Hi,
My daughter's Golden Retriever puppy died after about 4 weeks as a result of a reaction to the kennel cough vaccination. The (free) 28 day insurance have refused to pay the £2800 cost of the puppy and the vets fees. Can she claim from the breeder instead?
Cheers,
Stan.

Why should the breeder be liable? 

Which insurance company did she have?

No - what did the breeder do that was wrong?

It's neither the insurance company nor the breeder who should pay if the vaccine was the cause -it's the vaccine manufacturer. The vet needs to contact them with all info.

Why would a puppy be given a kennel cough vac. With marianne, vaccine manufacturer

£2800 for a Golden Retriever Puppy- I have a very nicely bred Golden, bought from a well known, respected breeder and I didn't pay anything like that figure!!

That figure includes the vet's fees - that must account for the £2000 bit.

Silly me! I read it as £2800 puppy and vets fees on top! :)

Why have they refused to pay out?
So sorry for the puppy :(

No it;s not the breeders fault.  Why will the insurance not payout?

I have heard of a few times recently when insurance companies are initially refusing to pay ,often because of tiny nit picking reasons, but when pushed they do pay up.  Do you have legal cover with your household insurance?  If so it might be a good idea to get the legal team on to the question, and they will be able to push the insurance company and the vaccine manufacturer/vet.

I am surprised that a puppy has been given the kennel cough vacc, we don't even give it to our adults unless its needed, was this quite a young puppy? The breeder is deffo not at fault and should not give any money back.

All medication has some sort of risk in using it whether it be a minor reaction i.e. a rash or a much bigger reaction like your daughters puppy. You need to talk to the manufactures to find out what could have happened, i.e. was it suitable to give or if this is a terrible unforeseen accident.

Stan
So sorry to hear that, must have been a terrible shock.
Who gave the kennel cough vaccine to the puppy?
Was the puppy in 100% good health when  it was administered?
It would be wotrth contacting Canine Health Concern, I will come back with the link.

please contact them http://www.canine-health-concern.org.uk/

This is very very sad.

I'm a VN and it is often advised puppies have a KC vacc now because its so prevalent. In fact lots of puppy classes wont accept a puppy until its had this done.

In my years at work I have never heard of this sort of reaction. Awful.

Do they know what happened? Have your vets shone and light?

Also insurance companies must give reason for not accepting a claim so find out why, and sometimes a decision can be overturned.

The breeder should not accept any responsibility for this, they didnt give the vacc etc.

x

I think the reason for not paying out is to do with the wording they will pay out for illness or injury, an allergic reaction probably isn't covered by either. But to be honest I wouldn't give up and would talk to the KC again, is the vet so sure it was the Kennel cough vaccine? What reaction happened? Could the vet just put down which organs or respiratory conditions caused the pup to pass that way it would be classed as illness. The vets report has obviously not done our OP any favours, I'd ask for a more detailed re-write and send it off again.

I feel so sad for the OP's daughter, it's tragic, but as others have said it's not the breeders fault, the breeder must be devastated if told yet, poor little pup. I would also be contacting the vaccine suppliers, the vet should help with this.

The kennel cough vaccine can be given as early as 3 weeks, but I also wonder why it was given, surely new pup isn't going in the kennels so soon, with the other vaccines, wormer and flea treatments perhaps it was a case of system overload, the immune system couldn't cope.

I would see about a different swing on the vets report to the insurance company.

So sorry.

is the vet so sure it was the Kennel cough vaccine?

And if he is, it's his duty to report it!

Thank you all so much for your replies. I will let my daughter see them.
The reason the vaccine was given is that they had already booked a 2 week cruise and the pup had to go into kennels. Unfortunately we couldn't have had him at our house as we have 2 cats who would probably have left home.
Their vets phone was on answer-phone, out of hours, so they contacted the vets I use for our cats and were advised, after examination and about 3 hours at the surgery to take him to the animal hospital at Solihull where he died during the night. The autopsy stated a reaction to the kennel cough vaccine. It was, they said, a million to one chance.
The pup cost £500 the rest are vets and hospital fees including overnight.
Symptoms were acute breathing difficulties. He had been perfectly well up until the breathing difficulties started during that evening, 4 days after the vaccine was administered.
This was their first dog so they have no idea who should pay or what to do. They assumed he was covered by the 28 day free insurance given by the Kennel Club. The insurance company claim they were not covered because they collected the pup on the 11th December but the insurance wasn't activated until the 15th. This was due to postal delays thanks to Royal Mails failure to put on more staff for the Christmas period!
The distress to my daughter and son-in-law and grandchildren can be imagined. We all spent a very sad and upset few days and indeed still are.
Thanks again for your concern and advise.
To be continued......................

I had to have KC vaccine given when I exported a puppy to Australia last year, so it isn't unusual to give it to puppies.

I am so sorry to hear of your daughters loss - I cannot imagine what she's going through.

If they collected pup on 11th Dec - when was he vaccinated/die?

£500 for a GR pup is very cheap - were they totally happy with the breeder etc?  I personnally wouldn't have sold a puppy to people who I knew were going away so soon after taking puppy and the prospect of it going into kennels - if necessary, I would have had it back here for a couple of weeks.

The KC are encouraging breeders to activate insurance prior to pups leaving for their new homes - can easily be done on-line, so perhaps this is a loophole to be aware of. 

>The KC are encouraging breeders to activate insurance prior to pups leaving for their new homes

Admittedly it was a long time since I bred my last litter, so not much use to the OP, but I activated their KC insurance by phone just before each pup left.

the pup on the 11th December but the insurance wasn't activated until the 15th. This was due to postal delays thanks to Royal Mails failure to put on more staff for the Christmas period!

A pup is supposed to be covered as soon as it leaves the breeder, it is a shame that the breeder did not tell your daughter to activate the insurance by phone from the moment they got home, I used to activate the insurance from the day of pick up as I liked a pup insured for the journey from a - b, but the KC changed the rulings and only the owner can activate as they take bank details etc ready for if they continue with the KC insurance after the free period.

g1gj, check with the CAB or a solicitor the insurance I think should be covered from the date that your daughter signed the form not necessarily from when they received it and activated it, there is no need for a 'thinking' period or awaiting vet reports this type of insurance is normally activated immediately on trust and looked into afterwards if a claim is made, the transition period normally doesn't matter as nothing usually happens to a pup during those few days of transition, so the date received is good and we know they did receive it, so no contest there,  I'm pretty sure your daughter is still covered otherwise what is the point in dating and signing the slip?

Just get someone to check that point please, might be wrong, sorry if I am, but if I'm right you can claim. :-)

> A pup is supposed to be covered as soon as it leaves the breeder, it is a shame that the breeder did not tell your daughter to activate the insurance by phone from the moment they got home, I used to activate the insurance from the day of pick up as I liked a pup insured for the journey from a - b, but the KC changed the rulings and only the owner can activate as they take bank details etc ready for if they continue with the KC insurance after the free period.

Actually that's changed now - breeders can activate the KC cover notes at the time of sale or up to 7 days in advance of the pup leaving the breeder. That's what it says on my most recent book of KC cover notes issued in January anyway.

Another point - My daughter's Golden Retriever puppy died after about 4 weeks - insurance may have gone over the 28 days

So sorry for the loss of this puppy

Is your insurer refusing the claim only due to dates; ie no policy in place at the time of treatment?

Can you clarify your dates: form signed 11th Dec, start date 15th Dec, when was the injection given?

Presumably those missing days are relevant to the claim.  As someone else has already said, the insurer would usually start cover on the date the form was signed but that might be difficult to argue unless there is something to that effect on the application form, or unless there is an option to choose a start date which the insurer had ignored.  Just because they usually, doesn't mean they have to and I guess the insurer may say that if the start date was wrong then your daughter could have changed it when she received the documents.  I've had a look through the policy and can find no reason to refuse the claim based on their stated benefits and conditions so it would be shame if the disputed date is the only reason.  I'd say it's worth pursuing but do double check the dates

Actually that's changed now - breeders can activate the KC cover notes at the time of sale or up to 7 days in advance of the pup leaving the breeder. That's what it says on my most recent book of KC cover notes issued in January anyway.

I'm glad that has changed back, I guess they realised the error after many of us complained, it was a silly change of rules. What a travesty that the breeder didn't activate on departure then.

What a travesty that the breeder didn't activate on departure then.
What a travesty that the breeder let the puppy go when the family had a holiday booked!  I've kept many a puppy for extra weeks when an ideal family already had a holiday booked.
Accepting that we only have one side of the story, my support for the breeder is diminishing.  :(  Cheap puppy, doesn't know how to operate puppy insurance, happy for it to go into kennels so young.............

My thoughts exactly Westcoast- a very sad situation. Poor puppy :(

> breeder let the puppy go when the family had a holiday booked

Did they actually mention that to the breeder?

It might be worth contacting the insurance ombudsman.

What a travesty that the breeder let the puppy go when the family had a holiday booked!

I agree, if the breeder knew, I wouldn't be able to bare the thought of a pup so young in kennels, but maybe the breeder didn't know, or maybe the daughter didn't ask? Or maybe due to unforeseen circumstances the breeder couldn't have the pup back at that time.

I've always had my pups back when there are holidays due as do many of us, especially within the first year of a pups life if they have no family to go to, I always make it clear that I can be first choice always. But, there are different types of breeders who don't offer that lifetime of support, maybe this was one, maybe not.

Such a terrible shame for the poor pup, but who is to know these things will happen, there are always what if's, if the pup had been one of ours it would have been staying with us and not needed that kennel cough vaccine, but then it could have had the same serious reaction 4 years on at a kennel stay, even a vet probably can't say what caused the reaction to kill, was it just that vaccine or an accumulation of too much too young?

So, so sad.

After re-reading your post - if it was an allergic reation to the Kennel Cough Vaccine, I would have thought the pup would have shown some kind of distress/symptoms of reaction before 4 days especially if he was having breathing difficulties.  Is there anything else that could have triggered such a reaction?

So many things wrong about the whole situation really.  If I was collecting a new puppy, I would want to spend some quality time with it during the first few weeks not go on holiday!  If you had a holiday planned, why not book a puppy that would be ready on your return or soon afterwards?  No consideration appears to have been given to the puppy.

My dogs never go into kennels - is there a minimum age pups can go into kennels?  Again it is something I would be reluctant to do to any dog let alone a very young puppy - a bad experience could have had a bad affect in many ways.

Sorry for being critical - but I really think the daughter should have thought the situation through thoroughly before committing to purchasing a puppy.

I wonder how the breeder feels?  If it were a pup of mine, I'm sure I would be beside myself with anger etc.

It is a horrible situation, my thoughts are with you. Any kennels that I now would not consider taking a puppy until 6 months of age, at least,  as this would be to distressing for them.

> I've kept many a puppy for extra weeks when an ideal family already had a holiday booked.
>

yep me too and have twice had puppies back while they went as it was a couple of months after them leaving, but still far too young so happy to have them back for a while.

Very sad...poor puppy

I think this one will be open ended unfortunately. The breeder did nothing wrong, the vet administered the vaccine in good faith. The manufacturer is sure to have a disclaimer tucked away somewhere particularly if 99.9% of dogs have no problems with it and the KC are very strict with their insurance dates. The pup has to be with the breeder when its taken out. Activated on the day of sale or before. Even a day over is too late.

Absolute tragedy.

The manufacturer is sure to have a disclaimer tucked away somewhere particularly if 99.9% of dogs have no problems with it

I wouldn't bet on it -people have been paid in situations like these if they just hassle the companies enough but above all the vet must report the incidence and the proof. Apart from the poor pup and poor owner, for future pups' sake, the manufacturers NEED to know when things go wrong.

one of my clients had a 6yr old bitch boostered last year, she died later the same day. The vaccine manufacturer asked for the dog the next day but she had already buried it..:(

I know someone who brought a pup a few months ago and that pup was given a puppy vacc jab and had a reaction and was taken in royal vet college for a fortnight. Petplan refused to pay initally saying breeder didnt activate insurance in time but they had. The buyer was a lawyer and petplan agreed to pay when pushed. So def worth getting legal advise.

Possibly the puppy purchaser did not tell the breeder that they were going on holiday and if she did, maybe the breeder offered to have the puppy back for the holiday but the new owner would not travel to take the pup back there. People go the length & breadth of the country to buy what they want but often (generalising here) won't travel 2 hours to a reunion or to get rid of the dog. I know that neither of those circumstances apply here but maybe the breeder did offer to board the pup. A lot of condemnation goes on on this site. Only one side of the story is ever known.

I have given my daughter the login details for this forum and she will no doubt clear up some of the facts when she gets back over the weekend.
I'm pretty sure the breeder didn't offer to have th pup back for the holiday period, but maybe they didn't know about the holiday. I can't really answer that one. They are only about half an hours drive away so distance wouldn't have been an issue.
The pup was about ten weeks when this happened and would have been 12 weeks at the start of the holiday.
I'll leave it there and let my daughter (Sarah) continue with this when she gets back.
Thank you all once again for all your advise and sympathy.
Cheers,
Stan.

Sorry to hear this tragic news.  As others have said on here the vaccine manufacturers should pay out, my last dog died aged 3 years after an adverse reaction to his booster and the vaccine manufacturer paid all costs.  For a puppy so young, the least they can do is to pay vet fees and the cost of the puppy.  You might have to be persistent just do not let them fob you off with excuses.

It does actually state on the KC insurance that the insurance has to be activated before the puppy leaves the breeder.  It is the breeder who has to do this not the new owner.  So sorry to hear of your sad loss.

Im not sure what brand of KC vaccine the pup had but I found this for the Nobivac KC vaccination,

"Do not administer in conjunction with other intranasal treatments or during antibiotic treatment. No information is available on the safety and efficacy from the use of this vaccine with any other except the live vaccines of the Nobivac series against canine distemper; canine contagious hepatitis caused by canine adenovirus type 1; respiratory disease caused by canine adenovirus type 2 and canine parvovirus disease. It is therefore recommended that no other vaccine should be administered within 14 days before or after vaccination with Nobivac KC.
In case antibiotics are administered within one week after vaccination, the vaccination should be repeated after the antibiotic treatment is finished."

http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Intervet_Schering-Plough/Nobivac_KC/-29511.html

Is it possible that the pup would have had its last normal vaccination within this two week window?

I collected my pup on 5th December and it was done then and there for him whilst we were still having tea and welsh cakes. But i recall KC only covering for accidents not death due to illness?

>Is it possible that the pup would have had its last normal vaccination within this two week window?

I thinkyou might be minunderstanding the manufacturer's instructions; where it says "It is therefore recommended that no other vaccine should be administered within 14 days before or after vaccination with Nobivac KC it means that no vaccine other than Nobivac vaccines should be given within 14 days. The usual Nobivac DHP/L vaccine is all right.

has the activation requirement changed?  I sold a pup who was very ill within a week - some sort of reaction to food - and whilst the new owner hadn't activated the insurance they said that it was automatically activated as they bought the pup.  They wrote to me for confirmation of health of him and the other pups and paid up.

Seems as though the KC are updating their policy on the go, it's constantly changing.

At my last litter, the breeder was not allowed to activate anymore,
Then we've got the breeder has to activate now,
Then we've got only covered for accident
Then we've got automatically activated as pup purchased,

That's just in this short thread, confused? I am, I think it just depends on who you speak to, to be honest.

Why don't you just get your own insurance starting on the day you pick up the pup, that way you know your covered and what for, without relieing on other people, who might not do it or forget, or do it on the wrong day or the KC have moved the goal posts again!

I've now changed to petplan so I can activate on line as soon as they pick up the pup...

KC's insurance you activate yourself online as well, exactly same as PetPlan. Well at least you did in December!!
---- Yep, you still do, see here: http://www.kcinsurance.co.uk/breeder