OK so we are all agreed the General Public need to be educated as to how to find a responsible ethical and caring breeder. So with out straying off topic lets have some suggestions please. I would like breeders, owners and people like Pat and Mandy D who campaign against puppy farmers to put in their ideas.
I know many believer micro-chipping to be the panacea which will eliminate puppy farmers and back yard breeders, many breeders do micro-chip and many chose to tattoo or do both so ignoring micro-chipping and/or tattooing, what would you all advise a first time puppy buyer to look for in a good breeder? Generally and for your own breeds in particular. How would you go about advertising where to go to find out the information?
Examples:
Would you buy a puppy from a kennel or not?
Would only buy from a person who breeds a litter in the home?
How could tell if either of the above were good or bad breeders?
How does a first time puppy buyer find out about health tests?
How do they find a suitable breed club?
Right you lot lets get going on this!

Happy to oblige but firstly please clarify what you mean by a kennel?
A commercial breeder who keeps all dogs outside.
A person that has a few/couple of dogs and keeps some/all in an outside kennel?

Are you asking me what I would do personally or what I would advise someone else to do?  There maybe a difference but only in as much that I may have a little more experience in certain areas and be aware of what to avoid than someone looking for a puppy for the the first time as this maybe too much to take in therefore may need to keep advice more basic but set them off on the right footing to enable them to to do their own research.

This looks a useful guide http://www.kateconnick.com/library/breeder.html (except the bit about spay/neuter contracts which are very American, and many good UK breeders are against pre-pubertal neutering).

when I Had my first litters I used to take the Mum and pups into the local primary schools and give a talk about responsible dog ownership.

The tack I took was that they should not pester Mum and Dad for a puppy as by the time they were leaving school, starting work, going to University the dog would be entirely Mum and Dads responsibility and it must be them who want a dog.

I used to explain what to look for in a breeder so as not to buy from a puppy farm, or go to the shelter for one (we have a large dog and cats home in Bristol).

I think an educational campaign should be aimed primarily at schools, a simpler format for Primary schools and something more in depth for the Secondary schools.  I would like to see the Kennel Club involved as sadly a lot of the welfare agencies have a very anti breeder stance, due to their work, again all breeders are seen as evil exploiters.
Sadly these visits stopped when a new head was brought in, as the old chestnut of health and safety was rolled out.

The info needs to get to people before they get a puppy.  More literature in Pet stores and vets is good, but by then it is often too late and some years down the lien when they want their next dog everything is forgotten.

I think that we'll always disagree on some things but the RSPCA (was my mouth out! :) ) link that you posted the other day is good.
http://www.getpuppysmart.com/

The Kennel Club has loads of info on their website. http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/ including Breed Information Centre, Find a Breed, Health Tests, Find a Puppy, Find a Rescue Dog, Find a Dog Club, Accredited Breeders.

Surely the Kennel Club and RSPCA would be the first 2 probable places that people might look? :)

And this website is excellent for a puppy buyer to spot the differences between a serious breeder and a byb!
http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/breedercomparison.htm

The information IS out there and those who look will find it.  And those who don't care won't. :(

Well, the KC site will give most this information and what they do not give the breed clubs will. As to the first two - would you buy from a kennel or from a litter bred inside - I am not sure what you mean. Lots of pups are born in the home and then moved to a kennel and what do you mean by a kennel, do you mean that the dogs are kept outside some of the time or do you mean that the dogs are never been bought in to the home. Or do you mean a large establishment where lots of dogs are housed in kennels and the bitches are kept for the purpose of breeding only.

A good indicator IMHO is where it is more difficult than you would have thought, to get the breeder to let you have the puppy!

I think a table with all the steps you need to take when looking and buy a puppy then at the top have a list of various places eg kc reg breeder, ABS kc reg breeder,DLR reg breeder, breeder not associated to any org , breeder breeding crosses , licensed kennels etc and then have a pro and con for choosing working through each step detailing the high level pro's and cons You should then see a common pattern of choosing the right type of breeder means that the pros will far outweigh the cons. It needs to be very clear and have a visual impact for JP to take any notice.

Lots of words and explanations will get lost with a lot of people so it needs to be simple English that will be understood by all types of JP.

The first thing I tell anybody who wants to buy a pedigree puppy (and I get such enquiries quite a lot second hand, as people at my husbands work see his car covered in show stickers and ask him, and he then asks me) is to get onto the KC website and look up what health tests the breed needs -alternatively I do it for them. At the same time get the info of breed clubs from the same website and contact either the national club or the one in their general area, phone or e-mail them and ask about breeders with puppies. Going via the breed club you are almost guaranteed to cut out the puppy farmers and back yard breeders.

If checking out a breeder, again the internet is your best tool these days. Google their name and kennel name and see what pops up. You should find show results and other results, showing an active involvement in the breed, you should not just find a lot of adverts. If there is an actual litter available, or planned, ask the registered names of the parents, and they can then check the KC website (once again) to see if any health tests are recorded -although in my second breed Papillon none are recorded officially, but certainly in my main breed Malinois they should find the results they need.

Everything else is more personal. I have personally had a lot of buyers come to me because my dogs are not all kenneled (I just have one that is, and that is because he does not get on with other males or cats) and my pups are not reared in kennels. Some buyers see this as essential. Personally kennels would not put me off but so much is about the feeling you get when vising somebody. Are all dogs in kennels and the house spotless with cream carpets? Not even an elderly dog indoors in front of the fire or on the sofa? That to me seems like somebody who isn't interested in their dogs as pets, but of course it doesn't at all have to mean their dogs are badly reared or bred or not great in every way. Again I have plenty of people say they came to me because they can see my dogs are pets first and foremost with the oldies living their lives out here, I do not rehome dogs. But at the same time I can understand those that DO and I have friends that do rehome the dogs that are retired so they get to live a life in luxury as a pet with more attention than they can give them. I can certainly see both viewpoints, so again it's personal what somebody prefers in a breeder.

I no longer subscribe to the theory that a good breeder should interrogate any buyer and ask lots of questions. That can seem so rude and unfriendly -it's far better to get the buyers talking with just a couple of questions and let them tell you about their life, their interest in dogs, their experience etc. But obviously anyone should avoid a breeder that just tells them the price of pups and doesn't want to know anythign at all.

A good breeder should be able to answer most questions a puppy buyer may have, during the dog's lifetime, be it about the breed, health, training, feeding, anything, and they should be happy to keep in touch and not mind questions even ten years down the line. (Even now I often ask the breeder of my 11 year old bitch questions!) They should be able to tell them about the parents of the puppies, also about the grandparents and ideally more than that. Not just show results but other facts that matters -such as how old they are or how long they lived, what temperament they had, etc.

I would stay WELL clear of any breeder that advertises and says "Deposit secures!!". That smacks of just wanting to sell. I would expect there to be a contract to be signed, and pups to be endorsed, and the breeder to explain in detail why. The breeder should supply written details on feeding, working, training etc, supply enough food to feed the pup for at least a week, and not just rely on everything being written down, but explain about feeding and worming and everything else essential when they meet the buyer.

I'd expect to get to meet the mother of the pups and ideally other relatives as well, but not usually the father -although it isn't always bad if a breeder owns the sire. Ask why they picked the dog they did. However for any buyer that wishes to meet the father, they should be able to arrange a visit to the stud dog owner.

A good indicator IMHO is where it is more difficult than you would have thought, to get the breeder to let you have the puppy!

A very good indicator but if that is mentioned in educating JP then it would have be worded is such a way to encourage people as you have to remember most people think they know what they are doing and to be questioned by somebody going into alot of detail can often put people off. How many times have we heard people ringing up with enquiries and have had phones slammed down because of this.

This is one of the problems as alot of people want the least hassle when buying a puppy and so put that down as a thing that a good breeder will do will be a definate deterant for alot of people. It is however a definate thing good breeders will do as they would want their puppies to go to the right home.

This is what we advise anyone looking for a Siberian Husky puppy:

There are hundreds of Siberian Husky breeders in the UK. Like most breeds the quality of dogs & breeders varies widely. A small proportion of breeders in the UK are reputable and responsible but most, unfortunately, are not. To the inexperienced it is often difficult to tell the difference.

Many breeders,  have websites. How can you tell from the website what kind of breeder they are? Check this article out: http://www.kaylenbergsiberians.com/BreedersOnline.htm

These are some of the indicators you can use to check breeders out:

 
1. Are the dogs being bred Kennel Club registered and are the pups KC registered. KC registration is not a 100% guarantee, but it is a strong indication that the pedigree of your dog is accurate and honest. If the mother, father or the pups are not KC registered, beat a hasty retreat at that point. Note: there are other dog registration organisations in the UK but their registrations are not worth the paper they are written on. If it ain't KC, don't buy it!

 
2. Do the breeders work and/or show their dogs? If not, why are they breeding? Most good breeders breed litters to improve their teams either for the showring, the trail or both. If they are doing neither you have to assume that their main motivation is cash! - not the best reason for breeding dogs

 
3. How easy do they make it to buy a puppy? If you don't get the (friendly) third degree about your knowledge of the breed, the security of your house and garden etc, it is unlikely that they are a responsible breeder. Will they let you see the mum and dad and all their other dogs? You can learn a lot from the condition and temperament of the adult dogs in a breeder's kennel. More often than not the breeder will have gone "outside" for a mating, so they won't actually own the stud dog, but they should be able to show you pictures, pedigree and health certification for the dad as well as the mum.

 
4. Have the appropriate health tests for the breed been carried out on the parents? Although as a breed, the Siberian Husky is very healthy, all responsible breeders will screen their dogs for hereditary defects. In particular they should be checked for hip and eye defects. Ask if the parents of the puppies are tested and ask to see the results. The breed average hip score is currently 7. Eye tests should include PRA, CD, PPM,  Gonioscopy and Hereditary Cataracts

 
5. How old is the mother and how many litters has she had? No bitch should be bred before the age of 2 years or after the age of 7. There should be at least a year between successive matings and no bitch should have more than three litters in her lifetime.

 
6. Was the litter planned or was it "accidental"?  If you are told that the litter can't be registered because the mating was "accidental" and the bitch was too young/too old etc etc etc, walk away. Post mating contraceptive injections have been available from vets for years and there is no excuse for "accidental" matings. It is surprising how many bad breeders have "accidental" mating after " accidental" mating.

 
7. Will the breeder expect you to sign a contract of sale in which you undertake to return the dog direct to the breeder if for any reason you cannot keep it, and in which you acknowledge that the dog has breeding/export restrictions on its KC papers and cannot be bred from without agreement from the breeder? All responsible breeders will insist upon this for the protection of the dog.

If you cannot tick ALL these boxes with a breeder, walk away and look elsewhere. In our opinion every single one of these conditions is crucially important in finding a good breeder.

So - that is what you look for when you find a breeder, but how do you find one?

One of the best ways is to visit large Championship Dog Shows and find the Siberian Husky benches. Here you will find a wide variety of Siberians, their owners and breeders. You will also be able to see loads of dogs and decide what 'type' of dog you would like. In the UK, Siberians range from the very slim sprint-racing dogs, through middle-of-the-road dogs who can succeed both in racing and showing, to the US style shorter-legged Show dogs. You also need to decide whether you want a dog you can show and/or race as well as being a pet. At most big shows all types are represented. If you buy a catalogue you will have access to the addresses of all the owners at the show.

Similarly in the winter you can visit some of the racing events which happen all over the country.

Visit http://www.snopeak.com to find details of racing events near you.

You will probably have to wait to get the puppy you want as most reputable breeders only breed occasionally - If you are properly prepared, the wait will be worth it. The only problem then is you will want another, and another and another.............They are frighteningly addictive!!!

You need to be extremely careful when choosing a breeder. The biggest safeguard you can have is doing your homework thoroughly before even approaching a breeder. The fact that a breeder may be a member of a breed club is no guarantee that the breeder is ethical, nor is membership of the Kennel Club accredited breeder scheme. Over the years, we have come across some appalling puppy farmers who have been members of breed clubs and the KC scheme.

Mick

Firstly, suggest they research all dog breeds they maybe interested in to ensure that they have made the right choice of puppy for their life style and circumstances. Internet and library would be a good source of information together with Dogs Today magazine that have a helpful section relating to all breeds, their needs what health screening is available for the breed of their choice and they list breed advisors. The reason why I say the latter it is easilly obtained and to understand.
Having chosen the breed and with knowledge of the required health screening then I would suggest they contact the breed secretary of their chosen breed, obtained via the KC web site, asking if they could put them in touch with breeders that health screen all thir dogs used for breeding. I would suggest they speak to a number of breeders, ask many questions such as the number of dogs they own how long they have bred, litters bred, view parents, photos if on web site, research as much as possible, be prepared to wait for a litter. To me personally it would be important that the dogs live in the house and puppies are reared in the house but for certain breeds I could understand why dogs are kept outside in kennels (some of the time) which I am sure many would find acceptable providing they ticked all the other boxes. View all paperwork check if correct including screening details, vacs, pedigree, KC reg cert. Check the puppy over watch it interacting with the others in the litter. Expect to be asked many questions by the breeder and be prepared for a home visit if asked. Try to view the puppies before they are ready to leave Mum if the breeder is comfortable with that.

Polly in answer to your questions my reply to number one would be no.
To number two yes providing they met the criteria above.
To number three, because having conducted my own research I would know what I was looking for and could listen to the answers to my questions, I would see the parents (maybe only dam the sire may have to be arranged if need be) would judge by the appearance of the dog/dogs and their behaviour towards their owner and to me a stranger, could see where and how the puppies are reared, plus anything else above, if they ticked all the boxes and cared about their dog/dogs then I would consider them a good breeder. I would need to see all relevent paperwork such as BVA KC screening info, pedigree, KC reg applied for, vac certs. This may possibly be an accredited breeder dependent upon what I felt at the time.  For me research would be very important I would check, check and double check before I even contacted a breeder which may mean that the breeder of my choice may not be an accredited breeder.  It is a very individual matter but then I would hopefully know what I was looking for in a breeder unfortunately, the public often do not want to bother it is easier to pick one off the shelf (puppy from pet shop/dealer).
In answer to four, I would advise them to contact the KC web site which highlights the KC BVA schemes available.
In answer to five, I would suggest they contacted the KC web site and ask by email or by telephone for contact details of the secretary of the breed club of their choice.
I have no doubt have missed important info, that someone will have the pleasure of pointing out but this is from thinking and typing as I go along off the top of my head so to speak.

 
         
 

So much of this education has been going on unsuccessfully for so long. When was the phase "Always see a puppy with its mother" introduced? The recent survey done by Bristol University gives the following figures.

"Statistics from a new survey commissioned by the RSPCA* reveal that nearly a quarter of the owners (24 per cent) who bought a pure-bred puppy in the past two years based their decision mainly on appearance, while a massive 56 per cent of buyers did not see the puppy with its mother before they bought it."

Education like this is not working. Maybe more TV programmes showing sick or unsocialised puppies and the implications either emotionally or more likely financially might make a difference. Otherwise we are working to change the law so that people will not have the easy choice of walking into a pet shop and walking out 10 mins later with a puppy. People will not be able to have a quick look on the net and have a puppy delivered to their door the next day.

Please have a look at the other thread about the new Puppy Love campaign and email your MP asking them to stop the sale of puppies through pet shops and dealers.

Hi Pat,

I did not want to define it all those questions were merely examples of the type of question we all discuss all the time, and to get the broadest cross section of replies including one from you I thought perhaps posters might reply by giving their opinion of the different types of kennel, what makes each one different etc..

As to what you would personally do, would there be a difference? When I get asked I advise people of everything they should look for and I give them a print out of things to aware of in my own breed, which they can take when they go to meet a breeder. I also back this up by encouraging them to come back to me if they have further questions. As I know you and MandyD are anti puppy farm campaigners I did wonder if you might suggest something breeders and owners here might not think of.

I try my best to steer people in the right direction if they are enquiring about my breed or not.  When I get an enquiry for my own breed I point out what reputable breeders are doing with regards to health testing and the min. they should be expecting from that breeder, where they can find out the results of those tests required.  I give the breed club (there is only one) details where there is a list of known reputable breeders who all health test their dogs and have decent examples of the breed.  I do my best to keep them away from the free advertising type sites, and encourage them to go to a show or visit a local breeder to them so that they can see the adult version of the dog not a cute puppy - at this point there (I would expect) is a lot of questions regarding the breed and their needs etc.  Some of my dogs are in kennels and some in the house, but all my girls come indoors to have their litters where they can be under constant observervation.  I don't think that buying from a kennel is a problem in itself depending on what your definition is.  I encourage people to have a think and then come back with any further questions they think of no matter how silly they may seem.  As for getting the 'education' message out there to a wider audience I would love to see a programme made to support this, a run in a newspaper anything that could 'hit' the general public at large.  I think maybe getting the messge out there that there may be a wait required to get a puppy, that people should expect to be asked lots of questions by a breeder isn't a bad thing and a start.  Just to add sorry for any typos I can't seem to find my glasses !!

> Education like this is not working. Maybe more TV programmes showing sick or unsocialised puppies and the implications either emotionally or more likely financially might make a difference. Otherwise we are working to change the law so that people will not have the easy choice of walking into a pet shop and walking out 10 mins later with a puppy. People will not be able to have a quick look on the net and have a puppy delivered to their door the next day.

A TV programme would be good but should it be a one off? We have plenty of TV programmes about animals and animal welfare mostly hosted by organisations with a vested interested, i.e. Crufts - the KC or Animal 24/7 - the RSPCA and so on, which can be at odds with each other. Agree with you that sometimes education has to put under the noses of the public before they take in even a small part of what is being said.

dont know if this will help at all but this is how i found my puppy (well still waiting for him to be born but u know what i mean)

# First i decided if i wanted a pure breed, cross, puppy form a breeder or a rescue. I decided i want a pedigree from a breeder as i wanted to know what to expect form the dog so i didnt end up with a dog that compleatly didnt suite my life style, i also want to show.
# Then i went to the KC website to find possible breeds. i could only have a small medium dog so i opened all the breed standards for breeds of those sizes and made a list of breeds i liked the look of.
# Then i went to the breed clubs (found the links on the KC site) and read more into about the breeds on my list , grooming requirment, exersize requiremnt, temperment, common breed health problems, bad points about the breed, breed history ect and started crossing ones off that didnt sound right for me. also went to descover dogs at crufts and asked a few Qs and in the end i was left with one breed.
# I then started my search for a breeder. I wanted someone who not only did the health tests for the breed but only used dogs with good results, treated there dogs as pets, was friendly and had nothing to hide, was knolgeble of the breed, had good dogs and was only breeding as they wanted a pup back for themselves. I ended up emailing 3 breeders (one was my local breeder and 2 thruther away) with some more questions i hadnt found the answer to and about them and there dogs. two of the breeders replyed and both answered all my questions and even gave me some extra info. I chose one of those breders (the one 5 hours away!) and we agreed to meet at a local dog show. They asked me some questions and we chatted for ages and walked the dogs, i was told that the female was due her tests and if they didnt come back good there would be no litter. they invited me to there home to see the rest of there dogs and sent me a questionair (a long one lol) all went well and after visiting them in there home i was happy i found everything i wanted and they were happy with me and i was put on there waiting list.
Ive met up with them a few time since and i plan to stay in contact long after i have my pup and im still researching my breed, i just brought a breed book that is fantasitc.

Im happy that ive found a good breeder and when my boy comes i will have a well bred pup who is well worth the waite and travil :)

> I think an educational campaign should be aimed primarily at schools, a simpler format for Primary schools and something more in depth for the Secondary schools.  I would like to see the Kennel Club involved as sadly a lot of the welfare agencies have a very anti breeder stance, due to their work, again all breeders are seen as evil exploiters.
> Sadly these visits stopped when a new head was brought in, as the old chestnut of health and safety was rolled out.
>
> The info needs to get to people before they get a puppy.  More literature in Pet stores and vets is good, but by then it is often too late and some years down the lien when they want their next dog everything is forgotten.

Do you ever give talks to WI groups or Rotary clubs?

I remember when I was young we had books for all pony mad girls to read, some made instruction of how to look after a horse or pony as a central theme to the story. Do you think this might work in schools with the story centered around responsible ownership?

Regarding literature in shops many people will not read anything they are given, so I wonder if short film like the RSPCA Get Puppy Smart cartoon could be played in pet shops like they are in some hardware stores or supermarkets?

As Martin Clunes is very much into dogs and animals and has done a few programs now perhaps a celebrity like him would be a good way to get the message to the wider audience. It needs to be done in a way that will capture JP attention. All the websites and literature is good but to get a message home it needs to be a specific type of media targeting the right audience.

Way back about 1994 Dogs Trust ((NCDL as it was known then)commissioned a piece to be shown in cinemas throughout the UK campaigning against puppy farming, it was called Free Fido Campaign, it started with showing two cavaliers each looking at each other face to face and the question was 'can you tell the difference' and continued to say one was born on a puppy farm the other bred by a responsible breeder. They both looked identical. It was very effective and it did reach a large audience.  Maybe something along these lines could be considered but of course the cost could be prohibitve.   

Brainless ..I think that is a brilliant idea ..visiting primary schools ...

Polly
I always say avoid dealers and pet shops. Avoid free ad newspapers and Internet sites advertising puppies for sale. Avoid multi breed ads - some breeders will seperate the ads with various different breeds but same mobile/landline number, sometimes even different mobile numbers.
They can always ask the Council if a breeder is licensed by them as a breeder or pet shop but some Councils say it is not public information. Another route is FOI.
If have made all the checks that they have been advised to do and they still find they are visiting a breeder that does not meet expectations then please walk away.  If neccessary report them.

> They can always ask the Council if a breeder is licensed by them as a breeder or pet shop but some Councils say it is not public information. Another route is FOI

Even if licensed by a council some places are still puppy farms aren't they. I know Sian Morgan ITV Wales did a programme of puppy farming which was very good, and some of the kennels they filmed were council licensed puppy farms. As it is late I am being somewhat slow... what is FOI?

Right I am yawning way too much and have another early start.. so I'll look in tomorrow.

l">The information IS out there and those who look will find it.  And those who don't care won't. <i
I agree the information is out there - but people need to know WHAT to look for,; WHAT questions to ask; WHY that breed/er; WHO to ask; WHERE to buy from; HOW are they going to get support if/when things go wrong etc.... 
Papers and shops and outlets and the internet are full of dogs for sale/re-home how can 'I' tell what's right or wrong?

I'd imagine that generally avoiding the Licensed establishments would be the advice, as they would be breeding commercially, as well as unlicensed large scale/commercial breeders.

I wouldn't want a puppy from someone that viewed breeding as a business.

I think it needs to be a really simple advertising campaign - the newly formed Dog Advisory Council should formulate something like the Accredited Breeders Scheme ( or even use the KC one  with a few adjustments ! ) then send out loads of car stickers to Vets, pets shops, training clubs and anywhere dog related - the stickers should have a simple slogan something along the lines of " Buy Responsibly- buy Accredited " with an eye catching symbol of a puppy and the web address of the Accredited scheme - ( the website should then have all the criteria to look for and a list of accredited breeders for each breed ).

The public need something easy and clear to understand - the message will be seen on a daily basis on loads of cars and will reinforce the scheme in their minds - and  the demand for ABS pups will drive less ethical breeders to either join and change their practices in order to sell their pups or go out of business .

Yvonne

Yvonne good idea but the wording would have to be changed. The word ' accredited' can be used by any breeder and so quite easy to mislead the public. A very good example of this is a breeder who runs a puppy farm that was ABS but was thrown out but still uses 'accredited' in all their advertising.

Right, first I am no expert.

Our first two pedigrees Jake & Whistler are the only ones I can talk about.

Whistler I went on to the KC website and searched for a Cocker show type on the breeders list. I found Alyson phoned her, went to see her and the pups, I asked the questions on the KC website. They were born in the utility room, Mum (Cassie) was there a real honey, I got Whis with a pack, KC papers and a bit of blanket smelling of Mum - he's my pal and my love no health problems. (£650 he is 4 on 15th Feb).

Jake - OH has always wanted a Border Collie, Colin is very active and walks in and out or work - 3.5 miles each way. We can also keep the dogs here at work with us 24/7. I went on line typed in sheepdogs and got a website. Andy breeds and trains sheepdogs in Worcester (miles away we are in Winchester). He grilled Colin made him go for an interview, walked him (in a suit) up muddy hills with his dogs and agreed to sell us a pup. Then I paid £450 we visited again when Pearl had her pups picked our Jake and collected him at about 9 weeks he was almost feral, never been handled and is Col's soul mate a superb dog. Born in the barn, kept outside with about 30 others. We have had OCD in his shoulder but that was our fault for over exercising him and a damn ball chucker when he was too young. As I said we are amatures.

So one home born acclimatised, 1 barn bred unhandled - we have two lap dogs now very calm, absolutley made our lives complete after the kids left home. We have built most holidays around them and we are a lot fitter and happier than 4 years ago. Jake is 4 on April 19th by the way and he is a big BC (ISDS) and he loves me when "his" owner is out in London - he goes on site has his own yellow jacket and is a Scout as well.  They both have done 12 mile scout hikes (with kneckers - the kids love them) and both come home knackered and thats us not them.

So there is good and bad in both systems of breeding, IMHO.

We had more grief getting Jake than Whistler because Andy ensured we "knew" what we would take on with a BC they are 24/7 dogs and should never ever be left to get bored.

They can always ask the Council if a breeder is licensed by them as a breeder or pet shop but some Councils say it is not public information. Another route is FOI

Even if licensed by a council some places are still puppy farms aren't they. I know Sian Morgan ITV Wales did a programme of puppy farming which was very good, and some of the kennels they filmed were council licensed puppy farms. As it is late I am being somewhat slow... what is FOI?

Right I am yawning way too much and have another early start.. so I'll look in tomorrow.

Polly, sorry, I do not always make myself very clear, when I suggested that a person can ask the Council if an advertiser holds a dog breeders licence or pet shop licence I did not not mean that indicated something 'good' I meant that should indicate that they are breeding and selling on a commercial scale and should be avoided.

Sometimes because advertisers split their ads when they sell or breed multiple breeds of puppies (to make the advertiser appear to be a private breeder) contacting the Council is one way of clarifying the situation (a google search often finds the answer too).

Yes, there have been some good TV programes in recent times on puppy farming they can all be viewed on my web site puppy alert or on puppy love campaigns site. It is very neccessary for the public to be aware that although some unlicensed dog breeders/puppy farmers are supplying pet shops and dealers a very, very large majority are licensed commercial dog breeders/puppy farmers who supply litters of puppies from Wales. 
By the way FOI is Freedom of Information.   

It would be could to be able to fly the flag when advertsing KC accredited breeder if the scheme was fool proof but of course it is not. I know of one licensed commercial breeder who was well known for one breed, they were thrown out of the breed club for this breed but applied to the KC to become an accredited breeder in another breed and joined their breed club they were given KC accredited status.  They still own and breed from other breeds and have a licence (they are a commercial breeder), the KC have been advised but because they sell these 'other' breeds through dealers these litters are lost in the system. The KC when contacted asked for proof of owning and breeding from other dogs - an unannounced visit to the premises could give the KC the evidence they needed to remove from the scheme. But as far as I am aware that has not taken place.

Therefore a prospective purchaser looking for a puppy from this KC accredited breeder in this example would not actually be going to an ethical breeder. Therefore nothing can be taken on face value and each individual must do their homework and make their own judgement - KC Accredited standing on its own cannot always meet expectations in every case.  I personally think the KC should ensure they visit every applicant prior to giving accreditation to any breeder and check their past history.   

Therefore a prospective purchaser looking for a puppy from this KC accredited breeder in this example would not actually be going to an ethical breeder.
There are many Accredited Breeders in my breed that I couldn't recommend.  They have owned the breed for a couple of years have no knowledge about lines, breeding etc and have little experience of the breed to pass on to prospective owners but they do health test (don't understand the results!) and tick all the KC boxes - I don't see that as a way forward for puppy buyers.
Soon after the scheme started I visited one breeder who was sleeping dogs outside on concrete with no bedding and frozen water when it was -6 at night and were ungroomed for 12 months.  She said "I've only got to get my dogs chipped and I can be an Accredited Breeder"!
I don't think that you can use it as a blanket recommendation.

I would use the much more basic -

1. Watch the RSPCA video.
2. Investigate the Kennel Club website and particularly investigate the relevant health tests for the breed.
3. When you choose a litter to go and see, see pups with their Mother. 
Ask to see the health examination certificates. 
Make sure that the breeder is in some way involved in the dog world.
Ask why the litter was bred and why the stud was chosen ie to produce nice pets or to progress the line.
Look for clean environment and happy, generally healthy looking dogs.
And don't choose the first litter.  Go and look at another so that you have something to compare with.

I feel just that is an awful lot for the average pet person with little understanding of the dog world to take on board and anything more is beyond someone who buys a puppy once every 15 or so years.

Agree it's a minefield.

Perhaps all new owners that are nto dog world savvy should be referred to a Local Canine society that could have a member appointed as a puppy buying adviser.

Without a personal axe to grind re breed, breeder etc they could help guide people and read between the lines of what is a good breeder and what is pretending to be and what is an out and out cowboy.

A bit like the AA/RAC is it that checks out cars that are being sold by dealers.  Many people when going to buy a car take a friendly mechanic with them, and this could be put across in an advert showing the "would you buy a car from this guy" and also "would you by a pup from this guy"  Show shiny T-Cutted car (and a balloon showing the problems and cover ups) and then a nice looking litter in a puppy pen with cuddly toys (and balloon showing the condition Mum and other breeding stock are living and rearing in), or use the cowboy builder as an example, even more similar.

Hey Joannne your good post disappered and a blank one appeared.

With the best will in the world..I fear that an obvious solution to this problem will be very hard to formulate.

With hundereds of contacts and scores of years in breeding and showing pedigree dogs - I would find it difficult to source a good puppy in many breeds.

In my own breed, I would probably give up the search.

Too many people are not what they seem-  making it a very difficult task for puppy buyers.

Couldn't agree more Toolz which is why I think you can only give very basic advice and the Kennel Club info and RSPCA (spit! :) ) is probably as good as it gets.  The rest is very personal and due to experience. :)

As Martin Clunes is very much into dogs and animals and has done a few programs now perhaps a celebrity like him would be a good way to get the message to the wider audience. It needs to be done in a way that will capture JP attention

Yes I really enjoy his series too....so maybe a series that follows the lives of several different breeds of puppies from birth to new homes...and then following the ones who go onto the show ring.... I would be fascinated by that type of series....and would want to make sure I watched it every week to see how everyone is getting on.... It could feature maybe a numerically small breed....and a breed that some of the public may perceive as problematic.... and a small breed and a large breed.....

And at least if it was made as a series it would be repeated over and over :)

Now hands up....who knows Martin Clunes...or knows someone who knows Martin Clunes...?? :)

I like the idea of celeb support...it's a shame but it will reach people that way. Chris Packham (might not be spelt right) is another I always think of - loves his poodles!

There's one big problem to overcome as I see it (and talking to people I know who have dogs). Rehoming centres and many responsible breeders are reluctant to rehome/sell a pup to people who have young kids/work more than xx hours etc. Some breeder (perfectly responsible in most ways) will not rehome to people on a 'whim'...don't like tone of conversations/ask too many or not enough questions/don't have a big garden etc etc. I can't help but feel that it is these things which often drive people to go for the option of a pup/dog with easier access.

I'm not saying that breeders and rehoming centres shouldn't be choosy about who they give their dogs to - absolutely they should - but it's not going to stop people with kids/jobs/bad attitudes wanting a puppy.

So you either need to persuade those people that a dog full stop is a bad idea (virtually impossible in many cases I would say) or find another way of getting pups to people who have good intentions but not such well suited lifestyles.
Does that make sense?

Please don't think, though, that I think it's anyones right to have a dog because I don't - we waited years to be in the right situation ourselves.

I'm just thinking of the motivation people have to go to puppy farms/byb/pet shops or whatever and consequently wondering if there's any way out of the mess that it is...?
Education on where to look will go a fair way but it's not going to tackle the above problem.

Education on where to look will go a fair way but it's not going to tackle the above problem

Exactly as if somebody is refused a rescue or goes to a reputable breeder and get a refusal for what ever reason it wont stop them going elsewhere.

That is why there is a supply and demand out there at the moment and I dobt you are ever going to be in a posution to change that just by education. You can highlight the risks but people will ultimately ignore it if the risks are not great enough to change their mind.

heheheeh brainless i went to edit it,went downstairs to get the postout of stans teeth,came up two secs later and my 3 year old had deleted it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!will try to write it again later,but dont know if its any good,just my experiance :)

There's one big problem to overcome as I see it (and talking to people I know who have dogs). Rehoming centres and many responsible breeders are reluctant to rehome/sell a pup to people who have young kids/work more than xx hours etc. Some breeder (perfectly responsible in most ways) will not rehome to people on a 'whim'...don't like tone of conversations/ask too many or not enough questions/don't have a big garden etc etc. I can't help but feel that it is these things which often drive people to go for the option of a pup/dog with easier access.

I agree with this Katien...there is a very fine line here....

I had a lady phoned me up once and came to visit my one last puppy from a litter...she was lovely in every way...told me all about herself her life her family...and ended up by saying " I would really like to take him...if you think I'm worthy enough..?? I felt a little taken aback and asked why she had the impression that she might not be "worthy enough"..??

"Oh" she replied...."I'm not very good at writing emails and I don't think I come across very well on the phone" So for this reason she hadn't been able to get past the first stage of her enquiries and someone...somewhere missed out on a wonderful home for their puppy...because my little man in is in a great (raw-fed) home judging by the pics and letters she sends now and again in the post....

It is a tough one....between being overly protective....and....not putting the fear of (insert favoured deity) into someone just because they're asking about your puppy...

i have to say i dont always agree with the accredited breeder,this is my experiances as a buyer,what i have learnt and also how i will look again,my first dog was george the pug,went through all the usual sensible routes to get him,phone the kc for a list of kc breeders with pups,did tons of research and called a few up,found a lady selling pups(one was george)and had a talk on the phone to her,asked her all about the breed and the health probs they can get(was told they were very healthy and never ill)asked about health tests(spine xray which both parents had had so no way pups could have hv)apparently pups had already been checked for long soft palate and were clear,she told me about the stud being an amazing international champion and the owner of the stud was a champ show judge and high up on the comittee,i spoke to the owner of the stud who had the same answers to the lady with the pups and i thought i was getting the cream of the crop,went and saw pups,few weeks later picked up george and a bowl for food and home we came,both breeder and stud owner said any probs call anytime,well as you know,george had every hereditry health problem going,hv,entropion,slipping pattellas,BAOS,laryx collapse,hiatus hernia etc etc.Now i never ever blamed either breeder,but the aftercare and support stopped as soon as i told them georges conditions,they stopped answering the phone,told me to keep quiet,carry on showing him,pts etc etc,this is what upset me,i saw them at champ shows when i was with my other pug and they ignored me,tis is not the behaviour you would expect from a top show persom,top show dogs etc and someone who is on the comitee,i just wanted their help and they wanted my dog and me to dissapear.Since then,the breeder of george has also become high up on the comitteee,she had pups not so long ago and when asked if she had ever ever had any pug or pups with any hereditry probs she said no,you dont expect this behaviour or dishonesty form someone on a comitteee,reg with the kc,i had rose tinted glasses on when i got george,not always the best IS the best,
When i decided to get stan the newf,i did similar in research and then found the lady who had pups(stan)she was AMAZING, a walking encylopidioa of newf health and info,she told me upfront every health prob a newf could get,the health tests available(she had all them done)etc,we saw the pups and spent a go few hours chattin about them,we then returned to collect stan,once again we sat with pups,chatted everything through,i previously met stans mum,gran,half bro,also website and number for stans dad,she gave me a folder full of info on newfs,what to expect and how to deal with each stage of their life(all written by her,not a leaflet)i signed a contract so i would not send stan abroad,he must have all health tests before breeding and to return him to her if god forbid i cant keep him one day,she also microchipped him for me,i could have kissed her,so honest and caring and does her upmost for the breed and health,she said about calling anytime for help,and has kept her word,i call her and she is always avaliable for a chat and info,she is not just stans breeder now,she is my friend,i had such a good experiance with her i am hoping to buy another newf from her in the future,she also is kc reg dogs and shows and judges,but it was such a better and caring and honest experiance,i wish i could bottle her up and everyone could deal with someone like that when buying a pup

As I said Joanne..."Too many people are not what they seem-  making it a very difficult task for puppy buyers."

dont know if this will help at all but this is how i found my puppy (well still waiting for him to be born but u know what i mean)

Just wanted to say I wish everyone did all you did -and good luck! :) :)

thank you MarianneB, ive wanted a dog since i was 7 and im now 24 and still waiting lol, so i was determined to get the right dog not just any dog.

> like the AA/RAC is it that checks out cars that are being sold by dealers.  Many people when going to buy a car take a friendly mechanic with them, and this could be put across in an advert showing the "would you buy a car from this guy" and also "would you by a pup from this guy"  Show shiny T-Cutted car (and a balloon showing the problems and cover ups) and then a nice looking litter in a puppy pen with cuddly toys (and balloon showing the condition Mum and other breeding stock are living and rearing in), or use the cowboy builder as an example, even more similar.

Great idea

OK in my experience, this type of breeding is where the vast majority of dog problems come from  ....... :(  ?
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/128712.html
You can't stop people producing puppies like this because just by The Kennel Club refusing to register them, so what could be done to stop people buying?  I don't think you can...........
Can you imagine the backlash if a 'mentor' said "I don't think you should buy a puppy from here"?  Compensation culture....??????? :(
I WISH I had a magic wand!