try:
rottclub@allrott.com
they will answer any questions about the club that you mail them , also , to find out how to join
info@allrott.com
there may be other clubs nearer...im not sure as not my breed.Others may be able to help more
hth
:D
Zoe x

Debbie

I don't get it... So you're fed up with people having a pop at you and yet when they leave you alone and forget about you for a day, you re-drag the subject up yourself :rolleyes:

One question - WHY ????????? Were you not getting any attention ;)

Beth

No beth the reason i posted is candys post was about her not about kc, so i did this post to find out the true facts, these i did not no, and now i do thanks to the people that have posted. If you look back i think i have only posted 5 times ever, so to me that is not wanting attention, just the help and advice i have been given. I thought dogs had to be over 2 to be kc registered i was wrong it turns out they can be 12 months and over. so you see me are still learning.

And the subject was not re dragged up, it was still going on in the health section that is why i have moved it here.

Hi Debbie,

I was going to suggest you join the Rottie club as the info I was tryign to find you is not available. In Scotalnd we join the Scottis Kennel club and then receive a show catalogue for the whole year of open and champ shows. Hopefully someone form the South could advice what club you need to join to get all this info.

Pam

seem in all ur posts debbie cleo that u attempt to start an arguement. It is so obvious that u should have researched when it is appropriate to breed from ur rotts, before you did it. Being new to the dog owning world I am researching everything I can about my breed - Westies, and joining the suitable clubs. I see nothing wrong with not being KC, but you do sound IMHO, unethical in ur breeding of ur rotts. R U too just trying to make money??? Most newcomers have the decentcy to research their chosen breed, as they are all different as u know. Dont blame ur short falls on KC.

Can I ask as I am slightly bewilldered is this Debbie the person whose rotties savaged her border collie?
:rolleyes:

Mattie,
The one and only..........only the thread has moved now. :-(
Gabrielle

Is there any news on the poor dog then? im not plowing through 299 posts to find out incidently is this a record????? :( :( :(

Mattie, candy is fine, she will be going to live with sharron when all the arangements have been made..

Debbie,
First, let me tell you I'm not a breeder. I am not taking the michael either. I'm just trying to figure out where you are coming from. AND I AM NOT TAKING SIDES!

I don't know if you've answered this somewhere else and I haven't read it.....but here goes. Why have you chosen to breed non kc reg. dogs? Is it so the kc isn't involved? Is it because you don't think it's necessary? Too "Big Brother" like? Why are you breeding them? Is it because it's a hobby? If it's not about the money then once everything is said and done you could tally up your expences and divide that number by the number of pups you've got and charge accordingly. If it IS about the money, you wouldn't be the first, just one of the honest ones. THAT WAS NOT MEANT TO BE A POP AT THE BREEDERS ON THIS BOARD! :)

Hi Quinn, i breed because i enjoy it, i certainly do not make money out of it, i spend more than what i get back. and am too soft with the pups and spend a fortune on them. I also take a long time off work unpaid to look after them for the 8 weeks they are here and longer.

I did not choose to breed non kc dogs it was more or less chosen for me, i was under the inpresion that cleo was kc. but now that i know she isnt it makes no difference to me. or the people that want one of my pups.

It is only a hobby, and something i may do from time to time, not on every season cleo will be missing her next few seasons. i hope that makes sense, as me not well at the mo and are woffeling on.

Yes this is i the one with the collie and the rotts. i moved the thread as candys post was beginin to sound like a battle ground.

Hi Lynsey, yes i should have joined a rotty club first befor breeding, then i probably would have waited to breed cleo.
And i wish i had found this sight befor i had any dogs.
I do not breed for money lynsey, i breed because i do enjoy it, money is not the issue.

I dont want an arguement that is not why i post, yes i am stuborn, so do annoy a few people.

I did do research on the breed and am still learning. I dont blame anything on kc why should i.

I should have missed cleos last season, and this season should have been her 1st litter, if i had joined this site befor hand that is what i would have done.

debbie

All i can say is different breeders have different rules - the breeder of Ebony said to start on 2nd season, breeder of the stud dog we used said over 2 years old - Ebony is 2 and a half. I don't think Ebony was ready before now, and this was her 3rd season - she has big gaps inbetween seasons.

Nikki xxx

I just hope Candy is going to be OK? All I am saying on this subject.

oh my god..is Debbie a bit of a wind up or what..lol

sorry deb you sound a lovely person who loves her pets ( part from the one you want to give away to a REAL DOG lover) but...
come on its "CHRISTMAS" go and post on somewhere else..where someone doesnt give a damn about ethical breeding.

I may have miss read the web site addy... but I did think "champ dogs " meant that not "I have a lovely dog/bitch that would "im sure" make lovely pups....but "champ dogs" in my mind means someone who gives a s*(no Im not going to swear)

P.s I love this site..dont let the ***** spoil it.Ive met some wonderful people on here..keep up the good work xxxxxxxx

What happens, as in the case of this season, Bud gets Cleo at her next season? Will you take her to get the pups aborted? Because that would mean 3 litters and only 2 years old? Money -v- health of your bitch?

Sorry to interrupt; KC or not KC, when it comes to breeding it should be CS that rules. CS as in COMMON SENSE. The last thing the world needs is another *hobby breeder* with no clue whatsoever about HD scoring, breeding age and so on. I do not breed for the simple reason that *my breeds* are in disrepute und I chose to go the rescue path. Debbie, you say you are not in it for the money but for the fun. May I ask how much you are charging for a pup? Also, I would be VERY interested to find out how you have ascertained the mental state of the dogs you chose for breeding. After all, the Rottweiler got quite a bad press and breeders should be very careful to exclude *bad apples* from reproducing. Would you be prepared to take a pup bred by you back if something goes wrong? What do you know about resocialising dogs? Or even socialising so there wont be another BC in need for a GOOD home?

Taylor

debbie has already told us that she can get as much as a registered one all bar £50!!!

Debbie,
I have owned Rotti in the past, Cleo my bitch was from an excellent breeder, that you may have heard of "GameGuard", a few years after buying cleo, rotti began to get a great deal of bad press, I would walk my dog and people would cross over the road rarther than pass her, and you would hear comments like thats one of those "Devil Dogs".

FINALLY the breed has come along way since those days, due to the amount of hard work and dedication (sp) of the breed club and ethical breeders and then people like you are doing such irresponsible things that could wipe out years of hard work.

It angers me to read your confusing posts, my collie has beeen savaged by my two rotti and then to find out one of those rotti is due a litter, never starts a fight but finishes them, but she does have a lovely temp!!!! and to be asking these kind of questions so late in the day, when they should have been long before the first mating is unbelievable.

This board is for dog lovers not money makers. You have not answered Dizzy many question about what kind of breeder you class yourself, so I will help you!!!

UNETHICAL MONEY OREINTATED DISGRACE!!!
or of course you could have nothing to do with dogs and are just a little bored!!!

I am sorry if others find my comments harsh, but I feel very strongly about rotti and the way in which they were betrayed in the early 90's, Cleo was my closet companion and I still think of her fondly and it angers me that there are such irresponsible people out there.
ILOVEDOGS

i remember the gameguard dogs-joan blackmore wasnt it??? nice sized dogs, and i agree with you and understand your feelings, however i think you'll find youre wasting your time :(

I think we're all wasting our time:( Many of us would be better talking to a brick wall rather than trying to educate Debbie:rolleyes: What's the saying?- Can't see the fog for the mist or something like that:( She doesn't even her own answers to give- when she does say something remotely educated- it's usually with a *that's what I think too* under someone else's post who has been silly enough to encourage her:(

Stacey x x x

Hi Dizzy,
Yes her name was Joan Blackmore, she provided the dogs for the film the Omen, and I enjoyed two rotties from her, Duke and Cleo.
When I used to live in London, a lady in the street backing on to ours, started a petition to get rid of the devil dog (cleo at the time), I received a number of letters regarding the neighbourhoods views on my iresponsiblity, although Cleo was never involved in any trouble, always was on a lead and was taken out in the evening when no young children were around (only as I perfered late evening walks, not because she was dangerous), never once did she get in to anyone elses garden. They had no reason to start a campaign against her, I invited them around to discuss the breed and to spend sometime with Cleo, they refused. A few months of these letters went by, and I was in my front garden doing some weeding, when a police man approached me and asked if I knew anyone in the street with a rotti, I informed him that I did, and he informed me that my dog had been involved in an attack on two girls in the park near to our house. I asked him when this took place and was informed within the hour, I took him into the house and introduced him to cleo who was still lying in her favourite spot at the bottom of the stairs, I showed him that no doors in the house were open and asked him to explain how she managed to get pass me in the front garden, go over to the park, attack two young girls and then walk straight pass me back into the house!!! He had no answer. But they still took me to court, the case was thrown out of court as the girls changed their stories a few times, it turnt out that the girls were related to the neighbour who started the petition. The courts did not purnish them for their blantant waste of time and money, but went onto leture me about keeping such a dangerous dog and that he could understand why she had resorted to such level to protect her children. I was beside myself, I sold up and moved out into the country and enjoyed the rest of my time with Cleo, I now have four Newfoundlands and one GSD (rescured), but I still have the toys Cleo played with and they are not allowed to touch them. She was loyal, loving, funny and better than most humans I know, so that is why I am so upset about Debbie and her complete lack of ethics, I just hope her dogs are not going to any homes with children, as I wouldn't want to read a headline about a young child being attacked, and as for her other dog, he is better of away from her!!!!
Best Wishes
ILOVEDOGS

I think your comments are disgraceful. You know nothing of Debbie yet you are willing to stand by some on this board who I consider to be far more unethical breeders than Debbie. As far as I'm concerned some of the top breeders in the country are nothing more than glorified puppy farmers.
I'm only giving one more warning on this matter. If people are going to persist in persecuting Debbie I'll let my feelings known on the 'ethics' of some of the people on this board.
Bec

It's a long way down from that horse Bec!!!!

Not quite as far as yours John.
Bec

Bec,
I know enough about Debbie to know she should not own let alone breed from rotties. As for your opion on other breeders I couldn't care less, it is Debbie I am talking about nobody else. I am sure Debbie Collie finds having, 40 stitches disgracefull!!!

And out of interest, what part did you find disgraceful, the part about how much bad press the rotti got, the fact I had to move away from our home so stupid people would leave my dog alone or was it the fact that I do not agree with Debbie ethics!!

ILOVEDOGS

Hi Bec, the thing is we do know a lot of things about her. She was planning the first litter when her bitch was 5mths old without doing the necessary health checks & she has gone on to allow her to have another litter & she is still only 2yrs old. The next thing we know is that her 2 dogs have savaged her other dog to the extent of the collie needing 40 stitches & she had been attacked before by the same 2 dogs. Debbie has told us this herself & with regards to the breeding issue she tells us she has done nothing wrong & will be mating her bitch for the third time in the future. Maybe you know more than we do about Debbie?
I don`t know who you are warning but this is a public forum & you have every right to make your feelings known, as we all do, but Debbie is not being persecuted, she is being given other peoples opinion on the way she has treated her dogs.
Christine, Spain

Well Said :)

My disgust is at what you called her (which is actually against ToS which people seemed so keen to adhere to when Phil was on here). Do you really think that calling Debbie names will make her a better breeder? Advice and guidance is what is required not an out and out attack. Of course she is going to defend herself when attacked as we all do but condemnation will not work.
Bec

I am disgusted in some of the names that i have been called,

ofcourse i am going to defend myself, who wouldnt.

Bec, i know you know how i feel and thankyou very much.

If people out there want to attack me, then please do it by emailing, the post is about age and breeding not about how many names can we call debbie today.

WHEN I AM WRONG I SAY I AM WRONG, I HAVE ALREADY SAID I SHOULD HAVE WAITED TO BREED CLEO, UNTIL I KNEW MORE ABOUT BREEDING.

DEBBIE

Ok does anyone believe that breeding dogs deliberately that require surgical intervention whilst still in the nest as being ethical?
Bec

is that sharpei youd be poking at again bec, or am i misjudging you again

If the cap fits Linda.
Bec

My terriers have fought severely resulting in stiches in one or both 'combatants'. I kept my lot together until they fought again, I didn't really want to be in the position to have to separate them but I have now had to reach that stage. Does that mean I'm as unethical as you believe Debbie to be because my dogs have had a fight?
Bec

[deleted]

No I don't breed from aggressive dogs but then neither does Debbie? Her dogs have had a fight like mine have or are you suggesting that if a terrier fights its not aggressive but if a rotti fights it is? Parsons have PLL but I haven't tested as the incidence is low and none of the oldies in my lines have suffered eye problems in the past but I don't breed any more (fed up with the fighting). On the other hand my new breed, Poodles, require eye testing, knees and hips. The incidence is higher than that in Parsons so stock will be tested. However many, many people in the show world DON'T test. Not ideal but that's life. When I was looking for a GSD pup recently not one of the people I rang had had the father tested for haemophilia (?) nor the parents hip scored and I rang loads of people. Are you seriously suggesting that someone who has only had one litter is not a beginner? No but then only one of my bitches has had 2 litters (second was an accident which you probably consider me to be irresponsible for allowing it to happen) No not all my dogs are KC reg and my future breeding plans include producing non-KC eligible pups which I have no problem with. In fact people who believe that only KC registered dogs should be bred are being very snobbish and elitest. No but neither has Debbie but hey what can she do right you complain when she suggested PTS, you complain when she suggested rehoming so she can't win either way, of course maybe rehoming a pregnant bitch would be easier is that what you want.

All in all based on this you consider me to be unethical yet I have not deliberatly bred dogs that require medical assistance to perform a natural function i.e seeing which is far more unethical in my book but you clearly have no problem with this.
Bec

[deleted]

How dare you make such an assumption. I have only ever had 3 litters and one of them was an accident. I have absolutely nothing to hide and when I commence my breeding programme it will be up on the internet on my website for all to see.

I don't believe in breeding under the age of 2 and that's for both sexes. I believe that 2 litters a bitch is more than enough but I probably won't have more than one. All my dogs and any puppies I breed will be microchipped and therefore easily traceable back to me.

You are assuming that the puppies that won't be eligible for KC registration are actually pure bred. They won't be.

Are you seriously suggesting that the KC registration system is fool proof? You are a fool to believe that is the case. The one and only way to ensure that registrations are accurate is DNA testing and hands up everyone who does that routinely. Bet they can be counted on one hand.

Every puppy I have bred whether by accident or design I give the same guarantees to. In fact I make the purchasers sign a contract and that I will take back anyone of my dogs that I breed should the original owner be no longer to have the dog for whatever reason and this I have done so on 3 occasions. I was very upset when I contacted one of my puppy buyers to find out they had passed the dog on to an unknown person.

I used to work in a rescue centre so I know all about the ins and outs of incorrect breeding. Funny how 90% of the dogs were cross bred or mongrels!

I see that no-one has commented on whether they believe that deliberatly producing puppies that require veterinary intervention to achieve a natural function is ethical so I have to assume that most do believe it is ethical. In that case I'd rather be classed with Debbie than people such as that.

Bec

[deleted]

Are you saying then that only KC recognised breeds should be bred? Because if that's the 'only' way to keep restrictions on bitches (which we all know doesn't work) then every other breed not recognised by the KC will become non-existant. Is that what you are suggesting?

You seem to feel fit to call me a liar. You know nothing about me yet have passed judgement. You accept the views of people on this board despite the fact that some of them produce malformed dogs (KC reg of course) that require operations and assistance in perform natural functions. Yet again no response from yourself on this matter. I can therefore only assume that you have no problem whatsoever with people deliberately producing such breeds as long as they are KC reg.

Funny how someone can be so commited to a club that they cannot become a member of unless they are recommended by one of the members. Or are you a member of the KC? Youthink the pedigrees produce are accurate. Even today. As you say all a pedigree is is the owr dwritten down by someone you HOPE is honest. Unless DNA testing is used NO pedigree or registration can be accepted as ACCURATE.

With regards to not responding to your posts well once you stop your false accusations and lies about myself then I will, until such time I will respond.
Bec

to Ilovedogs:
Your comments re: why some litters would be KC reg & others not, is rather futile & to my mind, just shows your narrow mindedness on this subject.....the dog world does not just revolve around pure breds. I for example, sometimes have both KC reg & non KC reg litters....but I have nothing to hide. its a question of whether I was breeding pure bred hounds (which would be KC registered) or longdogs (which would not.) I have both,

I respect your oppion Sam!!
ILOVEDOGS

;)

I LOVE DOGS, how dare you say such nasty things. i have not got rid of candy because i wanted to keep the others to make money from. do you know how hard it has been for me and my family to decide to take sharron up on her offer.

I am new to breeding but i am no fool, and when and if i do need help in the future i know that there are many people on this board that are willing to help me, bec and phillipa being 2 of them.

cleo and bud are not aggressive, but they will defend and protect themselves. like you would if you were attacked.

If i was a bad person like you suggest than i would not have asked for help, and i would not be rehoming candy to a very nice person. I am not saying i am not a nice person, but candy needs more.

debbie,

Bec, you are talking out of the top of your head. This has nothing to do with Philippa and you well know it. You are just out to cause as much trouble as possible. Get a life! All you are doing is to use Debbie's post to your own ends.

John

No John I mention Phillipa because people harped on about adhering to the ToS but have choosed to ignore it when they want to have a go at someone. My other point here is that people claiming Debbie is unethical are themselves unethical and is that right surely the balance needs to be addressed?
Bec

Funny how this post was about the age to breed, then again it all comes down to the one person. Would it be different if they were reg, since this mating an accident? I think so. She has said that she was rehoming Candy, better to rehome the trouble maker than the ones that are not. My studd (boston) got into a fight with my Rott/wolf and it was the boston that started it, so should I destroy my hybrid because they are not legal there, or my BT? Don't think so. They have got into fights because my bitch was in heat. They get along great now and play all the time. Just because a dog gets into a fight (bound to happen especially if u have intack ones) it is marked as bad temp. and should not be bred from? I know of 2 bitches that were spayed and male intack and they faught over the male and dominance. 1 female was rehomed and the other 2 are doing great. I would just like to see more help on the board then all this slamming. Does it really matter how much the pups go for? Would be curious how much u sell ur pups for, pet prices and breeding rights? As far as I'm concerned once u pay that kind of money it should be ur dog, to pay extra if u want to breed is ridiculus. If u do not want ur dog bred then after someone paid that kind of money then they should already have their spay/n paid for as well. Funny how the more ribbons a dog has under the more the pups/sperm are worth. I have been quoted from one breeder $1500 for pet and $2500 for breeding rights, and for a show quality pup the same, now come on, u can not tell a pup is even show quality until about 6 months of age. To me it all comes down to shows/ribbons ect. on how much ur pups r worth. I could just tally up 5 pups at that price and say that does come down to the money. I was sold a pup told show quality and well when I got him one testicle, nose not all black, retained alot of teeth, and had benine tumors on him. If I was offered some money back I would of kept him since he needed surgery on his teeth ect, and definately no good for breeding only having one testy among others, so he would of been a pet. I'm no vet and I knew at 8 weeks this pup never dropped, sent him back at 81/2 months cause the breeder kept saying it would drop (now that was hard on me as well as my family), his testy never did drop either.
ttfn :)

lets not start to fall out friends. :rolleyes: a few have tried to say OK not the right thing but lets assist Debbie we all make mistakes. If we can't help we should stay out of it? ;) Julieann

my sharpei have had no [COMBATS ] here thanks, but then i dont keep more than i can cope with=perhaps its easier getting a tack whilst in the nest-than getting stitched up later in life through ignorance-funny that, both you and debbie have unregistered dogs [mongrels] both needing stitches, [now i know what you both have in common, apart from ignorance that is