hi does anyone know, if a non standard colour puppy is worth any less than standard coloured pups? someone told me that they should be less to buy than the others? i thought most breeders charged the same wether it was bitch, dog, whatever?  sorry if this seems funny lol

please help xx

If I have a pup that definitely cannot be shown as it is a colour not allowed by the breed standard, or it's mismarked, or has any other obvious fault, then I would charge less for that.

hi thank you for your reply x how much less? xx

Id charge the same so long as the puppy was healthy, as all puppies cost the same to raise but the only difference being that the breeding restrictions wouldn't be lifted. Or if there was money off it wouldn't be alot as it would be going to a pet home and 80% of any litter usually go to pet homes anyway so color in that instance shouldnt make any difference.

If it's an unacceptable colour and could have potential health problems then I would think that it should be the price of not a pedigree dog would be about right so perhaps about 25% of the other, assuming that the sire and dam have all the health tests relevant for the breed.

Breeders in my breed don't register non standard colours, so yes, the price would be much lower.

Or if there was money off it wouldn't be alot as it would be going to a pet home and 80% of any litter usually go to pet homes anyway so color in that instance shouldnt make any difference.

Personally I think it should matter -because what happens if the pet buyer decides one day they'd like to show? They'd have a dog they'd paid the same for as the littermates, but cannot show. I bought my Champion with no intentions whatsoever of showing her, and here we are now LOL. What I mean is, anyone can change their mind. It's fair enough if somebody who changes their mind and wants to have a go at showing later on discovers their dog isn't as good as others -it wasn't bought for showing, after all-, but it's different if it could never be shown at all due to being the wrong colour or seriously mismarked or anything similar.

so far pup seems healthy just seems sad if he is worth less? i don't know what to do? 2 people have said should be much less? but i think not as above poster said it still costs the same ? dam and sire all had relevant testing including heart ? sorry if i seem thick lol i just didn't think it would make a diff in price? x

He's not an acceptable colour for the breed.  He will certainly need extra health checks and not just with local Vet before he goes anywhere.
Who is sad that he is worth less?

a few people and a lady that, i spoke to earlier said the non standard colour ones are not good for breeding this i know but i didn't think this made them worth less? xx

Who is sad that he is worth less?

Yes you cannot show the puppy but the breeder in all respects should be crystal clear about this so shouldn't be a problem if you had any inclination you wanted to show don't buy that puppy as that puppy would go to a loving home non the less. Our show dogs and pet home dogs cost the same as at 8 weeks you cannot determine if the promising puppy is still promising in a years time.

I suppose it does depend on how much the breeder is charging for their pups, we don't charge silly prices for our pups, so long as the puppy is healthy and isn't harboring a genetic problem then it should cost the same. Some breeders who get miss marked puppies add a couple a 0 to the end of the price calling them 'rare' again I think this is wrong.

who is sad? did you type that wrong lol sorry lol

someone who wanted to get one said they should be less money than the rest. last litter a while bk no one said anything until now? so i'm just unsure that's all. i will keep him if no one wants him xx

You said
"just seems sad if he is worth less?"

Did you not have the last white one you produced BAER and eye tested?

well not as such no, i didn't know i had too? i do see the pup as its gone to a friend of a friend and she's fine and healthy :) please don't start an argument of what i should of done because i honestly didn't know about it. i did everything i thought i had to? i went to see a special heart vet etc so i honestly didn't know . i am sad yes he's just as lovely as the others

It has cost the breeder exactly the same amount of money to raise a mismarked/non standard colour pup as it would to raise a pup which conforms exactly to breed standard - so there should not really be a great deal in it.   

Obviously as a breeder one tries to place pups to people - ie I would place a pup with excellent conformity with a family that hoped to show - after having kept what I would think is my "pick of the litter" for myself.   Other than that, one cannot with certainty say that this pup will make a good show dog/working dog - puppies do not always develop as one hopes.

So I wouldn't be selling a mismark or non standard colour for a lot less than I would for any other puppy - a nominal amount yes - but not at a "sub-standard" price.

One thing has occurred to me though - in Australian shepherds, for example, sometimes a mismark can be a throw-back to a merle/merle breeding and occasionally in these cases where there is a lot of white - also known as "fatal whites" - there can be deafness.   This is obviously a physical fault, and I would not sell such a puppy.   I might give it into the care of someone whom I could trust to nurture it - but I certainly would not charge a fee for such a puppy.

This puppy may have a hearing problem due to its colour however the only way to know for sure would be to BAER test. Then a home could be saught knowing the full facts and that is suitable for the pup concerned.

hi where would i get the baer test? vets? or else where? thank you so much for your help x

I am guessing what colour you mean
They may be deaf and should not be bred from because of the higher risk of passing on bilateral deafness.

They are usually sold for around 2/3rd the price of a coloured pup.

I would be very dubious however if potential buyers are more interested in 'can they breed from it' than anything else.

Lots of puppies grow up to be unsuitable for showing.  The difference is that it was not apparent, at 8 wks old, that they wouldn't be suitable - it was necessary to wait and see how the dog matured.

Here, you clearly know the puppy to be unsuitable for showing.

However, just as we don't refund people whose puppies grow up to be unsuitable for showing, so it seems unfair on the breeder, to charge less for this puppy, now.

>hi does anyone know, if a non standard colour puppy is worth any less than standard coloured pups?

kellytilly - are you asking as a seller or as a buyer?

I'm not sure it's about worth as such but there are questions to be asked and answered before deciding to buy a non standard colour.  Equally you have obligations (short term and long term) to a buyer if you are selling such a puppy so do take advice according to your breed.  Your breed club and the KC will both provide some useful information.

> kellytilly - are you asking as a seller or as a buyer?
>
>

'i will keep him if no one wants him xx '

would appear its as seller

>hi where would i get the baer test? vets? or else where?

There are very few centres that do BAER testing:

Small Animal Centre, Animal Health Trust, Lanwades Park, Newmarket, Suffolk, CB8 7UU
Contact: Mrs. Julia Freeman. Telephone: 01638 552700

Nina Snowden
Hearing Clinic
Scarsdale Veterinary Hospital
6 Witham Close, Hilton, Derbyshire DE65 5JR
Tel: 01283 732999

Animal Medical Centre, 511 Willbraham Road, Chorlton-cum-Hardy, Manchester M21 0UB]
Contact: Mr. Pip Boydell. Telephone: 0161 881 3329

Cranmore Veterinary Centre,
140 Chester Road, Childer Thornton, S. Wirral, Ch66 1QN, Tel:0151-339-5454

Small Animals Clinic, Royal Dick Veterinary College, Department of Veterinary Clinical Studies, Easterbush Veterinary Centre, Easterbush, Roslin, Midlothian EH25 9RG
Contact: Prof. I. G. Mayhew. Telephone: 0131 650 1000

Church Farm Veterinary Clinic, Neaston Road, Willaston, South Wirral, Liverpool CH64 2TL
Contact: Mr. G. Skerritt. Telephone: 0151 327 1885

Wey Referrals, 125-129 Chertsey Road, Woking, Surrey GU21 5BP
Contact: Ms. Sue Fitzmaurice. Telephone: 01483 729194

THE HEARING ASSESSMENT CLINIC:
Kate McMorris
The Hearing Assessment Clinic, Sandown Veterinary Group, Frost Lane, Hythe, Southampton, Hants SO4 6NG Phone 02380 842237

And apparently Rosemount Vets West Byfleet.

yes i'm a seller, just gotta be careful for some reason, as i'm not advertising they all have homes, its just the white one i'm unsure wether he should be sold cheaper? i will get his ears tested but the 2 people who want him, are not going to show him nor breed but they obviously think white one's should be less money? they had a pup from our last litter and ideally they would be the perfect candidate for him. thing is as much as i love them and have kept one for ourselves, i don't think in my mind, he should be worth any less. dogs of friends, some haven't turned out so healthy and come from great bloodlines etc so i guess you cant always tell the out come of there health. but as a breeder or whatever i am, i'm in no way mean :( not at all, and i did everything correctly as far as i'm concerned :) i didn't go into breeding from my bitch lightly, i read up, got the checks, what actually the stud dog woman said to get done, who has been a breeder, stud dog owner, and enters lots of shows with her dogs. i had to travel, pay you know everything which you guys would understand if you have done it. i just want him to go to the right home and get the right payment for him, if i was doing it for pure love they would be free, but its not free to do by any means costs a lot and as a family we were relying on the money to help us out at this tough time ressesion :( things are tough right now so just need every penny we can get!! btw my pups are selling for the going rate nothing too much nothing to little just what i would pay or i did pay for my bitch and that was 4 yrs ago lol

rosemount vets no. Is 01932 341058 they do a wide range of tests very helpful if you ring them I only live down the road from them

Nessa

thank you xxxxx

thank you so much x

Quote kellytilly: "as a family we were relying on the money to help us out at this tough time ressesion  things are tough right now so just need every penny we can get!!"

It makes me so sad to read a comment like this :( This shouldn't be the reason to breed a litter of puppies :( So much can go wrong when you breed, it could have cost you huge amounts of money if things had gone wrong, then where would you have been?

ETA: in my breed, it is usual to charge a smaller fee for a puppy that has a ridge fault, or no ridge at all, or is a non-standard colour. Different breeds seem to do things differently.

I would never sell a pup for any less than any other pup - to do so suggests that life is worth less.
By putting different prices on different things you open yourself up to problems - if you charge more for a show quality yet a litter mate sold as non show quality for less ends up doing better in the ring etc etc.
We bought a non standard colour pup not accepted in this country but acceptable in the states,we paid the same price as all the rest and wouldnt have it any other way.His life was no less valued than any other,my breeders pups were all worth as much to her as each other regardless of what they may achieve in life,none were going in the 'bargain box'
No offence to anyone

I never sell puppies as "show quality" - some are correctly marked and may show potential, however.

And I am a bit offended by your remarks!

I never sell puppies as "show quality" - some are correctly marked and may show potential, however.

Ditto.

In cats (most breeds but not all), there are 3 levels of pricing. Pet quality, breeding quality and show quality. A show quality kitten will cost at least 3 times as much as a pet one, and a breeding quality one (that is one that has no faults that makes it unsuitable for breeding, but will have some fault making it unsuitable for showing) will cost roughly double that of a pet.

I don't understand how anyone can charge full price for a puppy that has a major fault such as the wrong colour.

White puppies of this breed cannot be shown and should not be bred from due to their high likelyhood of being and/or passing on deafness.

They are almost always sold at a reduced price without registration papers.

we were relying on the money to help us out at this tough time ressesion :-( things are tough right now so just need every penny we can get!! btw my pups are selling for the going rate nothing too much nothing to little just what i would pay or i did pay for my bitch and that was 4 yrs ago lol

What's this lol all the time when you're talkiing about producing puppies?  I can't see anything to laugh out loud about. :(

Have you read this?
http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/breedercomparison.htm

last litter a while bk no one said anything until now?
And did you use the same stud dog?

Sorry, don't know how to quote BUT several things worry me about this post, the lack of understanding of ALL the health testing involved, it would appear the puppies have been produced purely for financial gain, this is not the first litter so why were you not aware of your responsibilities?
Producing puppies is a labour of love, if done correctly it is costly in money and emotions and you have to be there to give knowledgeable support for your owners for the rest of the life of that pup.

If they were mismarked then maybe not a price reduction BUT the possible health implications for me would make me look to my conscience and not charge a full price for this pup but money is not my major consideration. Sorry if this seems harsh but that's the way I see it. The fact that a pup is less in price does not mean that he will be any less loved and surely that is what is important.

As I understand this post - you have produced a puppy that does not comply with the breed standard even as a very young puppy.  It is white and may well have hearing problems?  Not having a breed which can throw white, I do not know much about it, but does it always show deafness at birth or can it develop in later years?

Although I appreciate it may well go to a pet home, it does have a fault and therefore I don't believe you can charge the same price as other puppies.  Have you been able to register him with the KC?  If not, how can you consider selling him for the same as the KC registered ones?

I think the majority of breeders now charge the same for bitches and dog puppies - but this is a different matter entirely.

If i was paying the going rate for a puppy, I would expect it to be as near perfect as possible even if it was 'just a family pet'.

Finally - raising a litter of puppies can cost you more than you actually receive when selling them so breeding should not be seen as a way to boost the families income!  Sorry to appear harsh - but that's the reality of it.

> yes i'm a seller, just gotta be careful for some reason, as i'm not advertising they all have homes, its just the white one i'm unsure wether he should be sold cheaper? i will get his ears tested but the 2 people who want him, are not going to show him nor breed but they obviously think white one's should be less money? they had a pup from our last litter and ideally they would be the perfect candidate for him. thing is as much as i love them and have kept one for ourselves, i don't think in my mind, he should be worth any less. dogs of friends, some haven't turned out so healthy and come from great bloodlines etc so i guess you cant always tell the out come of there health. but as a breeder or whatever i am, i'm in no way mean :-( not at all, and i did everything correctly as far as i'm concerned :-) i didn't go into breeding from my bitch lightly, i read up, got the checks, what actually the stud dog woman said to get done, who has been a breeder, stud dog owner, and enters lots of shows with her dogs. i had to travel, pay you know everything which you guys would understand if you have done it. i just want him to go to the right home and get the right payment for him, if i was doing it for pure love they would be free, but its not free to do by any means costs a lot and as a family we were relying on the money to help us out at this tough time ressesion :-( things are tough right now so just need every penny we can get!! btw my pups are selling for the going rate nothing too much nothing to little just what i would pay or i did pay for my bitch and that was 4 yrs ago lol<

And that is the reason why so many excellent breeders who want to keep a pup themselves have put off having litters at the moment - I have heard of breeders with large litters of 8-10 who still have to sell just one puppy!

Unless I have saved enough to pay all the necessary costs with having a litter - from the cost of travelling from one side of the country to another for a stud twice, costs of possible veterinary fees (including the possibility of an emergency C-section), time off work to look after a litter, feeding and keeping the litter warm and healthy, then I have always waited until I have had it.    I would never, ever, have a litter in anticipation of making a small profit - sadly there are too many pitfalls that you may have to overcome.  

It looks as if you're having to learn this lesson the hard way.   And I agree with the others - I would not use either the bitch or the stud again in any of my breeding programmes -you could come across white puppies (plural) in your next litter.   Have you told the stud dog owner?

I sell mine for less.  The mismarks in my breed don't have any health issues to them just that they were colours/markings that the Spanish decided many years ago that they didn't want in the gene pool.

Funny because my first one is the one where I get the most response from, where people who were just walking down the road and started talking to the owner phone me up just to say what a wonderful boy he is.

This makes me so angry....... Why did you not fully research before you decided to breed? You said you previous litter had no problems Im guessing that was just luck !!

I would very much like to breed even if I only have 1 litter and have already started researching which is something as I have a 16 week old male so will be a very long time before I even get a bitch and even then there is no gurentees. Im not interested solely on wether pups are show worthy my main concern is for the pups them selfs and would never ever breed if there was any doubt about health issues which clearly you have over looked and this makes you no better than a back yard breeder, doing for finacial gain is so wrong yes may be an added bonus but not the main reason to breed ! I do hope the puppy gets a good home and doesnt have any heath problems!

Yes I would sell at a cheaper rate as this puppy may cause the new owners lots of vetanary costs due to your fault !

If it is the hard cash that has to come into this equation, and it is the general concensus here that you cannot sell a white puppy with potential deafness without having it BAER tested first (which again will cost you money) - why do you not sell the puppy that you had intended to keep for yourself, and keep this wee one?   You will then know it will have a loving home, and that it would not be used in any breeding programme.

it worries me too kellytilly ,its cost me £1600 at the vets thats not including the cost of £50 pr week to feed mum and £30 aweek to feed the pups with the extra things they get with ther kibble which i got free to wean pups on so over so thats anougher £600plus in just food! then theres kc to pay and everything ive paid out , you can NEVER have a litter thinking im going to make money because money is tight!
xxxx

With my last litter I lost a lot of money -but I never bred it for financial gain in the first place! I used a good bitch (all health tests for breed done which can be checked at KC site) that previously, in her first litter, has thrown both show winners and professional workers, to a new import (all health tests done again, checkable), both done well at shows. This will have helped the breed as a whole, bringing in new blood, breeding for looks AND temperament AND health. I struggled a LOT to sell, had to keep two rather than one (one good, one less good), and yes definitely ended up losing money. But I don't expect to make money from a hobby.

But I don't expect to make money from a hobby.
The more I think about it, I reckon that what ethical breeders do is more of a passion and way of life than a hobby don't you? :)

Yes WestCoast you're right. A hobby like golf or stamp collecting or football or something you can stash away in a corner of your house and forget about for several days a week, breeding dogs is a 24/7 commitment, always.

But I don't expect to make money from a hobby.

Got it in one, Marianne!   I think the OP saw breeding as a money-making scheme - but sadly she's come up against what we all keep preaching here!

Good breeders do it for the love of the breed!

I am in total shock at this post..

I agree with the majority of what has been said already.

What worries me the most is that you bred the litter purely to try and make money..not to improve lines/keep a puppy to show etc.. What would you of done if your bitch needed a c-section?the puppies needed hand rearing?all the puppies died?infections? There are so many things to think about and all the above would set you back quite a bit...

When you breed I believe it should only be to improve the breed..all health tests neccessary should be carried out and only when these come back clear/correct the litter plans should go ahead.

As someone else has said (cant remember who!) have you informed the stud dog owner? I think I know the breed you are referring to and the puppy will need to be BAER tested. Also, I think someone said about how about you keep this puppy and sell the one you originally planned to keep?

(Sorry about spelling..Im not with it today! :D )

Not read this thread but think it is miss titled - this is not a matter of a "Non standard colour" this is a pup with a "potential health problem". At best the breeder should keep this pup but if it must be moved on then it should be tested first and if found to be deaf or suffering from any other problem then perhaps it should be re-homed, free, to a good and experienced home where the handler is able and has the time to teach the pup with hand signals.

Now the sad fact that most of the litter may be carrying this gene and have a potential to pass it on to their own off spring and should not really go to their new home until neutered which means that they need to stay with the breeder for a long while yet but we all know that will not happen.

If it is the breed I think it is (from the Working group, formerly traditionally docked) a certain proportion of whites which may have hearing problems are common/expected due to the genetics.

In the UK plain coloured dogs without 'Flash' markings seldom do well at shows, so often two flashy marked ones are mated together increasing the risk of white (potentially hearing impaired/deaf) puppies. 

Apart from also being BAER hearing tested, it is the norm for them to be about 3/4's of the price of their coloured relatives.

It is a cost and ethical dilemma breeders expect.  Dilemma in that many would consider the best thing if pup is bilaterally deaf is to have it PTS.  Deafness will negatively affect the dogs quality of life, make training harder, reduce the potential for off-lead excersise and increase the risks of accidents in distracting situations.

If this is the case Brainless perhaps the flash should become an un-desirable feature in the standard so given say 10 years dogs with flashes would not be bred from at all. This is a case where (given time for the breed to adjust) vet inspections at shows would solve this problem as dogs with flashes would not be allowed to win principal awards.

I can't see an answer in some of our breeds who also have a white coat linked to deafness but with the bred we are both thinking of and if you are correct the answer is there and the problem should be dealt with.

I don't think removing the attractive characteristic white markings in this breed would eliminate whites completely.

But if what you say is true, and I have not reason to doubt you if it eliminates the majority it would be a big step forward and the rest could be dealt with by careful breeding which would be more likely if dogs with white were not acceptable in the ring.