I'm just trying to think about how we will manage things, if/when we have a litter later this year.

My concerns are around disease/parvo and trying to prevent this.

The 'normal' and current situation is:  I live in an urban environment and currently walking the 2 dogs involves getting in the car every morning and a 20 min drive out to open countryside and 20 min back.  I do walk in areas where we're unlikely to bump into other dog walkers - in open countryside - but I'm sure other dogs have been in those areas at some point over the previous 24 hrs, as they are largely open access land.  Once a week, we have a dog walker who is v responsible and good, and they go out for a dog walk with other dogs.  The dog walker only walks fully vaccinated dogs (on paper, although she didn't ask to see proof of jabs).  (Due to work, there's just the one morning I can't walk them.)  When the dogs toilet, they do so in the street, as we have only a tiny outdoor area.

When the litter are born, I will not be working at all and plan to be available almost all the time.  But the other dog at least is still going to need to be walked.  As the pups get bigger, mum will need to be walked, too. 

Questions:

1) Leaving aside the dog-walker issue for now - what should I do to minimise risks of bringing disease back into the house, when pups are born and adults are out for walks or even just toileting in the street?  (I was thinking of at least a parvo-cide footbath which I can dip adult dogs' paws in before they come into the house.  And all people removing shoes and washing hands/using hand sanitiser.)

1.5!)  Once pups are a few weeks old, will mum want to come out on a walk again?  At what point do your bitches want to restart their regular walking routine and for how long do they want to be home, with the pups?

2) Is the dog walker an absolute no-no?  (I guess there is the risk of travelling in the dog walker van and then meeting the other dogs - although they are supposed to be fully vaccinated - but apart from that, the dog walker will be doing a similar thing to what I would be doing.  The attraction of the dog walker for me - and possibly using her on more days than the 1 day a week I currently do - is that I would be able to stay home with the pups and not need to leave them alone unsupervised when I'm walking the adult dogs.  Given all the work of the litter, it is v appealing to be able to pass on the dog walking duties to another person at this time.  But if this is considered too much of a risk, I'll have to reconsider.)

3) I have heard of pups who are at high risk of contracting parvo or a disease, having a parvo jab whilst still young and in the litter.  Would this be a good idea, do you think, given our circumstances?  What age would that be given at?  (Don't maternal antibodies protect them at first?  Mum had a full booster within a year, so hopefully will pass the antibodies on.)

3.5)  Should parvo be my main concern regarding a contagious disease contracted from other dogs?  Are there others?

4) I'm fortunate enough to have the possibility of moving to a rural area for the last 3 weeks the pups are with us (weeks 4/5-7) as I have friends who have said I can use their spare converted barn.  They do live 1 hr 25 mins away.  I don't know if this is a good or helpful idea, whether it would be too traumatic to move an entire litter and mum to a new environment etc...?  It would mean dogs could be walked just by stepping out the door and walking, in fields which are not used by any other dog walkers.  There would also be more indoor space there as the pups start to get more active - a huge open-plan living area (where I'll put up a puppy pen).  We could manage where we currently live, but it would be a better environment in many ways there.  What are your feelings about this idea?  I know some folk move the litter outside at around this time, so some sort of transition seems possible?

Any feedback gratefully received.  Thanks.

Hi,

This is firmly only my opinion which I've got from talking to other breeders, our vet, other people on champdogs and its what we did with our litter although i am by NO means an expert

We used a parvo footdip for our dogs so that they could be walked whilst Poppy had her puppies and included washing their bellies etc. when they'd had a really good run.  The puppies do get immunity from the milk anyway so whilst they are being fed its not quite such a massive issue. 

You could speak to your vet and see if its common in your area, we rang round our 10 local practices and none of them had seen a case of parvo in quite a few years so we decided our area was low risk.  We live in the suburbs so open country isn't far (5-10 min drive) but we do walk in the local park a lot as well and walk our girls on the pavement as we found that in chucking them in the car each day they lost the ability to walk to heel.  We had lots of people round who had dogs and I myself have a horse as well so was coming in from the stables (lots of yard dogs).  I just took my coat and boots off and washed my hands, I did change out of my jodphurs most the time too.

I don't see an issue for with the dog walker for me personally but its down to your own peace of mind  - you could always provide her with some fetching waterproof over trousers if your worried about cross contamination. 

the only thing I do know is you have to do what you feel comfortable with otherwise you will be constantly panicking.  many people told us that as our girl was a very careful mother and she hadn't sat or laid on any that it would be fine to leave her after the first 5 days but despite that advice and never once having to rescue a puppy we still had a 3 week 24hr puppy watch......

Oh dear, I'm sorry but for me there are just too many unsatisfactory factors with your situation to make it a suitable environment for having a litter.

Nothing is perfect and we all need to minimise risks but without starting to think about infection coming home, how can you, for instance, walk the other dog when your newly whelped bitch needs round the clock attention?  And to toilet both dogs in the street 5 times a day would make disinfecting just unreasonable for me.  It's not just an urban area, it's without enough facilities at home as well.

Would there be any way of moving to your friends converted barn for the complete duration of the pups being born and getting to 8 weeks?  Sounds like you would worry less that way.

I'm fortunate enough to have the possibility of moving to a rural area for the last 3 weeks the pups are with us (weeks 4/5-7) as I have friends who have said I can use their spare converted barn.  They do live 1 hr 25 mins away.

Have you thought about your buyers here? If some have visited before the move, they will then have to travel elsewhere -but also, for anyone who only came from 5 weeks onwards it would look quite suspicious to a lot of people if they went to see a litter and buy a puppy from premises nowhere near those where the KC registration says the breeder lives at.

Sorry I clearly am incapable of reading! 

I just assumed there would be a garden area for the dogs I thought the issue was having pups in an urban area - itself isn't a problem but a lack of basic facilities that in my breed I would class as essential could be a massive issue.  You clearly must work very hard to keep your dogs fit and healthy and ensure they are getting enough time outdoors. 

As a puppy buyer I would be suspicious if I couldn;t come and view the pups in your home and would probably think it was some sort of puppy farm.  Not out of any judgement fo you at all or the way you care for your dogs at all but just because any sort of set-up where litters and dogs are being moved around instantly makes me think puppy farm.

From your other posts on here it obvious that you're responsible and you're clearly responsible enough to ask but I'd probably leave it for a litter longer until I had a better setup.  it'll just be a nightmare for you, but there's always a way and if you could get access to the barn from a week or two before until their all gone that'd be great :)

good luck x

Susiebell would you be happy to view puppies in a barn if the address on the paperwork was different and an hour and a half away?  If a puppy buyer posted that on here we'd all be saying "Hold on there....." :(

i would be very worried myself if address was different to paper work!! and you would have to be explaning to ppl that came late ,i think this would only work if your list is full and you have meet all new owners and told them what will be happening ....all the best xx
xxxx

Well, I don't foresee a problem with the paperwork situation - Im far more concerned about what is healthy and best for mum and pups.  Buyers will just have to get references from others in the breed, read our website and see the breed clubs we are registered with and the qualifications our dogs have, and then decide for themselves.  There are not many people in our breed in the UK, and we are breeding a genetically far better litter - hopefully the facts will speak for themselves.  I can't think of many puppy farmers who would be driving 13 hours in Europe to a stud dog, for eg.  We have ourselves bought a pup from a breeder whose address was not the same as the address on the form.  The reason there was that he had 2 homes....

Of course we would meet buyers, whether at home or at this place we've been offered by friends.  We after all want them to meet mum before she is pregnant and us, of course.  We would be honest and up front about using the converted barn and hope that buyers would recognise it is for the best for their pup.

We possibly could use the barn for the whole time, but I don't want to impose on our friends for longer than necessary and with pups not moving around much in the early weeks, it made more sense to remain home then.  Not to mention that mum should give birth in an environment which feels safe to her and not in a new place. If the litter turns out to be small, we could well not need the barn at all.

As for toileting in the street - very few dogs get enough exercise in their gardens and exercise concerns only the adult dogs, not the pups.  I can't see how the garden issue is relevant except when we're talking about parvovirus and the risks of bringing that in.  Which is why I was asking what those risks were and the best ways of preventing them.

I was hoping others might have experience of raising a litter in a city.  I do know there are folk who do, just a quick look at breeders' addresses on champ dogs shows that - rather than a knee-jerk reaction that it is impossible.

rather than a knee-jerk reaction that it is impossible.
Not a knee jerk reaction at all.  How rude - just because you haven't got the support that you would have liked. 
Nobody has said that it's impossible - just that your situation is unsatisfactory.  But with 30 years experience of breeding, then I certainly know what is involved in whelping, rearing and homing litters with other dogs in the family and therefore what facilities are needed for the safety, health and welfare of the bitch and her puppies.

As for toileting in the street - very few dogs get enough exercise in their gardens and exercise concerns only the adult dogs, not the pups.

There is a difference between exercising and regular toileting in a public place.  Most breeders have sufficient garden to allow a bitch who has just whelped a litter to relieve herself regularly in a safe, private space, whether it is a garden or courtyard.

Rearing a litter in a city isn't a problem, as long as breeders have suitable facilities.

Hi rabid i never said it was impossable!...you have thought it all though so dont worry! if you have a full list and can explane whats going to be happening
xxxx

I'm not a breeder, so can't really comment on the practicalities - but surely it can't be very satisfactory for a nursing bitch to go out into the street to toilet?

Slightly off topic - but how do you manage when she comes into season if your bitch has to use the street rather than your garden?

I appreciate that those who live in cities have as much right to own a dog as country dwellers, but I would have thought that a neutered dog was the only practical pet.

>I was hoping others might have experience of raising a litter in a city.

I raised a litter of 10 in the centre of Westminster, and you can't get much more urban than that! However that was the year before parvo arrived.

It should be possible to find out from local vets/dog trainers etc if there is a high risk of parvo in your area.
They are the ones who know if it's about and how often outbreaks occur. Some areas are higher risk, and unfortunately it's often something that seems endemic around travellers' dogs, so if you have travellers' camps or regular visits to the area then that's also a risk.

On the plus side, a dog that is exercised daily in streets & parks in an dog-dense urban environment would probably have very good immunity as it will encounter various bugs on a much more regular basis than, say, a dog in a rural area exercised only on farmland.

Our dogs regularly toilet in the street when in season and have never had a problem with unwanted attention from males.

TBH, I think that only those who have tried to raise a litter in a city can really understand what's involved in making it possible and feasible. 

>Most breeders have sufficient garden to allow a bitch who has just whelped a litter to relieve herself regularly in a safe, private space, whether it is a garden or courtyard.

That is helpful.  When we have had pups, we've allowed them to toilet in our small outdoor area before being fully vaccinated.  We could allow the bitch to toilet there - however I doubt she will want to, as she's not used to viewing it as a toilet area.  I agree it might look strange (if nothing else) for a nursing mum to wee in the street, but really it takes 2 seconds to pop a lead on and take her out there, and I'm not sure (again, besides the parvo risk - and we would have to wipe her down before coming back inside) why this would be such a horrible idea?

>Not a knee jerk reaction at all.  How rude - just because you haven't got the support that you would have liked. 

Yes, sorry if I expected a forum full of highly experienced breeders to use that experience and help me to figure out a way to make this work, with me pointing out the constraints I have to work within.  Instead of effectively telling me it is 'highly unsatisfactory' and making few helpful suggestions.  I don't think that it is rude for me to call that a 'knee jerk' reaction - it is one!  There are no further questions being asked of me, and (by some) no constructive help given.  If it really is impossible, then there are perhaps other better ways to help me realise that.

I'm sorry that we don't all have the ideal circumstances available to raise a litter in - I would have thought that others on here have struggled and made-do in less than ideal situations and that I might be able to learn from their experiences.

Jean, you give me strength with the raising of a litter in Westminster!  Ms Temeraire, that is helpful too - I will ask vets.

I've reared 2 litters in a flat in town but had 2 courtyards front and back which could be disinfected.  It was also a breed that could cope with no external exercise for 8 weeks.

Before that I've bred for 20 years with a large garden but with grooming dogs coming onto the premises and kept the pups safe with no problem.  I've also, very occassionally, been to a dog show when pups were older and had no problem with bringing infection back by taking thorough precautions.  Parvo is only one of the many risks.

But what you're talking about is in a different league altogether.

I agree it might look strange (if nothing else) for a nursing mum to wee in the street, but really it takes 2 seconds to pop a lead on and take her out there, and I'm not sure (again, besides the parvo risk - and we would have to wipe her down before coming back inside) why this would be such a horrible idea?

Most newly whelped bitches develop diarrhoea after eating the afterbirths, can go on for a few days for sure -how would you cope with clearing that up? Plus of course there will be blood and gunk dripping out for the first few days as well when the bitch has a wee. We find it hard to clean up from our garden.

i live in a small town but i dont walk any of my girls when thay have had pups not till pups start going and by then none of my girls have wanted to be with their babbies.
i just will not take the risk but there is plenty of things out there you can wash your girls legs down with to make sure nothing is passed to her pups
xxxx

I don't want to look like I'm just rebutting every point made, because I for sure want to consider everything which might be a problem - but we've for sure dealt with diahorrea before.  Both dogs have had giardia in the past and we've bloody and runny poo for a week or two, whilst tests were being done by the vet.

thanks white lilly, I would just need to be extra careful.

What I haven't mentioned is that we're in the process of looking for a place to move to (partly to have this litter, we are so committed!) but I am thinking about what would happen, were we unable to find a suitable house.  So this is a contingency plan.  I very much hope we have found somewhere by the autumn.

imo i do think you have thought about this alot and i admire you for your planing so much which is what is the right thing to do so fingers crossed you find it :)
xxxx

> Yes, sorry if I expected a forum full of highly experienced breeders to use that experience and help me to figure out a way to make this work,

A little disingenuous dont you think.

It wasnt so long ago when you informed me and several other experienced breeders that, despite years of knowledge, YOU were right and we were wrong about the best age to place our pups.

And this is from someone who has never bred a litter in her life.

You may just have to accept that others may be right and you are wrong in expecting to mate, whelp and rear a healthy litter of pups where you live.

Just for your information, it is very common for bitches to squat and deliver pups outside unexpectedly and often in the dark, whilst relieving themselves.

When we have had pups, we've allowed them to toilet in our small outdoor area before being fully vaccinated.  We could allow the bitch to toilet there - however I doubt she will want to, as she's not used to viewing it as a toilet area.

Well seeing as you do actually have an outside area of some description, why not train your girl to toilet there now so that she is very used to it before the pups arrive.  You could keep her out of the mainstream street, even if its just for a couple of weeks whilst the pups are so incredibly vunerable.  Then you only have your other dog to disinfect.  You can train dogs to go to the toilet anywhere if you really want them to.  Guide dog pups have to learn to spend in a 6ft x 6ft metal pen on concrete!

Unless she literally toilets directly on the pavement outside your house, I would also be concerned about her dripping down the street or if she has had a section the physical effort of having to go for a walk to go to the toilet, let alone the infection risk of her squatting low on a public pavement.  It would be much more hygenic for her to go somewhere where you could clean regularly.  I think parvo is probably the least of your problems tbh, its going to be more of a general infection risk.

We live in a town and raise litters but we do have an outside space/ garden. I think the most valid point so far is the muck and discharge that the bitch will leek after birth, it stained our patio and took quite a while to remove so wouldn't be very nice in a public area, and the diarrhea its usually a horrid black stuff from the afterbirth so not that nice.

Also I know a bit grim but.. a bitches vagina and teats will be very low and will probably touch the ground when she is toileting so you would have to be careful there as- well, people do raise litters in cities but not knowing your set up you need to ask yourself can your bitch toilet close to the house without upsetting the neighbors with her mess and smell and in a few weeks time the noise of the litter?

Thanks to the last 2 posters, that is v helpful.  We will try to get her to toilet there starting a while beforehand. 

>It wasnt so long ago when you informed me and several other experienced breeders that, despite years of knowledge, YOU were right and we were wrong about the best age to place our pups.

>And this is from someone who has never bred a litter in her life.

Yes, I still think it is too late for pups to go to their new homes at the ages you were suggesting.  This is based on *my* years of experience as a trainer and seeing pups of these various ages come to class, often with socialisation problems when breeders have kept them too long 'for their good'.  Also based on seeing pups of the same toy breeds coming at a younger age, and not having these same socialisation problems.  The perspective of the breeder is not the only perspective there is and is not more valid than the experience of others.

Just because I haven't bred a litter before, doesn't mean that what I say can't be valid.  How many years did slavery exist for, before it was abolished?  How many years before women got the vote?  For how long did we think it was effective to bleed people who were sick with leeches?  For how long did we yank dogs around on the lead before 'discovering' reward-based methods?  Just because you have done something one way for years, doesn't mean it is necessarily the best or right way.  But this is all a different subject and not related to this litter.

I lice in an urban environment in a linked terrace.

W go out mostly pavement walking every day whether there are pups or not.

The dogs will be regularly boosting their immunity to the local, nasties as will Mum to be to end of pregnancy, pups fed by their Mum will have immunity to anything she has been vaccinated or been exposed to, this lasts for at least a month or more like two.

So unless there is an outbreak of something locally, I carry on as normal.

I do not encourage my bitches to be away from their pups in the first weeks after they are born, and certainly prefer not to walk them at all for at least 3 weeks when they are concentrating on their puppies who are wholly dependent on her, by this time the pups are in the same room that the other dogs use( kitchen).

I do not practise any major disinfection unless I or visitors have been to a doggy event, other than hand washing with an antibacterial hand-wash.

Your main problem is more likely to be rearing facilities unless you have a toy breed or a whole room for the pups use) for the puppies and effect on neighbours (it's one reason I prefer to have winter litters as the latter is less of an issue with darker mornings and cooler days.

I have never managed to keep my medium size breed pups happy in an indoor puppy pen full time past 4 1/2 - 5 weeks, they need to be able to play outdoors (with some form of shelter so they can play and rest (without you having to be a yo-yo), for fresh air, exercise, habituation to the world around them, to form correct toileting associations etc. 

A litter can not only be very messy and create a lot of smells ;) and very noisy.

Moving away from home to the country with them for several weeks is nto going to be very practical when that is just the time new owners will be wanting to visit and see the pups in their home environment, and just at the time when they need more exposure to new things not less. 

> Just for your information, it is very common for bitches to squat and deliver pups outside unexpectedly and often in the dark, whilst relieving themselves.

When my girls are in labour (can be 24 hours or more) they are asking to go out to pee every 15 minutes at times and half Myka's most recent litter were delivered outside the whelping box, two of them outside with a towel over my or hubby's shoulder, and one from her first, her mother was the same, but only had one outside from her first two litters.  Inka thankfully played ball and had all hers inside.

My girls are eating between 4 and 6 times their normal food, and drinking a similar amount (as much as the other 4 do put together, and what I put in their food.  This all has to be regularly eliminated, and their toilet can be less than solid for the duration if like mine they clean up after their pups for a month or more.

I have a bitch here who if she can help it, will nto poo in the garden, in fact after the pups were born in her first litter who refused to do so for 2 days, but finally relented for the duration that I didn't take her out. 

Also initially most bitches need to be taken out almost by force, and i suspect going out of the House would be upsetting for them.

Also there is the issue of security, do you really want to advertise to the whole street that you have pups at home, having puppies stolen is not unheard of.  Even when my pups are playing outside they cannot be seen from the path/front door.

> For how long did we think it was effective to bleed people who were sick with leeches?

Doctors (and vets) have 're-discovered' the effectiveness of leeches as a treatment ;)

> Just because I haven't bred a litter before, doesn't mean that what I say can't be valid

I don't breed and never will, so I'm reading this with just a logical viewpoint :)

I would only ever consider breeding if I could offer the bitch and her puppies the best (or as near to that as I could). Breeding isn't compulsory. As your set-up, from what I have read, doesn't sound ideal, why can't you wait until you can offer better facilities to your bitch and puppies ???

Daisy

I would only ever consider breeding if I could offer the bitch and her puppies the best (or as near to that as I could). Breeding isn't compulsory. As your set-up, from what I have read, doesn't sound ideal, why can't you wait until you can offer better facilities to your bitch and puppies ???

Daisy is quite right in what she says.
Sorry but your set up is just not the best for either Mum or pups.
I have a large breed, probably larger that yours but even so the room needed for a litter is very important. By 4 weeks of age my pups are out in the outside run for most of the day. They need the room to move and play. Your home by the sounds of it would not be able to accomodate this. Pups need to see a lot of things before they leave Mum, grass, sky, wind, outside noises, dustbin men etc...Mum needs somewhere private to toilet both during labour and after. The street is just not viable for at least a week. My bitches also need to go out to pee very often during labour, and there is nothing better than a trot round the garden for moving a slow whelper along! Your neigbours will have to be considered too. A litter of 8, 4 week old pups create a huge amount of noise ..believe me!...and a 6am rise with lots of yelling pups is not everyones idea of joy! I would be very wary of moving a litter at 4 or 5 weeks of age. Most bitches will have lots of immunity to your local bugs and germs and will pass these on to the pups but to lift them up and plonk them in a new environment would expose them (Bitch too ) to a whole new lot of germs that Mum just is not immune to. If you could move to your friends for 6 months to aclimatize Mum to the area and aquire some immunity to the local bugs then it would be best, failing that walk her regularly in the area before you mate her and move her out there as soon as possible.
I am not saying it is immpossible to do but there are huge drawbacks, I would say better to wait untill you can give your very best to them.
Aileen

Thanks for some more balanced (and less reactive!) feedback.

I accept that it's not ideal and I do hope that we will have moved by then because some things would be challenges.  I think I am just panicking about what happens if we haven't found anywhere to move to by then, but chances are we will have, as it is many months away.

I'm reassured to hear that disease is unlikely to be an issue due to mum's immunity.

I accept the points about toileting during labour and needing a more private area than the street.  I hope to get mum used to using our outdoor area beforehand and hose it down frequently to keep it clean.

However, I'm not sure about the points about the amount of inside room - we don't have a ginormous house, but just because we live in an urban environment without much of a garden, doesn't also mean that our house is necessarily too small too.  It would mean one room being more or less taken over by pups, but isn't it desirable for socialisation reasons to have pups right in the centre of the family activities and not living outside somewhere?  It might make it more miserable for us humans but I'm sure it's better for socialisation.  I know the woman who bred our first dog had her litter in her open-plan kitchen, where the family ate and I thought this was great because they were exposed to so much there.  So, although it has the potential to be smelly, that also makes me think that if you are very clean as a breeder and are constantly cleaning up after pups, you can keep things in a bearable state to live in, even if you must also live in the area where the pups are.

I have one more question:  How do you manage other adult dogs in the household and how long after whelping do you let them have access to the nursing mum and pups?  Do you keep them separate for 1 week, more?  Do you see how the nursing bitch reacts to the other dog and adjust accordingly?  When are other adults in your household allowed to meet the pups?

How do you manage other adult dogs in the household and how long after whelping do you let them have access to the nursing mum and pups?  Do you keep them separate for 1 week, more?  Do you see how the nursing bitch reacts to the other dog and adjust accordingly?  When are other adults in your household allowed to meet the pups?

Well that depends on your bitch, it is her shout and mine really do not want the others anywhere near their pups for the first 4 weeks and still like to be able to control who and when the others mingle. I take your point about socialization but jusy having one room is not socializing them, my pups are born in my lounge and at 3 weeks moved into the dining room in a large pen then at aprox 4 weeks they go outside into a huge covered run for most of the day but come back inside at night. They then come into the lounge in two's to potter about in the evenings. They have a variety of expieriences in the garden with the chance to walk on grass, gravel, slabs, tarmac etc.. they play around the garden only being shut in the run for sleeps and when I am not able to monitor their activities while loose in the garden!! I live in a town but have the outside area to accomodate a litter, that is the crux of your problem, not the urban environment as this can be worked round but the space for pups to grow and learn and the chance for Mum to play with safety with her babies. I would be very wary of moving a whole litter at 4 or 5 weeks old just when weaning is at it's hight and a change of environment/water and new bugs will be able to take advantage of pups vunerablility.
Aileen

It would mean one room being more or less taken over by pups, but isn't it desirable for socialisation reasons to have pups right in the centre of the family activities and not living outside somewhere?  It might make it more miserable for us humans but I'm sure it's better for socialisation.

This I definitely agree with and the difference between my latest litter (reared entirely indoors -no way was I moving them outside during all the heavy snow we had, so they just had short visits outside for play) -and previous litters, is huge. These are far, far better, no noises etc bother them, whereas all the others that were moved out to a kennel can still flinch at things even as adults. I will never use a kennel again having experienced the difference.

Of course, it meant half the house being taken over, and it was murder when 9 pups got diarrhoea from a food that didn't agree with them, but it was worth all the extra work. We never used a puppy pen either  (too small an area) -except to put the Christmas tree inside to keep that safe.

I'm not saying nobody should ever use kennels, and breeds vary a lot (mine need more socialisation that any other breed I know of) just that I will never go back to it.

However I could not have kept this litter inside had I had neighbours, due to the noise. There were times I had to switch subtitles onto TV programmes to be able to watch as you couldn't hear a thing when the pups started their demented seagull noise which all do at times.

This is why I choose to give my pups the oportunity to spend time both indoors and out and to see and feel so many different things. The combination of indoor/outdoor living suits best as you have now enjoyed with your latest litter Marianne.
Glad you tried it as it is fun..and the demented seagull's noises great when you are on the phone to a prospective puppy owner ;) ;) LOL
Aileen

The combination of indoor/outdoor living suits best as you have now enjoyed with your latest litter Marianne.

Yes it's of course vital the pups get to run around outdoors as well. :)

In my case with the only way outside being through the kitchen the new Mum has to go out past the other dogs every time she goes out and they have to be restricted to the kitchen while she is in the living room which is only separated by a door and baby gate.

Mine move into the kitchen at two weeks if Mum is relaxed about the other dogs, or at three weeks in the case of Myka who does not like the others taking an interest.

Mine are entirely in the Living-room and kitchen for at least 4 weeks, I am not in the least house-proud, but you cannot imagine just how smelly it gets once pups are older than this. 

You need somewhere to put them while you clean and disinfect their indoor quarters, leave to air and dry, and ditto for their outside area.

Mine is a medium size breed and I normally have litters of 4 - 7.    Pups also need fresh air and to experience the outdoors, as much as the comings and goings inside the house which they will have had exclusively for the first 4 - 5 weeks.

My pups would much rather spend a goodly part of their waking time outdoors, and are only happy indoors for short periods or when sleepy, having a cuddle etc (they make their displeasure known loudly, it sounds like a flock of demented seagulls, the volune is high and carries, and is almost impossible to ignore) .

As you say the other dogs have to be considered too (five in my case), and having a litter free to roam in the hosue would be impossible and unkind to the oldies, and to Mum for that matter.  So pups need to be restricted in and out of the house.

Whilst I agree with the others about walking a bitch round the streets to toilet just after having puppies in not the best situation, I understand you are going to try to train to your private outside area which would be best for the short time.
I just wanted to let you know what I did with my meduim sized litter of a medium sized breed.  My bitch chose not to have her pups in her lovely, warm whelping box set up in our bedroom and instead decided to start whelping in the cupboard under the stairs next to all the stinky wellie boots.  This was soon set up as a nursery for her babies and there they stayed for the next 4 weeks(the door was taken off).  After the 4 week mark, they were getting too big and active and stinky for their smaller space so they got moved to the utility area at the rear of the kitchen.  This gave them access to our small patio/chipped area(the rest of the garden is up some stairs which were not conquered till about 6 weeks) during the day but my back door was open constantly to let them in/out of their bed area.  Don't you have access to your outside area from your kitchen/house somehow?  I actually would buy a pup from you before buying one which had grown up in a barn in the middle of no-where.  My pups were used to loads of noise, activity, visitors, animals, and traffic which they wouldn't have got in the countryside so much.  Swings and roundabouts, I suppose.
All the best for you litter.
PS  All this hassle and she's not even mated yet!!

Hi thanks.

Yes, there is direct access to the outside area from inside where the pups would be.  I guess I just thought it would be too cold for them, as the litter won't arrive till October time and would probably go to new homes mid-December.  (That's if madam does come into season as and when required and if all goes well with the mating...!)  The outdoor area is walled in on almost all 4 sides (only a door-sized gap in it) so could actually be a good outdoor puppy pen in itself.

Yes, I know she's not even mated yet, but it really pays off to think about everything in advance and to try to imagine what it's going to be like.  I do terrify myself in the process, but at least I will be less likely to be overwhelmed.

I'm really hoping we will move some time in the next few months or so.  We view a few properties a week and I'm always imagining a litter in them so, if we do manage to move, it will actually be to a pretty ideal place for pups. 

Rabid, I am asking this with no ulterior motive. Is there any reason that means you cannot leave the breeding for this season? ( ie age of bitch) then all the stress that you are experiencing when trying to make more appropriate arrangements  would not be a problem as hopefully you will have found a new home.

All the best whatever you choose to do.

Yes, it is due to the age of the bitch.  She will be 4yo at time of pregnancy and whelping and it will be her first litter.  So it is a now-or-never thing.

However, we do still have time to move and settle in, as she's not due in season until July, possibly August.

What are you going to do if you suddenly have to move during pregnancy or while the pups are around ?
Aileen

Why would I suddenly have to move during pregnancy??  We would have moved before that or decided not to move at all.

>What are you going to do if you suddenly have to move during pregnancy or while the pups are around ?

We had to move house (no option due to job) on the day of whelping! That was 'interesting', to say the least.

Moves don't always go to plan. It took us one full year to complete on the house we now live in! We had assumed it would take around 3 months, as had the solicitors. Yet problems kept appearing.

We had to move house (no option due to job) on the day of whelping!  That was 'interesting', to say the least.
Ah but YOU knew what you were doing!

I don't know if this helps if you find it difficult to train your bitch to toilet in your small outside area(as lots of dogs just won't go on concrete will they)-but I had a similar problem training my Aussie bitch to go outside when she was at work with me in my grooming salon as there was no outside area except for a concrete alleyway with a tiny area of earth just big enough for her to stand on next to a wall.I had to buy a length of turf,place that on the earth and syringe some of her wee on it and using a clicker,treats and patience she learnt to go on the turf which was then gradually faded till she now reliably goes straight out to the patch of earth and wees.
I agree with Cracar that your puppies are likely to be very well socialised-good luck.

Hi Helen, that's v helpful, thanks.