Thought I had seen it all until we went to a local open show on Sunday. Our judge for both toy and utility, I was told has been judging and showing for quite a lot years. Showing a hairless breed and a full coated bredd when on the table she asks "is it a dog or a bitch" I would assume that on the hairless breed it would have been most obvious!!! OK she may just have been asking but then when told the coated was a dog you could have shown a dog with one or even no testicles as she did not check!!!! This is definately some of the worst judging I have seen.

I heard about this judge from a friend, who shows Toys!

I can understand the judge asking the sex as it is just a way to make contact like asking the age or saying good morning but surprised if the dogs were not checked as it is almost impossible to miss knowing when you are checking the state of the muscles in the back of the leg the testicle can be clearly felt on the back of the fingers particularly in the smaller dogs. Are you saying this judge did not feel down the hind legs that is shocking as so many small breeds have faults it the construction particularly at the knee.

We had this once a a champ show many years ago, 6 of us in the class, the judge seemed very disapointed when going over the the dogs, then made her choice, started her critique on the first three and said out loud that she has never seen a class of dogs before where none of the tesicals had desended, the steward reminded her that this was the puppy bitch class !!
As far as i know that was her last appointment

Peanuts

Poor soul, I hope I never get that confused had she already done the dogs or was she only judging one sex - hope the latter or she really had lost it.

I went to an open show where we were judged by someone in the breed. We were 2nd in the ring.
Our judge watched much of the first breed then wandered off.
When our ring was empty our judge was nowhere to be seen, not at lunch, and was located over an hour late.

Then the judge started the puppy class... First person put their dog on the table and our judge went around to the back of the table necessitating  'pushing' the handler out of the way, the pup got unsettled so the judge set up the pup and gave it what I call 'a full medical', by which time the pup was rather upset.
Off the table the handler was asked to move her dog and whilst doing so the judge followed on behind causing the handler to look round and try to give the best side view..the judge followed behind! It was like a comedy sketch.
Then after repeating this performance, the judge took the rosettes from the table and went over to the exhibits and issued them as they stood saying 'well done'.
The steward ( who was having kittens) took them back and asked the judge to line them up as per KC rules.
Next class judge forgot seen dogs and after repeating the performance the steward had to retrieve the rosettes and sort it out.
An award was given to a male in a bitch class (wrongly entered but had obvious 'reasons' why it shouldnt be placed), all movement was accompnied by the judge following the exhibit around the ring with the handlers looking over their shoulders and finally the steward (who deserved a medal) had to tell the judge what Best opposite sex meant.

It was funny.

She had done the dogs first!!

Peanuts

lol i have often been asked at opens is it dog or bitch, i can remember once been asked - which breed please? !!!

Tooolz, that made me laugh - liquid lunch one supposes.

Peanuts - it does seem that the poor lady was perhaps without her grey matter, shame a loved one had not sorted the situation before she embarrassed herself unless, off course, she was also suffering from a liquid lunch.

fushang - must say I have never been asked what sex but I have a breed where it is obvious when the hound moves away, can imagine that with a close to the ground dog one may wish to ask although if they have been on the table you should know. Now as to what breed I have to admit there are times during a match when I also would liked to have asked that, particularly if the dog is of the small heavy coated type - you worry in case you are wrong and then realise the standard is not so very different anyway so you have no need to worry. The thing that really worries me when going over a breed I am not familiar with is do I look at the teeth or not as I am sure there are a few of the toy breeds that are not looked at and I would hate to upset some little scrap by peering in it's mouth.

About 9 or 10 years ago we were in AV Utility Puppy, a whole mixed bag of us, the first dog to be gone over was an Akita, the Judge (who judges groups at Ch shows) asked "does the Akita go on the table?" !!!!!!

I believe you should be able to tell from the head wether it is a dog or a bitch whatever the breed but if it is not obvious then that is part of judging, to check as you go over the dog...it is not a question that needs to be asked.

I also believe that ALL dogs mouths should be looked at irrelevant of breed..but thats just my opinion

> I also believe that ALL dogs mouths should be looked at irrelevant of breed..but thats just my opinion

I thought all dogs mouths were looked at? What breed is the exception?

I did have some one at a match once say
"oh I don't need to look at the Boxers teeth" 
I said "It's not just the teeth you should be looking at in the mouth, it's also the shape of the jaw"
She *corrected* me and said "yes but not in boxers, their mouths aren't important" ha ha ok then love! :-D

Pekes are the exception, but there may be others.?

I very rarely enter adults in AV classes.. but we had a small local show, which gets few entries, so... I entered Tia.. A good line up, I think possibly 5 in the class... judge Stood back and called "Flatcoat first"   Everyone in the line up looked around... there was no Flatcoat in the class... Then she looked and me and grumpily called... Will you bring your Flatcoat our for First please... The whole line-up including me, stiffled a giggle... Now, I may not have the best Labs in the world, but they do resemble our breed standard not the Flatcoat standard lol...

Just to Add.. Tia went BOB in the breed classes and took Gundog G2 ... :-)

Pekes are the only ones I know of (though I'm no expert), daft if you ask me, all dogs teeth and jaw should be checked for the correct bite for breed and any wry mouths I think. I am torn between laughter and horror at some of these stories!!!

Once in the group being judged by a top hound judge and she called out the "Greyhound first" - now I don't mind being beaten by a quality Greyhound but this one happened to be a Sloughi.

When I first did a Variety toy class many moons ago, I went to hold a pekes head in my hands to examine its facial features..." Dont you look in his mouth -he'll faint if you do" I was warned.

I got told never hold a pekes head, or there eyes will pop out!! lol

When I was a vet nurse, many years ago we were told not to scruff a peke as its eyes would pop out. In fact and this is many years ago, we would have pekes in whose eyes had popped out. However these days think that this is no longer the case.
Certainly our old Peke did not have any eye problems and until she died from cancer was a very fit dog.

It was the owner of a peke that told me off for looking at her exhibits teeth so cross was she that I have worried about it ever since, did know I needed to pick it up to check it's substance but was so upset by then I was worried I would drop it. Mind you I am more confident these days so I would probably say well I do check teeth but even so I would not want to upset a pup if no one had looked at them before.

Until the recent(ish) KC instructions to judges neither Pekes nor Pugs had teeth checked.  Can't comment on Pekes, but with Pugs if you can't see teeth poking out while mouth closed then the mouth is pretty much OK.  However, the convention not to check them may have come from self preservation by the judges - Pugs can be tremendously stubborn, and even though all of mine are taught from an early age to allow mouths to be opened the majority of them hit about 6 months old and start to look on teeth checks as a form of torture, or at best a personal insult.  They clamp their mouths shut and put up a tremendous wrestling match.  This is not due to any trauma or upset they have suffered, it just seems to be an age thing (they are the same about nail clipping).  Therefore I think perhaps  a lot of judges decided just to check visually or by running a thumb along, as wrestling with an unwilling pug on a table will mean the poor judge is covered in flying hair (pugs shed madly when upset or annoyed)

Its funny ive just remembered a avnsc last year, i got through to group 1 and the judge for bis asked me if he had gone over my dog before? which i replied no. He looked very puzzled and gave me this rotten look like i was lying, there was not any others of my breed there so i dont know what that was about!?!
Great thread :)

Think most judges know there own group(s) well enough although there will be exceptions, it is when you are asked to do a match or a class that involves breeds you are not so used to and you ask to be told what the breeds in the class are you study the standards and then you are faced with a number of small hairy dogs and have a struggle to tell one end from the other never mind identifying the actual breed. Well am talking tongue in cheek but I will hold my hand up and say sometimes I walk round a show and see a dog and think what on earth is that.

It is not just the small dogs either I remember being a bit confused when I first saw a Russian Black Terrier.

"does the Akita go on the table?"

answer: "No, he goes in the garden like everybody else"

sometimes I walk round a show and see a dog and think what on earth is that.

I've had a couple of those moments: one turned out to be a large Mexican hairless, and I haven't been able to figure out the other one at all, not for lack of trying either :)

I was at a show not long ago and had two boys in consecutive AV gundog classes. Cue rapid switch of dogs, numbers and back in the ring (sounds like nothing at all but as a newbie this takes up what is left of my concentration). Got sent to the side to hang about with my second supposedly seen dog...I wouldn't mind, but the second was much older, bigger and heavier, the other was a puppy, and I did have different numbers...and by coincidence they both placed 2nd :)

Jay15, that was the fault of the steward who should have told the judge - most judges concentrate hard on what they are doing and it is easy to make that sort of mistake. A steward should tell the judge what class they are on and point out any seen dogs and remind the judge how they were placed in the earlier class.

i was showing a tricolour corgi once in a avnsc class and the judge asked for the vallhund first please there was me a rottie, husky, oes, bsd and a pyrean mountain dog none of which look like a vallhund scarey thing is i won the group and rbis under the same judge, then again i hav seen judges try to go over them on the floor (12 inches at shoulder) i was second and had her on the table before she turned around haven given the first dog quite a scare. but bad judging is also seen in group rings i won the group with a puppy went into puppy group and the judge tried to give the puppy group to the pupp who had won group three i had the sense to tell the steward i was the group winner and stopped the steward stopped the judge from giving the rossette out and then gave it to me group 3 was a freind who realise what was happening then to add insult to injury went rbis then the same judge tried to give a diffrent pup bpis not me(was beaten by an adult for bis) agian steward stopped him again this is basics if a cc judge does not know this when exhibitors do what chance do we hav

the steward definitely noticed, Nova, but for whatever reason the communication between him and the judge was less than it should have been. I actually blamed myself, but as a new person who largely has only a rudimentary idea of what is actually going on other than standing my dog, running him up and down or in a triangle I get really nervous of calling any attention to us in case I am making another big mistake :( and believe me I could fill a book already. Here's my latest lesson--when lining up so that the rosettes can be handed out, it helps to stand facing the front like everyone else. Well, I said I was nervous. Now I can truly say I looked like an a*** too.

LOL, some of us continue to behave like newcomers for years for me the excuse is brain fade but I think most of us have our moments.

When I am stewarding it always amazes me that after a judge has done at least a half dozen classes exhibitors still come in the ring, line up in the wrong place, move incorrectly and if placed wander about with one demented steward (me) trying to attract their attention without interfering with the judge's sight line or concentration.

I had a judge ask me what he should place when choosing BOB from her line-up... I knew exactly how I would have placed.. but told her to ask her two preferences to move again... and thankfully she chose correctly... it was a toss up between a puppy (nearly 12months) or a very nice adult... the puppy was stunning, but didnt hold topline on the move... but a judge should NEVER ask a steward to make the decision

No of course not, it is the judges choice right or wrong, mind you there are times when you are glad it is not your problem.

I understand that judges are now advised to check pekes teeth. I don't feel so bad when I read all these posts someone should write a book about bad judging would be a best seller. I had fogotten but at a show a few years ago I had my dog on the table and the judge who is a breed judge was checking between the legs and says "He seems to be holding one up" Well my answer to her was "if he is it's a miracle because she is a bitch!!!" She did look rather embarassed and said she is quite prominent that's how she thought it was a dog.lol!

We were told to be careful towelling a Shih Tzu as their eyes could pop out, the idea still frightens the life out of me!

Our Crufts judge not so many years ago had to be continually reminded by the steward to do placings in each class.  The initial PD and JD dog classes were fine, but after that the judge "lost their way" (or mind!).  Each class the 1st and 2nd were called in after some inconsistent going over of the exhibits (some where not asked to move down and back, some where, some not een asked to move out at all), then the judge would return to the table sit down with a dazed expression and had to be asked by the steward to either dismiss the rest of the class without further placings, or place to VHC.  Now this was an experienced breed specialist of some 30 yrs of judging but it did make a point of the fact that maybe the KC need to introduce an upper age limit on Crufts judges.

> it did make a point of the fact that maybe the KC need to introduce an upper age limit on Crufts judges.

I know what you mean but I dont think age should come in to it....you can have a very competant 75 year old & a very incompetant 65 year old!!!!

>> it did make a point of the fact that maybe the KC need to introduce an upper age limit on Crufts judges.
> I know what you mean but I dont think age should come in to it....you can have a very competant 75 year old & a very incompetant 65 year old!!!!

OK I will rephrase it - maybe the KC should 6 months and no more prior to a judges CRUFTS appointment review each judge's assigned breed/breeds knowledge comprehensively by way of written, oral, and practical examination.  An annual review of judges soley for what the KC perceive to be still the "World's Greatest Dog Show" (mind you they should do this anyway - review judges competance for the breeds they are passed to judge maybe every 2 yrs).  Problem is when some judges get to their once in a lifetime CRUFTS assignment for their specialist breed they are well past their sell by date and often see it as an opportunity for one last chance of fame and put up whatever has the closest link to their own dogs regardless.  In some breeds it is not a true reflection of the BOB quality one should expect for CRUFTS, but unfortunately this is what the world sees and believes. 

As it is the breed clubs that start a judge on their judging career perhaps it should be up to them to end it. I agree that the age of a judge should not be the criteria (well I would wouldn't I)

Brilliant thread.  I had a very high profile judge judge our breed at a Champ show with CC's last year and he had obviously gone completely senile... he was completely flummoxed when I went to take my puppy dog into the challenge for best puppy dog (he'd come 3rd in Open Dog) and obviosuly thought I was going completely insane and promptly awarded it to the winner of the puppy dog class without even looking at my dog and to confirm my fears that he had indeed lost the plot he asked the owner of the dog he'd just given BOB to minutes earlier if she had got through to the group today!!!!!  The stewards were as good as useless too... just wish I'd complained about his inadaquacy then maybe he wouldn't still be awarding tickets now (to many breeds).  BIG SIGH!!!

>I had a very high profile judge judge our breed at a Champ show with CC's last year and he had obviously gone completely senile...

How about Health Testing for Judges  !?! :)

>it did make a point of the fact that maybe the KC need to introduce an upper age limit on Crufts judges.

Or a breathalyser test! ;-)

> Or a breathalyser test! ;-)

We had a judge last summer at an open show, but family has been "in" the breed for many years  and gives CCs in other breeds in the group.and she has judged a lot, who seemed completely flummoxed the whole time, turned away from dogs on table, insisted 2nd in one of the classes came in to the challenge before looking at the line up, generally ignored the Steward when he tried to steer her right.  The bizarre judging carried on with other breeds and to the group - competitors were leaving the ring looking perplexed!  When queried it with one of the committee I was told "She has been very ill and is taking medicinal canabis" :)

> Or a breathalyser test!

:)  We had a judge at SKC once who stank to high heaven of booze, and sweated  like a stuck pig the whole time.  There is also a judge racing up the ladder for the most breeds and groups he can garner in the shortest space of time who must have an optic attached like a drip, constantly p*****!  A Swedish friend phoned me after he had an assignment in Sweden and the competitors en mass actually complained to the show society about the stench, and the fact he was at times loosing his balance leaning over the dogs.  I sat on a ferry with him to Ireland last year and the whole journey he spent downing wine - the early morning ferry arriving at 6.00am and onto his judging appointment!!!

We were told to be careful towelling a Shih Tzu as their eyes could pop out, the idea still frightens the life out of me!

We towel our shiddies and never have any thought like this they are perfectly happy and love to roll around the towel with their head, so if their eyes were going to pop out they would be eyeless by now!!!LOL

I got told never hold a pekes head, or there eyes will pop out!! lol

Same happens to a guinea pig if you hold it by its tail.  Iwas told this as a child so it must be true!

Now this is true, one of my sisters Newfies put a paw on the head of a King Charles and an eye popped out she rushed him to have it put back and as far as we could tell he was none the worse for the experience.

thats a good one but guinea pigs dont have tails

thats a good one but guinea pigs dont have tails

Took me years before I worked that one out!