Trying to decide whether to have a 3rd litter from my reasonable quality bitch (quite a few BOB at open shows, has beaten JW winners etc, but never anything at a champ show), good temperament, very intelligent and trainable, healthy, would be 6 1/2 years when next in season, has just finished her season following the 2nd litter. 1st litter was 2 gorgeous boys 3 years ago, 2nd litter was my singleton girl that I keep moaning about in the food thread, bless her. So I don't think a 3rd litter would be overburdening my bitch would it? I never intended a 3rd litter, I think on the whole 2 is enough, but I just don't think the puppy is what I wanted, poor baby. The puppy might improve, but I don't think she'll ever do much at show and quite possibly won't be good enough to breed from.

So (assuming I can persuade hubby that 4 dogs is no worse than 3), do I mate my girl again and hope to get something better like the 1st litter, spending probably over £1000 by the time we've had stud fees, petrol, new puppy pen, progesterone testing, possible vet fees etc. Or do I pay what my friend reckons could easily be £2500 for a top kennel bitch puppy, if anyone will sell to me (I owned a fantastic quality dog so am known in the breed, but am only a novice when it comes to breeding). Or do I get a lesser quality bitch puppy from a medium size kennel that will still hopefully be better than the one I currently have (though she's going nowhere, she drives me mad but I love her!).

I know there's loads of variables and it's my (or hubby's) decision, but would be interested to hear other views. Hubby would probably prefer me to buy a puppy than mate my bitch and disrupt his comfortable lifestyle with a litter, haha (though I do practically all the work involved with the dogs), but hasn't heard my friend's estimate of how much a top puppy would cost!

To be honest if it was me I'd buy a pup, one good enough to do well at champ.shows. You could end up with a single dog pup next time no better than the last, but if you buy you have your pick. :)

Buy a pup, far easier!!! Take your time see what you like at the champshows and put your name down if you like the breeding, get to know the breeder..far easier!!

I would go with Marianne and KoB - and on  purely pragmatic note, you have more than enough on your plate at the moment with what's happening with your mum.

Have a look at whats going on at shows, look at lines - find which lines you prefer - then put yourself on those breeders' lists ... and it also gives you time to prepare OH for an addition to the family ;)

In all honesty buy in a quality bitch puppy.

My first bitch was OK, nothing more nothing less.  I mated her to super stud dog who regularly produced quality.  I got super dogs and OK bitches like their Mum.  I kept the best (still OK) bitch and mated her to another dominant stud dog with similar results.  I kept the best bitch from that litter (still just OK) and took her back to her Granddad - again super males and no improvement in the bitches.  The girl that I kept who looked promising at 8 weeks but only OK by 8 months.

It wasn't until I bought in a 3 year old quality bitch with quality stuff on both sides behind her, that I started to produce quality pups that put my affix on the map!

I would agree with the above posters... and in fact am having to do the same thing myself.. although for different reasons... My line is saturated with chocolate, and have backed myself into a corner where breeding is concerned.  So, we start again, on the waiting list for a yellow/black for the 1st time in 8 years  :-)

Whichever way you look at it, beginning again, is a better option that continuing to produce picky/bad eaters, again, possibly backing yourself into a corner..

you can always build a cosy kennel out back for hubby ;-)

I'm with everyone else, the cost of buying a really good quality puppy is nothing compared to the cost of campaigning a dog. I once worked out that I'd spent about £10k campaigning my first borzoi, why spend that on a 'reasonable' dog. Every dog costs the same to feed, I'd rather have the best possible :)  Plus of course buying one you get to choose, breeding you take what she produces :)

Well you know which option I would suggest to you, although I would be very wary of the prices you are quoting.

Some 'top kennels' never let a good one go so you could end up with a good affix on a poor puppy.

My priority would be one which has two MRI scanned 'clear' (you want to breed on from her presumably?) parents with heart and eye certificates...and all available to view!.

Some top breeders (and some not so top) are pretty fuzzy about the details on these matters but more and more you will wish you had started out with the offspring of AxA.

Then only buy one from someone who has a reputation for selling winners and not one offs  or cast offs- but those who are consistently letting others have them.

I think that search should keep you busy!

Some 'top kennels' never let a good one go so you could end up with a good affix on a poor puppy.

Don't they worry about a dog with their affix being seen in the ring if it isn't good enough? Doesn't look good, does it, if a poor dog with their affix is seen around the shows.

You'd be amazed how much it would happen. I would imagine most people in my breed will know I mean to show (and yes, breed if the puppy was good enough) so they'd be daft to sell me something rubbish. But it's awfully hard to find someone who will sell a really good bitch! I guess if I start looking now, by the time I have found someone who will sell and they have got a litter on the way, I'll have talked hubby round, haha!

Just out of curiousity, if it's easier to buy a good puppy, why do any of us breed? :-D

It's not easy to buy a good puppy - but it is possible. :)

I would say unless you personally know them, then don't necessarily look at the top kennel.  Look for a kennel that consistantly produces winners.  If it's a smallish kennel and they are producing quality on a regular basis, they can't keep everything that's nice and should be grateful to have an experienced exhibitor wanting one of their to show.

Take your time before you decide which kennel you want to go with and if you get a favourable responce, be patient. :)

I have to say that I think you should home your new puppy now.  The longer you leave it the harder it will be.  It costs as much to keep a poor quality dog as a good one and if you want to exhibit vaguely seriously, you can't have too many in the cuddle box! :)

Just out of curiousity, if it's easier to buy a good puppy, why do any of us breed?

Because we all dream that the next litter that we produce oh so very carefully will actually have The Winning Puppy pop out!! :o)

Just out of curiousity, if it's easier to buy a good puppy, why do any of us breed? :-D

Well yes but it depends on what you start with and how lucky you get, doesn't it. :) I started with a bitch that became a Champion (and the only reason I decided to breed from her was that she was doing so well at shows, otherwise I don't think breeding would even have entered my mind) and quickly bred winners. From my first litter, one won BP at Crufts, two others have their stud book numbers, one has an RCC. Second litter one CC winner, one RCC/ShCM/BIS winner, third litter 2 RCC winners etc. Now in my second breed it's early days yet so I keep my options open. My first bitch there is NOT showable (too big) but she came highly recommended from good lines, I mated her to a Multi Ch and the resulting pup (who has never been to a champ.show yet, my mentor has adviced me to let him fully mature first and wait until about 2) is very nice and several judges have given him excellent comments such as future ticket material -but until I KNOW he will do well at champ.shows, I'll keep my options open.

The thing is, I know EXACTLY how hard it is to try to work up from something either poor or half decent and get to good show quality from that, because I have done it with my cats. I had bred for years (approx. 14) when I discovered a genetic problem in my cats, had to neuter the best ones (that included Champions -in 2001 I had made up no less than 4 titled cats in the same year) and all I had to work with was non show quality -but healthy. As I had worked for years and had established my own line, I did not want to give up, so kept working with what I had. It took me 5 years (with roughly 3 litters a year) before I had something good enough to show and WIN with again. Which is why I wouldn't do it in dogs because a) it's harder to keep many and I'd never breed that many puppies and b) not having decades of my own breeding to save, buying would be so much easier. :)

I know it would be most sensible and hubby would mind me getting another puppy much less - but she's too cute and cuddly to let go, and I made the mistake of naming her after my Henry, so I can't lose her! And I don't want to be someone who rehomes dogs just because they don't win, even if it is the sensible thing. :-) She can still do rally obedience, she's great at that for a 7 month - first trial this weekend!

>>I have to say that I think you should home your new puppy now.  The longer you leave it the harder it will be.  It costs as much to keep a poor quality dog as a good one and if you want to exhibit vaguely seriously, you can't have too many in the cuddle box! 

And I don't want to be someone who rehomes dogs just because they don't win,
She hasn't started not winning and may well turn into a swan, but I was taught that if you are serious about improving, then you have to keep only the best. :)
But if she has a place doing rally obedience (what???) than that's great. :)

rally obedience a mixture of agility and obedience so I am told my agility group is planning to start one in the summer

I'm another who keeps everything -have lost of "useless" dogs and cats. :) Just can't do it but have to make sure all the time I can cope with what I have. Hubby is just as bad though!

I'd LOVE to do rally obedience with my cavalier, but there is nothing in my area. I think he'd be great for it.

Rally's brilliant, you have a course laid out with signs like 'turn left', 'about turn', 'call your dog, finish left', 'stop with dog in sit' 'dog in down, walk round dog' and so on (that's not the exact wording), and you get qualifying scores of Good, Outstanding, Ace etc and so many qualifying scores gives you a Title and then a Champion. You have 3 levels, the lowest level is all on lead so any dog that's passed their bronze can do it. Perfect for those of us with breeds that are pretty clever and obedience but haven't got the precision needed for formal obedience. Where are you Marianne? The Talking Dogs site is keen to get more rally going in places that don't have it yet.

> Just out of curiousity, if it's easier to buy a good puppy, why do any of us breed?

Hahahaa...just try and find one that Ive described :-)

> Don't they worry about a dog with their affix being seen in the ring if it isn't good enough? Doesn't look good, does it, if a poor dog with their affix is seen around the shows.

At those prices?  Business is business?
You can count on the fingers of one hand big winners that are sold to others.

A medium winner would do.... :-p

That's sad tooolz. :( For me, there is so much enjoyment in watching a dog I've sold do well in the ring.

> That's sad tooolz. :-( For me, there is so much enjoyment in watching a dog I've sold do well in the ring.

Tricky one this ....I do let them go sometimes and I do enjoy it but only to people I know REALLY well and have been waiting for a fair while.

We are under different pressures in the breed at the moment and everything I produce 'may' be the best health wise if not the POL so every single (bitch certainly) puppy I produce may be my future breeding animals, Ive just got to wait two (or possible three years now) to establish this.

The days of just picking my best looking pup has gone.

And people like me have no option but to show or breed from our mediocre animals if the big people won't sell a decent dog to us! (not you Tooolz as you do sell sometimes, but I know so many people who won't consider it)

To be fair, different breeds produce different sizes of litters.. Tooolz breed may produce 2 or 3 pups.. and top quality would almost always stay with breeder.. my breed could produce 10 pups, possibly 2 or 3 quality pups... breeder keeps the best, and would hope to see the other 2 in the ring... however, if the two that left us did better in the ring, that is brilliant.. it is still our breeding out there winning... much harder to achieve this with small litter breeds.. I can see it from both sides..

I have to say tooolz, I'm glad I'm not in your breed other than as a pure pet owner -and I take my hat off to you and other responsible breeders (the one I am wearing to get my pups used to people with hats!) because you don't have it easy!

Is it a big furry hat? :-D

Cheers :-)

> the one I am wearing to get my pups used to people with hats!)

LOL :-)

>> Don't they worry about a dog with their affix being seen in the ring if it isn't good enough? Doesn't look good, does it, if a poor dog with their affix is seen around the shows.
> At those prices?  Business is business?
> You can count on the fingers of one hand big winners that are sold to others.

Well I don't know what its like in other breeds but of the 3 Show Champion bitches I've bred, I've only owned one.   The first went to someone who was buying their first pedigree dog and they started showing until the pup was old enough to compete in agility, needless to say although she did do agility, the showing took over.    And the 3rd Sh.Ch. bitch went to friends of mine who'd 2 LM's before who had got Crufts qualified at the most, their bitch from me now has 7CC's and was BIS at the recent club show.

> Well I don't know what its like in other breeds

Its not like that in many breeds, for the reasons given above.

I started off with a reasonably good slightly long bitch (got her stud book number, won the odd class, but tended to be a middle placer in larger classes), out of a litter where her brother became a champion.

I mated her to a dog I admired that my breeder had imported, but being a total novice know in hindsight that I kept the wrong puppy.  I kept the most laid back sweet one as I had heard stories about how bitches can fight if they don't get on.

This one had traits I wanted but overall was probably not as good as her mother.,

I mated this bitch to a stylish dog half brother to her mother hoping for for a shorter coupled bitch, but her Dams substance.  The bitch I kept was lighter built than I wanted (as was his mother) and like Lucy's a nightmare to get to eat, if she had eaten she would have won more classes than she did, she got a lot of 2nds with comments of more body dn coat needed.

Due to her poor eating habits especially around seasons I mated her at just two years of age, to a top class dog with the same sire as my first home-bred bitch (her mother), hoping to get the positive results I had not got in the bitch I kept in the first litter.

In Hindsight this litter of 9 was a really quality litter, but I was one of those who haven't the room to keep many, and I let them all go, hanging out for a potential exhibitor with the last 'most special one', but ending up letting her go as a Pet.

Thankfully fate intervened and I had her back at 8 months.  This was Jozi who became my first champion, and she is the Kingpin of my breeding program, having produced as well as she did herself, with a champion daughter and grandaughter for me and nice ones for others.

I wish I could have been the person who had bought her as a puppy as my first dog, with the breeder hoping the owner might show ;)  As she was my fourth dog.

On the other hand I learnt a lot with the preceding 3 generations, and they were certainly of reasonable show quality.

I researched the hell out of the breed, waited and watched until bitch puppies of the right breeding came up.

These bitches were from people who show but seldom use great stud dogs, so when I saw that they had used dogs I wanted progeny from, I got in and bought a good bitch from them.
I do seem to have a knack of puppy picking so I got the best pup in both litters.Both have gone on to produce CC and RCC winners and every litter has had the quality I was looking for.
Luck plays its part of course but this can be mitigated with research. Both the bitches I bought in had excellent health clearances or I would have had to abandon and try again.

I was VERY lucky with my first dog who won a CC at 14 months and got his ShCM, just missed the JW because I hadn't heard of it and wasted 6 months with only about 3 shows, won First at Crufts twice etc. I was pretty lucky with my bitch too, although not of champ show standard she has won BOB about 6 times at open shows and beaten JW winners, and is consistently placed even though she is now 6 years old. And she has great health and temperament. But sadly my poor little puppy is a disappointment show-wise at present, though perhaps she will blossom late like her mum did. Hubby is very against 4 dogs, so I would have to rehome her which I really don't want to do, she's snuggled up against me so lovingly as I write this and I would really feel I'd betrayed her for the sake of a red rosette. I will still keep on the look out for a good kennel who will sell me a good bitch, but they are so hard to find - no wonder people take so many generations a lot of the time to breed up from the adequate bitches that are all anyone will sell.

> no wonder people take so many generations a lot of the time to breed up from the adequate bitches that are all anyone will sell.

That may be more the case in breeds that have small litters, but not so at all in breeds with larger litters and small gene pool breeders are desperate to get new people into the breeds with so often the nicest pups ending up never seen as no-one is interested in showing.  Older breeders that are looking at having to give up actively breeding dn showing and no-one to hand the baton onto.

Some breeders have a reputation for selling winners to others especially novices.

It is easy enough to work out who these people are when you look through the lists of winning dogs over a period of time and see which affixes regularly win not in the breeders hands.  One of my mentors was one such, has the breed record for number of champions owned or bred and most of them owned by other people.

It may take a novice breeder several generations to breed something good, as they do nto have enough knowledge and instinct for it at first.  Like I said in hindsight I would nto have kept the bitch I did in the first litter I bred etc.  Not just based on how they turned out, but based on what they were like as babies I would now choose differently.

There is a lot of luck involved, but if you can find a breeder who can tell you what they hope to achieve with a given mating and have stock you admire and which does consistently well, not just the odd dog doing a lot of winning, then they are worth waiting on, get to know them, learn from them etc, then they may be willing to entrust you with something worthwhile.

I don't look on my learnign expereince as a negative, in fact it is not good for one to realise it is no easy thing to breed dogs that are that bit better.

I've definitely fallen in love with the wrong breed! Smallish litters, huge gene pool (depending on health testing) and nobody big willing to sell to a novice. Oh well, I'll just keep researching and asking. :-)

> I don't look on my learnign expereince as a negative, in fact it is not good for one to realise it is no easy thing to breed dogs that are that bit better.

That should have said:
I don't look on my learning experience as a negative, in fact it is good for one to realise it is no easy thing to breed dogs that are that bit better.