & 4 yr intact M) swap about in different situations but do always defer to me. For the most part though, I do think the dogs should be allowed (without blood being shed) to sort things out :)

I agree, again :) Whoops, that was supposed to go under Diggers reply

But there're are three dogs here which can be even trickier.

Personally, if these were mine, I'd leave Cookie as he is and dethrone the Cocker. I suspect he knows it's about to come anyhow (that's how it would work in a wild pack)...it's just hubby who has to get his head around that, huh? :p

oops pressed button twice

Thats my next post Jacqui : 'Help Hubby wont dethrone his prince! ' Hee hee, we talked about it last night, and I would like to see how Mauser and Cookie interact if mauser has his priviledges reduced, ie not on laps, and bed moved downstairs etc. It it worth a try dont you think, perhaps it will be a bloodless coup! Julie:)

<<<Thats my next post Jacqui : 'Help Hubby wont dethrone his prince!>>>

LOL! Sorry Julie, despite being married for almost 19 yrs, I'm useless with hubby's....mine would jsut be sent to the doghouse....with his 'Prince' :p :D