This statement said IT ALL about the ignorance we see from these posters. Breeding is NOT a profession for anyone responsible, it is a very, very expensive hobby and way of life!

Oxford Dictionery Definition of Profession:

a vocation or calling, especially one that involves some branch of advanced learning or science.

Well, I am extremely confused now!  I thought all breeders on here who were upset at the thought of being  lumped together with PFs or BYB or other irresponsible breeders saw their involvement in breeding as exactly what the above definition states.

I am extremely sorry if you are offended MarianneB and withdraw wholeheartedly what I thought to be a compliment to all knowledgable, reputable and good breeders in applying the term profession to breeding.  My mistake entirely and I stand corrected.

Well according to my English-Swedish dictionary profession means yrke, and that definitely is your job. And checking your Oxford, vocation DOES mean one's job:

vocation(vo|ca¦tion)
  

Pronunciation:/və(ʊ)ˈkeɪʃ(ə)n/
noun

    *
      a strong feeling of suitability for a particular career or occupation:not all of us have a vocation to be nurses or doctors
    *
      a person's employment or main occupation, especially regarded as worthy and requiring dedication:her vocation as a poet
    *
      a trade or profession.

>> What I find very interesting is that people "who speak up for pedigree dogs" like Suzique and Jocelyn have never done anything proactive to help.
>
> What on earth do you base that on?  You know nothing of what people do privately behind the scenes.?

Well I did ask you what you had done and are doing? See below I repeat:

>What I find very interesting is that people "who speak up for pedigree dogs" like Suzique and Jocelyn have never done anything proactive to help. Why should they 'speak up' if they are merely shouting the odds? I know many here feel that you should be a breeder but what can either of you say hand on heart, you have personally done for the betterment of any breed? Have you raised funds for research? Have you submitted your dogs when they died to research? Have you even had them autopsied? While they are alive have either of you taken them for any form of health test? (I include crossbred and heinz 57 varieties as well as pedigrees in these questions)<

In the UK the term Profession has always been applied to and used to describe the legal profession, medical profession, teaching profession and caring profession to cite just some. 

Its usages had an inbuilt meaning in that people 'employed' whether salaried or voluntarily in those professions were highly educated, had strong sense of right and wrong, made valued judgements, put others before themselves, often went the extra mile and were never paid highly enough relative the amount of work they did or the extra care they took in doing it, and conducted themselves in a professional manner in all that they said and did.

But, its fine by me, on the advice of a 'breeder' I will from now on refer to breeding as an expensive hobby.

But, its fine by me, on the advice of a 'breeder' I will from now on refer to breeding as an expensive hobby.

Good, because you did want the TRUTH at all times and this is it. Now how about telling us what you yourself has done for your breed?

Not trying to single anybody out, just using you suzieque to try to get accross my thoughts (bear with me :) )

> You know nothing of what people do privately behind the scenes.?

In general I don't think the level of anybodies involvement is relevent in the discussion of canine welfare. Even a mere pet-owner, like myself, who does nothing active for dogs welfare (other than stress the inportance of a good breeder to anybody who will listen!) are entitled to an opinion.
However, I do understand that comments, that come accross as a bsshing to the good breeders are not constructive and only serve to start arguments, even more so are anti-pedigree dog comments that are stated as fact but based on no knowledge.

Poor breeding practice is a problem to canine health & well being, this is something that directly effects anybody that owns a dog and effects, morally, anybody that cares about canine welfare issues.

I have made several contributions to this thread and am starting to feel that my opinion is of no concern to good breeders (as I am not pro-active in canine welfare), but I shouldn't feel like that. I am a member of the public - the public have vast power to change things. Allthough I appreciate why backs have been put up on this thread, the general tone is giving the message that the publics opinions dont count, which in turn gets the publics backs up against breeders in general. I know this is not the intention, but it how things are starting to come accross :(

Going back a bit in this discussion, regarding EDUCATING Jo Public

I was contacted by a distant relative regarding helping them find a healthy, health tested pup as their first dog had been PTS at a young age.  They had bought it from what can only be described as a puppy producer and despite being a dear little soul was nothing like the breed and continually at the vets, eventually needing PTS.

I spent time educating them as to what constituted a good breeder, what health tests their breed should have and what the results should be.  I even found them a few breeders with pups who were recommended by other owners/breeders/breed clubs.   All this in a breed I don't own and never have so pretty time-consuming for me doing all the research.

I didn't hear from the family for a month or so, but when I met them out walking their new pup, I could see immediately that they had ignored everything.  The scrap on the lead again looked nothing like the breed and looked a very sorry specimen.  Wasn't health tested as "there wasn't any need" :(

They told me that the breeders I found were too far away, however, the pup they bought was actually much further away, so I don't believe that for a second.

This is not my first experience.

We can spend as much time as we like trying to educate people but at the end of the day, they have to take full responsibility for what they buy and any consequences.  

Trying to blame good breeders for what bad breeders do is like trying to blame good drivers for what drink-drivers do.  

Pointless.

I have made several contributions to this thread and am starting to feel that my opinion is of no concern to good breeders (as I am not pro-active in canine welfare), but I shouldn't feel like that

I feel so sad and this is one of the saddest things I've read. ((((hug))))

You've been on this board a long time, everything you say is valued, I can see how things have come across, truth is this whole latter few pages of the thread are all based on the one or two people who forever make sweeping statements.

There is a huge difference between a poster like yourself and say 'Jocelyn' I'm really saddened that you don't see the difference. (In fact, quite shocked) Everyone has a voice and most enjoy listening and learning, we all learn from each other. The fact that some posters can enrage us to use the ignore button, doesn't mean we are not interested in others opinions who do not breed, have you honestly ever had that opinion before? I hope not because I for one think your brilliant and value your opinion. :-)

I hope not because I for one think your brilliant and value your opinion.

Same here, your opinions are much valued and always posted in a friendly way, totally different to the others that have offended.

>I have made several contributions to this thread and am starting to feel that my opinion is of no concern to good breeders (as I am not pro-active in canine welfare

But you are ... your posts on here are very helpful and educational; over the months and years you've been posting you've been happy to share your experiences of rearing a minority breed, and how you've resolved problems. That makes your opinion based on reality, knowledge and fact, and therefore valid. :-)

In general I don't think the level of anybodies involvement is relevent in the discussion of canine welfare. Even a mere pet-owner, like myself, who does nothing active for dogs welfare (other than stress the inportance of a good breeder to anybody who will listen!) are entitled to an opinion.

And I would second you in that ML.

But unfortunately, due to the few who seem to be concentrating more on nit-picking, hair splitting and deliberately trying to discredit people as a means of deflecting attention from the REAL issue being debated, there is a resistence to say anything at all because they suspect it will lead to further nit-picking, hair splitting, grounds for attempts to discredit etc.

I have never on this forum (or any other) discredited breeders but have always acknowledged the fact that breeding is a highly specialised field not entered into lightly.  I have continually stated that I for one, as a member of Joe Public, did not think the PDE applied to all breeders and all breeds and have supported good breeders and the work they do all along.

But because I feel there was some merit in what the PDE exposed and work to be done to rectify damage already done it seems that me and others like me are an easy target for breeders offended by the PDE to vent their bitterness and throw out threats of using their IGNORE button to get posters thrown off the site.  Their justification - not toally sharing a point of view!

What a sad state of affairs.  One can only ask if this is what being a member of CD means then perhaps it is better not to be a member.

> have you honestly ever had that opinion before?

No I haven't.
The problem is with a more emotive is that things can come accross as either too personal or too general. I know that the good breeders on here are allready doing a fanstastic job and can understand why they are forced into taking more of a defensive apporach against some people, but a few comments (allthough I don't thenk were meant generally, have come accross as general) have given the impression that only pro-active people opinions are important.

I'm not too good at explaining what I mean (hence the waffling!) but I was trying to get accross the point that even if a member like me (that often contributes without getting dismissed) is getting this impression, then other readers may be also, which I know is not what the good breeders want to happen atall (does that make sense?).

> value your opinion.

Thank you carrignton, that's much appreciated :)

ML the HUGE difference is you don't come on here and lecture GOOD breeders and try to make out we are all as bad as puppy farmers.  Anyone can shout about this and that, but do they do anything BUT shout? Action speaks louder than words, which is why I would love to know what these shouters actually DO to help their breed other than shout. You don't have to be a breeder. Anyone who wants to have an involvement in their breed can for instance make sure to be breed club members, help out at Discover Dogs and similar. I joined my first breed club at the same time as getting my first dog -and he was only ever a pet. It was decades before I bred a litter and quite a few years before I even attended a show as an exhibitor. But I kept up with what was going on in the breed and didn't base my opinion of what the media might have said.

Mastifflover,
I just wanted to say two things. Firstly, I think your posts are some of the most balanced I see on this site and secondly that I can fully understand your feelings.
I too am just a pet dog owner, I don't breed, show, do agility or anything else much to actively improve the welfare of dogs.
The opinions and experiences of people like us should be VITAL to an argument like this. We sit on neither side of the 'fence' and can only say it as we see it with no ulterior motive. Why, then, do people like this - who's attention you NEED to attract to deal with the underlying issue here (educating the public) - feel that they can't contribute to a discussion because of their lack of 'involvement'.
Added to that is the futility of it all. From what I read, most people have the same aim - to improve the welfare of dogs in general, but no-one will listen to eachother...too busy point-scoring or arguing amongst themselves about dictionary definitions...
So very sad. The joined forces of people on this forum could surely make such a difference if mind was put to it.

Mastifflover, I hope I haven't misrepresented your feelings here...these are mine, in any case.

I'm 'just' a pet owner too Mastifflover but like you I only pass comment where I have experience of the situation - we have both been in the situation where we have had to look for healthy puppies, I have most certainly been in the situation of having a dog ( 2 actually) with severe HD despite both his parents and many of his siblings having excellent scores. I have owned cross breeds, mongrels and pedigrees in my time, one of which was on the import register. We don't however, try to teach our grannies to suck eggs or preach about things we only have a little inkling about. Some posters seem to think its OK to come on here and spout half truths as fact then become resentful when they are picked up on this by more experienced posters and asked what their credentials are for doing so. I know nothing about genetics or how various traits are passed on and I would never presume to post on such a subject, others don't seem to be able to stop themselves acting as the fount of all knowledge. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing!

Spot on Dakkobear! :-)

Good, because you did want the TRUTH at all times

Really?  Funny, I don't recall stating that anywhere,  I think you must be mixing me up with someone else!

> regarding EDUCATING Jo Public

Sadly, I think the media has much more impact on public perception than real advice face-to face :( (hence why I can't repeat enough how sad it is Jemima ignored this opportunity!!)

People tend to take on board what they see on the TV and what they read about on the 'net as valuable information and generally favour that than anything said directly to them (IME).

For example, my dad & sis know I am very interested in dog behaviour and will often ask me questions, but my asnwers are taken with a oinch of salt, so I have taken to directing them to web-sites as they will 'listen' to the info they read.

This is why this site is so valuable for any would-be puppy buyer. They can come hear and find out how to go about things the right way. Granted, some people aren't really after advice, they just want thier own ideas backed up, so will go away with nothing learnt. But geniune poeple open to honest advice will learn heaps here :)

I have not meant to cause any bad feeling to any breeder hear by my earlier post - I know they have not intended things the way I initially thought they come accross, but I worry about important threads like this turning into an argument that would alientate would-be puppy buyers from the fantastic advice & info that good breeders here have to offer.

Good, because you did want the TRUTH at all times

Really?  Funny, I don't recall stating that anywhere,  I think you must be mixing me up with someone else!

So you DON'T want the truth? Weird. I thought that was what this entire thread was about. Speaking the truth and not making it up to suit -like a certain person did.

Not replying to anyone in particular but this thread is starting to feel like the dog who pulls on one end of the leash.... and the owner who pulls on the other end of the leash....and neither is understanding the other's point of view...and the walk becomes a nightmare for all concerned. The dog...the owner...other dogs....and passers by.

When just a small shift in perception and understanding of each others point of view... would maybe result in the walk becoming a much more pleasurable experience...walking together...and moving towards a common destination....in harmony...??

Just my thoughts..admin feel free to delete if it detracts from the discussion...

>When just a small shift in perception and understanding of each others point of view...

A simple "Yes, I got the emphasis wrong; a programme that included how to avoid puppy farmers and source a healthy puppy would have been much more helpful for so many more dogs" from Jemima is all it would take. :-)

What I find very interesting is that people "who speak up for pedigree dogs" like Suzique and Jocelyn have never done anything proactive to help. Why should they 'speak up' if they are merely shouting the odds? I know many here feel that you should be a breeder but what can either of you say hand on heart, you have personally done for the betterment of any breed? Have you raised funds for research? Have you submitted your dogs when they died to research? Have you even had them autopsied? While they are alive have either of you taken them for any form of health test? (I include crossbred and heinz 57 varieties as well as pedigrees in these questions)
I have not bred a litter since 1996, but in support of my breed I have had my dogs regularly health checked for eye disease hips elbows and other tests, and I also organise health testing for other breeds. I do DNA collections for breed clubs and breeders as well I also raise funds for research and other the years have raised thousands of pounds. I am not a rich person I do not have a fancy house, I actually live in a housing association house, add to that I know I have health issues which mean some of the things I do with dogs could put me at great personal risk, but I believe you only have the right to criticise if you do not do anything to help these dogs. EVERY breeder and owner on this forum spend hours planning breedings to maximise the puppies future good health. They also donate to research money, their dogs if they die of a suspected health problem and regularly health test their stock.
So what have you ever done to promote breed health?

my point EXACTLY !!

Yvonne

There are one or two of you who would like me to justifi my opinons about breeding and tell you want involvement I have with dog's.

I am by nature a very private person and will not put personal details about myself on the internet, so I would'nt tell you very much for that reason.
I am very much involved with dogs and their owners, part of that involvement means I have to know about  health problums in dogs caused by breeding or otherwise.
I see many healthy pedigree dogs and crossbreeds everyweek, some people buy from good breeders, others from BYB (as you call them) some are from rescue centre's, and some owners are breeders.
I am still seeing a number of dogs struggling with exaggerated features and dogs who have other problums connected with bad breeding.

I also help out at a rescue centre.

I love dogs, all dogs no matter want breed or cross they are, (of course I have my favourite breed)   and I am very concerned about bad breeding practices. Inbreeding is very alarming, we are in danger of looseing some of the breeds altogether if people don't act fast.

Anyone who has a dog whatever type, or anyone who just loves dogs, or anyone concerned about dogs in some way has a right to a say about breeding. Breeding is where it all starts.

I have said before you don't need a degree in genetics to see where breeding is going wrong, you don't need to be a breeder either. I have studyed genetics, I would'nt call myself an expert, I know more than some people and less than others.

Some times you have to say what you see.
I have had some very bad comments from one or two of you, that are not worth answering as they are irrelevant to the topic.

I know I have been very blunt alot of the time. I make no apology's for that. I watched PDE again last night and while dogs are still suffering from bad breeding we need to be blunt about it, sometimes I have done that to get people talking again, because we need to talk about dog breeding and thrash it out sometimes.

I know some of you are very good breeders, and I don't want to hurt you in any way, you are to be encoraged, and if I have offened you then I do apolgise.

One thing I have learnt since I joined CD, that is the problems with pedigree dogs is far worse that I had thought.

We all want the same thing, healthy dogs.

regarding EDUCATING Jo Public

I have a 1st time dog owner come to class. She has a very small -stable yard type- JR terrier which is VERY 'hoppy' on one back leg - oh all JRs do that! - who is STILL thinking about mating her to the farriers JR dog, yes I have talked till I am blue in the face, told her she will need time off work (she works nearly full time), preached health tests etc all to no avail. yes she saw the 'poisonous productions' programme - which is why she didn't get a pedigree breed.

No I do not breed but I am on my 3rd GSD, 1st came from BYB had various health problems all his life and lost at 8, last one and current ones came from good health tested stock despite the R$PCA chief mechanic refering to the breed as 'deformed mutants' and next dog - age permitting - will come from same type of breeder, you know - the ones who don't care.
Chris

A simple "Yes, I got the emphasis wrong; a programme that included how to avoid puppy farmers and source a healthy puppy would have been much more helpful for so many more dogs" from Jemima is all it would take. 

Has anyone asked her if there are funds available for her to make such a programme...also to be aired on prime time TV...?? There would be plenty of people here to help with the making of it I would think...??

Day by day I have read all of this thread following the various comments.  I too watched Pedigree Dogs Exposed and I for one am pleased that someone who had the means available to them to be able to produce such a programe did so to highlight the fact that too many dogs are bred from with over exagerated features that resemble very little to the dogs of generations ago.  Such a a GSD with a straight back, (GSDs now with favoured sloping back) as just one example. How and why has this come about and allowed to continue through generations of breeding and showing until it has become 'normal' when it is far from normal? 
Dogs continue to be bred from with hereditary diseases when BVA, KC screening is available to detect some known diseases and conditions in various breeds but they are not used by all or made compulsory before breeding commences, why?
Good breeders are being defensive I can understand why if they do partake in screening.  But do all that show and breed to the KC standard, (enabling their dog  to be judged against the standard to win approval, to move through various shows ultimately to take the accolade at Crufts) or do they breed with health as a priority even if it goes slightly against the KC standard to win at shows?  For example if the standard says short muzzle or as the cavalier on the programe with a too small scull to contain its brain without pressure (hope my memory serves me right) would they continue to breed to the standard even if it is dertimental to the health of the dog? Would showing a dog overide common sense in breeding with a slighter longer longer muzzle to aid breathing or a slightly larger head even though to do so may not meet approval of the judge or win a rosette?
Because until breeders themselves take the initiative that to breed for the betterment for the breed which is not the same as to breed to win rossetes and cups at shows because the standard has demanded that they produce a dog that conforms to the standard as laid down by the KC.  Is that not the point of what JH was trying to say that dogs need to be bred healthy and as the programe showed there are many that are not and when they took part in shows at the what is condsidered to be the accolade of the the dog breeding world Crufts and winning then it is wrong.
I do not breed have never shown, so maybe I will get thrown out for having an opinion or asking a few questions on something that I have no working knowledge of and only visial in as much as watching Crufts attended Crufts (appalled at the Clumber Spaniels I saw with drooping lower eyelids, surely that cannot be normal and as the breed intended)?
It is diificult enough listening to and reading all the complaints (as I do) relating to people that have bought puppies from pet shops, dealers, commercial breeders, puppy farmers, back yard breeders and some who believe they are reputable breeders but a little research does indicate that they are not as reputable as they would like the pubic to peceive them to be. They can all breed and sell sick and diseased puppies with all manner of diseases and complaints, many could be preventable with screening and with care. It is not acceptable in all areas of dog breeding to (sometimes knowingly) to keep producing these diseased and sick puppies.
Is this the point that JH was trying to get over why are some breeders that also show their dogs given a high profile such as winning rosettes when their  dogs are sometimes not fit for function or of merchantable quality? The latter is certainly the case with puppies purchased from pet shops and dealers bred on puppy farms commercial breeders but surely one should expect more from ethical, reputable breeders (KC registered)but alas there is so often flat denial that we know best and there is nothing wrong with out chosen breed when visually it can be seen there clearly is (back to the GSD and Cavalier).
                
        

>She has a very small -stable yard type- JR terrier which is VERY 'hoppy' on one back leg - oh all JRs do that! -

I was assured that JRs skip "because they're such happy little dogs" by an owner who was aghast when told that they skip because their patellas slip and their knee has locked. She still wants to find someone to use her dog at stud, despite being told he needs surgery to make him walk normally, and that it's a hereditary condition (primarily connected to miniaturisation - small isn't necessarily better!).

>Has anyone asked her if there are funds available for her to make such a programme...also to be aired on prime time TV...??

With a little more forethought she could have done it the first time round, and have so much less damage to repair.

We all want the same thing, healthy dogs

..and in the end the ONLY people that can achieve this are those breeding them ...all the pontification in the world will make not one iota of difference if you do not have dog breeders 'on side' -take the LUA Dalmatian for example - the only way that their ( in my view important )  genetic contribution will impact within the breed is if breeders use them - the constant attacks and put downs will just make breeders and breed clubs pull up their drawbridges and close ranks ...one of the few truths that has come out of this debate is that we must all find a way of working together - stop point scoring and stop expecting breeders to perform miracles on one hand and stop denying that some change needs to happen on the other

and for goodness sake recognise and celebrate the many many excellent breeders and healthy pedigree dogs that are out there instead of doing a Chicken Little impersonation and telling the puppy buying public that the  'sky is falling in ' on the pedigree dog world !

Yvonne

What a sad state of affairs.  One can only ask if this is what being a member of CD means then perhaps it is better not to be a member.

close the door on your way out

>and for goodness sake recognise and celebrate the many many excellent breeders and healthy pedigree dogs that are out there instead of doing a Chicken Little impersonation and telling the puppy buying public that the  'sky is falling in ' on the pedigree dog world !

And so say all of us!

That one simple action would have had everyone on her side from the outset. We all know (or should at least be able to understand) how long it can take to rebuild trust in an abused animal; Jemima needs to prove herself trustworthy to the people she's maligned.

and for goodness sake recognise and celebrate the many many excellent breeders and healthy pedigree dogs that are out there instead of doing a Chicken Little impersonation and telling the puppy buying public that the  'sky is falling in ' on the pedigree dog world

Spot on as ever.

> I was assured that JRs skip "because they're such happy little dogs"

Years ago, my sister had 2 JRTs. She was told they skip beacuse they run so fast that thier short legs can't keep up!

Is that not the point of what JH was trying to say that dogs need to be bred healthy

Can I ask you a question (using the most horrific IMO case) after watching that programme, would you want to have a Cavalier?

Do you understand what that programme did, by not saying, there are thousands of healthy unaffected dogs out there, loads of good breeders, this is how you find them, this is the health checks you need to look out for and insist on, to avoid dogs like these, that didn't happen.

Instead the public were left with mouths wide open, thinking oh my goodness, I never want a Cav etc.

That just isn't right, the programme was too one sided.

I've had and been around pedigree dogs all my life, these sick, ill, inbred dogs haven't touched my life and I've been around a bit, the programme was a horror story, made to shock, if you want to shock fine, but offer the solution too. :-)

>the programme was a horror story, made to shock, if you want to shock fine, but offer the solution too.

And by offering the solution at the time, the shock value of the bad practices would have been even more hard-hitting, to the greater benefit of dogs.

Years ago, my sister had 2 JRTs. She was told they skip beacuse they run so fast that thier short legs can't keep up!

The JRT remarks has showed a fair bit here I think. Now had all those dogs with luxating patellae been pedigree show dogs, they would ALL have suffered FROM that specific condition, due to being bred for showing at the greed of breeders. Just as a large mongrel that aged seven starts to limp is suffering from age related arthritis, treated but not x-rayed, but when a pedigree dog does the exact same at the same age, it is HD because show breeders don't care about health.

Can I ask you a question (using the most horrific IMO case) after watching that programme, would you want to have a Cavalier?

Do you understand what that programme did, by not saying, there are thousands of healthy unaffected dogs out there

the worst part i feel about the programme was the breeder who deliberately used that stud dog knowing he had the awful disease. that was appaling and very upsetting. im sure that 'breeder' considers herself a 'good' breeder??  im wondering how the public can tell them apart?

Do you understand what that programme did, by not saying, there are thousands of healthy unaffected dogs out there, loads of good breeders, this is how you find them, this is the health checks you need to look out for and insist on, to avoid dogs like these, that didn't happen.


And that is EXACTLY what other tv programmes do. They tell you about bad companies, bad products -then go on to explain how to avoid them and how to find the good ones. Often you can even phone for advice, request a leaflet or go to a website for more info.

An opportunity lost, indeed.

> the cavalier on the programe with a too small scull to contain its brain without pressure (hope my memory serves me right) would they continue to breed to the standard even if it is dertimental to the health of the dog?

From what I understand it's not the size of the skull that causes the problem, but the results of the condition may equate to a "brain to big for the skull" via a fluid build up.

And that is EXACTLY what other tv programmes do. They tell you about bad companies, bad products -then go on to explain how to avoid them and how to find the good ones. Often you can even phone for advice, request a leaflet or go to a website for more info.

An opportunity lost, indeed.

Ah but they are people who are more concerned with the subject than making a name for themselves. :(

the worst part i feel about the programme was the breeder who deliberately used that stud dog knowing he had the awful disease. that was appaling and very upsetting. im sure that 'breeder' considers herself a 'good' breeder?

We were only told that dog had SM, we were not told what his grade was. Like with so many other problems, you sometimes have to breed affected to clear to not lose an entire line or entire breed. That does NOT mean the pups would be ILL.  The dog was obviously not symptomatic as he showed no signs in the TV footage. How do we know he wasn't only mated to clear bitches? We don't so we can't judge. It was the vet interviewed (who came up with the "brain to big for the skull" misinformation) that devised the SM breeding programme for cavaliers. See link.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/syringo/guide.html

thanks MarrianeB but thats a lot of confusing info for a layperson. how can we trust breeders are going along with this breeding programme? What of all the breeders who arent doing MRI scanning?
i still cant understand why we 'arent breeding for a litter of pups that cant be affected'. surely that is the ultimate aim in the long run? i can understand how using affected dogs may be neccesary in the short term

>how can we trust breeders are going along with this breeding programme?

Publicising it would go a long way - TV is the medium which has the biggest impact, reaching the largest number of people.

how can we trust breeders are going along with this breeding programme? What of all the breeders who arent doing MRI scanning?
i still cant understand why we 'arent breeding for a litter of pups that cant be affected'. surely that is the ultimate aim in the long run?

All those of us NOT breeding Cavaliers can do is make sure we ONLY buy from breeders who can show the parents (and ideally grandparents as well) of the pups have been MRI scanned with good results. It's the one and only way to get all breeders to do it. Don't buy unless they test. I have had Cavaliers for years, but never bred them, and for the past ten years or so ONLY had them as pets.(I did show them for a little while.) When my oldie (15) died April last year I wanted another but obviously wanted a healthy pup that potentially could live as long as my previous one -although I'll never COUNT on 15 of any dog, whatever breed. So I did my homework, asked people in the breed for advice (here on CD as it happens), and found a pup from tested parents. Turned out to be from the very same breeder my last one came from. I was very happy to buy my pup knowing his parents were clear. I could have got a cheaper pup very easily, in fact I could have found dozens available to buy, from parents not tested, but I wanted the best. I also wanted my pet to LOOK like his breed, and act like it. If everyone demanded it, pups from untested parents would not sell. As it is now, people think that pups from non show dogs are healthy so they happily buy them even though the parents could be affected with all sorts. :(

But yes, the ultimate aim of course is to only breed from clear dogs and indeed there are breeders that do this, like the one my Cavalier came from.

im wondering how the public can tell them apart?

They can't, they don't know what to look for, where to find good breeders, the TV show was the best chance in the world to spread that news. It's what we have been wishing for for years and years for someone on a prime time show to give out that vital and it is vital information.

What happened?.................. badly bred pedigree dogs got slated. UMPH!

The worry for me is that if we are not managing to get through to a few posters here how on earth do we get through to the public at large?  If the public take the same stance as posters on we are right everyone else is wrong what hope is there?

I suppose people like me do forget that JH used CD as something of a research resource, prior to the programme being made, so I think there is an enormous sense of betrayal by those on here who probably feel their knowledge and goodwill was both used and abused.

That said, I think that the levels of anger and reasons for it, are so clear that it might now be best if, as Toolz suggested earlier, the matter was dropped. The more JH is discussed the ever higher becomes her profile and the appearance of her influence. Remember there is no such thing as bad publicity.

The more JH is discussed the ever higher becomes her profile and the appearance of her influence. Remember there is no such thing as bad publicity.

i still think she should resign

There is no hope Norman of us little people beginning to put right the harm done my that program.  It's brainwashed too many people who don't know any different. 

We know what's happening in our own breed.  We've all got good and not so good breeders - that's the way of the world and human nature.

We can just go on doing what we believe is right in our little part of the world as we've always done.  Good homes will always find good breeders. :)  Those who make no effort won't. :)

The more JH is discussed the ever higher becomes her profile and the appearance of her influence. Remember there is no such thing as bad publicity.

Ohh I'm not sure about that after her last Our Dogs publicity!  I bet she's not St J amongst her journalistic colleagues and the TV world at the moment! :)

i still think she should resign
From what?  Writing in a monthly dog magazine ........... :)