Hi all,

Help me out please??

Im doing an assignment for college and have to compare BARF to my branded food, could all you BARF peeps tell me what reasons it is better/worse, why bones should be fed aswell as meat, why it shouldnt be cooked and is it easy/poor to digest....All this kinda info. please. Much appreiciated (sp??)

Thanks

If you search on the web you will find loads of info if you type BARF or Raw feeding into the engine.

ive only been feeding my dog the barf diet for about a month now.  But here are some useful websites :

http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm

http://www.ukbarfclub.co.uk/

http://www.barfworld.com

Bones should never be cooked because they splinter.
And i dont know why bones should be fed as well as meat, but my dog wont chew bones properly so doesnt get many.

I hear alot of vets are against barf diet?  my step mum was sayin that her vet friend says its bad for dogs :|  but indie looks much better... her fur is softer, theres less waste and shes not so hyper.

Hi Jenny

You sound the type of raw feeder that gets us a bad name :D

If you have done any research you will know why bones (raw meaty, rather than large chewable) are so very important

My vet is very supportive of raw feeding, so much so that he is more than happy for me to create a raw liquid diet of high quality protiens for my male who had major surgery (which he was lucky to survive) last Friday.  He could try to insist that he is fed the canned food they provide for post operative dogs but we only did this for 12 hours as I did not have available the items I needed and Sundays are not the best time to be able to get hold of them.

Hi Christine,

Jenny sounds like a young person to me and not the primary "BARF feeder" in her home.  Read her post again.

Stacey

Apologies to Jenny if you are a youngster and not the primary feeder who will of course have done all the research :D

Hi Zoe, you are at college - is it Ag. college?  Are you doing an animal care/science course?  Are you near a zoo that keeps wolves?  The idea behind BARF (or biologically appropriate raw food) is to feed canines the way nature intended, in natural conditions ie:RAW!  There are many benefits to raw feeding (cooking isn't natural for a dog :D and alters molecular structure) - However it is a very in-depth subject - one which you will probably spend many hours researching if you are to produce a good project showing comparisons between food types.  Good Luck!  Just type BARF into the search option, there are also many web sites detailing BARF - For and Against!!!
Sarah :)

Rozzer, What Agricultural College did you go to ? (assuming you did, but im sure I read somewhere that you did )

Hi BB, I was a Cannington student based at Bristol Zoo - Did three years there but got my foot in the door at the zoo so when my course ended I was taken on as a keeper, which led to entomology for a further 3 years which led to forensic science (strangely)   Which I totally lurve :D
Sarah

hi there, i am the primary feeder of my dog, and have tried to find as much info as i can about raw feeding, looking on many websites and also speakin to others that have done it.  I have found that everyone does it differently, which makes things confusing about what should and should not be fed.
Any information you can provide will be much appreciated as i have looked at the main BARF websites.

my dog wont eat bones by the way, she will attempt to chew it and spit it out :|  any advice would be much appreciated

Hi Jenny - When I first started feeding this way, I had the same concerns (and confusions) as you!  My advice is - Do not become a slave to the diet.  Think about a two week period and try to balance the food types over that period rather than in one meal.  The aim is to provide all the food types that would be consumed if the dog were feeding from his own kill - So, when a wolf kills an animal, he eats the lot - Raw meaty bones (wings, for instance) contain lots of calcium and yummy nutrients in the marrow, then we have offal - kidneys, liver, lung - then the muscle meat - heart, steak etc  And of course stomach or intestinal contents, which is why many barfers feed broken down veggies.  So your aim is to mimic a kill - Natures complete meal :)  Now there will be variations and you will no doubt tweak the regime to suit you and your dog.  Personally I feed RMB's as a morning meal, usually chick wings or rabbit or duck legs.  Then, for evening meal its either offal, muscle meat throw in the odd egg here and there, a bit of cottage cheese (probiotic) a clove of garlic - whatever is going really!  My hound looks fab, she loves her diet and I wouldn't feed any other way.  Billinghurst himself recommends alot more veg than I currently feed, but I'm not too concerned about this - Many people refer strongly to dog's as omnivores.  True they consume/scavage plant/veggie/fruit matter but to me a chimp is an omnivore not a dog ;)
Hope this helps - I know a good web site, I'll post the address when I remember it :D
Sarah

A dog's choice of food is governed in this order:   Smell, texture, taste.

If a dog is not used to the texture of raw food they may be reluctant to eat it, this includes bones.   The best way round this is to get the dog used to the texture of the food and bones gradually.    Sometimes cooking the meat a little helps and the following is a way to SAFELY cook bones to get the dog accustomed to eating them.

Buy a frozen chicken and pressure cook it for two hours appoximately on high pressure.  The bones change texture and do not splinter.  Check they are soft by seeing if they crush okay in your fingers.  Once the dog is used to cooked and softened bones and also gets used to rawer and rawer [sp?] meat [I mean less cooked] it will often be happy to change to a diet that includes raw meat and bones.

Wendy

Remembered that site :)   www.belamba.co.uk - sorry, cant do links :rolleyes: - Another thing you could try with the RMB's is to crush them with a clever or hammer and chop them into smaller bits.
Sarah

thanks for the information.

im gonna sound really stupid now, but what do u consider a pressure cooker?  we have a normal electric cooker at home. how do i go about cookin the bones enough not to splinter?

A pressure cooker is like a saucepan with a lid that seals entirely, allowing steam to escape but no air can get in. See here for explanation.

Jenny,

"Bones should never be cooked because they splinter.
And i dont know why bones should be fed as well as meat, but my dog wont chew bones properly so doesnt get many."

I thought you were young because of the reference to your step mum and because you are feeding BARF and do know why bones should be fed as well as meat.  That does not suggest someone who has done a lot of research. There are several books on the subject and they would be a better start than just search in the Web.  I do not feed BARF, so I will let those who do suggest which books are best.

By the way, egg shells are a very good source of calcium.  You can save them and grind them or smash them up if you wish and add them to your dog's meal.    Or, you can always give your dog the entire egg, shell and all.

Stacey

sorry when was cottage cheese a probiotic?
Dogs do not eat stomach contents; but SOME may eat part of the intestinal contents.

Well I use probiotic yoghurt and bio cottage cheese :rolleyes:  So when my friends lurcher killed and scoffed his own rabbit he spat out the stomach contents - not that I remember???  I sooooo cant be bothered to go into a stomach content/veggie/intestinal content blah blah blah debate.  Depends who your references are I guess Tohme, but I wont lose sleep over it!

I guess Jenny this adds to the confusion ;)  Some references will say that wild canids go straight for the soft stomach (hence many doggy's love of tripe) while others say canines dont touch the stomach?  Like I said, my dog wont eat much in the way of veggies but others feed quite a large % - You just have to make up your own mind I guess
Sarah :)

GREAT! thank you everyone, just finished my assignment, Rozzer that website was fantastic thanks everyone

<Some references will say that wild canids go straight for the soft stomach (hence many doggy's love of tripe) while others say canines dont touch the stomach?>

Wild dogs do go for the stomach (in other words the tripe) but leave the contents of the stomach to roll in.

This has been well documented in many places, one good book I remember is 'Raw Meaty Bones' by Tom Lonsdale.

Snomaes

Your right!  However if you read 'The Barf Diet' by Billinghurst it is emphasised how much wild dog's enjoy eating stomach contents, where it then emphasisis the need, by dog's, for fermenting plant matter - I think it would be naive to say wild canids (which of course include wolves, wild dog's, foxes, coyotes, dingoes....) WOULDN'T touch stomach contents.  I also have friends who get a bit of extra partially digested grass with their tripe that their dogs lurve :)  Basically the diet is a very elaborate one for our pets - and I believe the best, different people have different views on how much of a particular food type a dog should be fed and why.  Dog's will eat out of bins, compost heaps, munch their own bum's, eat faeces and other socially unacceptible items   Personally, I wouldn't rule out stomach contents from the wild diet ;)
Sarah

<Your right!  However if you read 'The Barf Diet' by Billinghurst it is emphasised how much wild dog's enjoy eating stomach contents>

Ian Billinghurst's books were the first books that I read on raw feeding over 6 years ago. I am well aware of the contents of his books but disagree on the issue of dogs devouring the stomach contents. The stomach contents are very acidic and are not attractive to dogs.

I have read many other books and articles since which completely disagree with Billinghurst and I tend to agree that dogs do not regularly eat the contents of the stomach and they are certainly not the first part that they choose.

You disagree with his comments on this subject - exactly one of my origonal points - that anyone researching this feeding technique will run into differing views/opinions/facts/experiences etc etc.  Billinghurst (as well as my own experiences) is who I refer to when I say earlier that 'dog's enjoy eating stomach contents' - something you must have read yourself at some point being well aware of his work - Lonsdale is who you refer to when you say they dont.  No doubt we have provided Zoe (origonal post) with enough food for thought and an example of conflicting ideas with regard to this feeding style?
Sarah

I have a 3 greyhounds and have recently started feed raw natural. One of my greys only has 3 teeth (canines) so can't chomp on bones. Obviously it is essential that he gets his bone for calcium so I blitz it in an electric spice mill. I can only fit a split in half chicken quarter (leg/thigh) or chopped down ribs in, but that works well. You could try doing that. If you can get him used to eating raw bones over a period of time, it would be more beneficial because it keeps their teeth clean. My dogs haven't been eating them for long but their teeth are squeaky clean. Good luck with whatever you try (but they must get their calcium) - Oh another way to get calcium into them is to feed egg shells, again if they won't eat it raw - clean and dry them and place on a baking tray on a very low heat just to dry them out, then crush them into a powder. I do this for my toothless dog too.  Good luck

My girl grey is very fussy when it comes to raw offal and 9 times out of ten won't eat it. Any tips on how to get her to eat it? She has no problems with any other raw meat including chicken portions. I think it's just the texture.

One of my dogs was the same to start with. I used to either mince the offal up and add it to other meat or give it a few seconds in the microwave to just cook the outer surface. Over a period of time I reduced the length of time it was in the microwave for and now he eats it raw without a problem.

Microwave it slightly to warm it a bit, I have heard - or if you haven't a micro, briefly sear it on both sides in a hot pan.

I blended some kidneys the other day for the dogs with catrostophic results (blood sprayed everywhere - its a handheld blender ) 

If I put the kidneys in the microwave would I need to pierce them first ?

> If I put the kidneys in the microwave would I need to pierce them first ?

Eek! no idea... and LOL at the blender... :)

One of my greys only has 3 teeth (canines) so can't chomp on bones. Obviously it is essential that he gets his bone for calcium so I blitz it in an electric spice mill

When I changed my dogs over from commercial food I too was concerned about feeding bones so I bought Wafcol Sterilised Feeding Bonemeal to add to their diet.  You just add some to their meal and they get their calcium without having to worry about splintering bones.

One of my greys only has 3 teeth (canines) so can't chomp on bones. Obviously it is essential that he gets his bone for calcium so I blitz it in an electric spice mill

When I changed my dogs over from commercial food I too was concerned about feeding bones so I bought Wafcol Sterilised Feeding Bonemeal to add to their diet.  You just add some to their meal and they get their calcium without having to worry about splintering bones.

Also found  as Mis Temeraire said that if the meat is just warmed a bit it becomes more palatable as this resembles a fresh kill.

maybe I will ....... just in case !!

> You just add some to their meal (Bone meal)

Suzieque. This may be a stupid question, but will it firm up output as if they are eating bones?

> If I put the kidneys in the microwave would I need to pierce them first ?

ClaireyS. I'm not known for my cooking skills, but yes I think you would need to pierce them as they have a skin otherwise they might explode!

> ClaireyS. I'm not known for my cooking skills, but yes I think you would need to pierce them as they have a skin otherwise they might explode!

It's all getting a bit bloodthirsty isn't it....
Don't use a hand blender, or you will re-create a scene from Zombie Monster Killers Playing in Comet Store.
Stab kidneys a la Psycho shower scene, before microwaving, to avoid unnecessary explosions.

If only the darn dogs were as enthusiastic as they are supposed to be, about raw food! :)

My doglet - and my cat also, I have to say - are not squeamish, so I can only sympathise.

>ClaireyS. I'm not known for my cooking skills, but yes I think you would need to pierce them as they have a skin otherwise they might explode!

after my episode with the blender thats what I was worried about lol !!

If you leave the liver in too long that explodes as well :-)

Someone further up the page suggested adding bone meal to meat - I was told not to do that as it can end up like a slurry in the intestines and cause problems. I have no idea if that is correct but have avoided it anyway. I feed whole eggs with the shell on once or twice a week and the minced dog meats I buy have bone in them as well.

Hi there, a few seconds in the microwave for the offal worked a treat, thanks. One of my dogs is obviously not chewing all of his bone properly 'cause a couple of times he's been sick and brought a few peices of larger bone back up (just bile and bone, no blood, no blood in stool) has anyone else had this? - I wonder if it's because other dogs are a competition. ~Also I have read on a few BARF sights that it is good for them to fast for a day now and again. Does anyone else do this. It makes sense, just wondered what anyone else thought. Thanks

Suzieque. This may be a stupid question, but will it firm up output as if they are eating bones?

I never really allowed mine to eat bones other than the occasional marrow bone as a treat so can't really compare.

I certainly found that not feeding commercial, complete food produced less waste (output) and what there is, is more on the 'dry' side.

Dogs don't chew their food - they break it into chunks they can swallow and down it goes. It's not uncommon for it to sometimes come back up again :-)

I don't fast my dogs at all and never have. I figure that if I am feeding the right amount each day to maintain good condition then that is what they need each day. I only cut their food down a little if they are not doing their usual amount of exercise (one of mine does agility and shows tail off a bit in the winter) or if they need to lose a little weight - although mine tend to stay a fairly constant weight on the food they have.

Thanks for that. Being new to this I'm still very nervous about the bones. The bonemeal for my toothless guy came yesterday (he enjoyed it, which was good, and my spice mill can have a rest :)  )
Yeah I think the fasting is more about a kind of detox, helping the digestive system to reset it'self. Some sites recommend it whilst other don't mention it so wondered if anyone had found it beneficial. I would feel really mean doing it, but if it had a good health benefit I would do it. I'll have a bit more of a think on this one.

Slowie34

My preference for dogs unable to 'chew' would be bone-in mince rather than bone meal (much easier not to over do the bone that way).  Chicken mince from my supplier is actually minced carcass so very high in bone and I balance it with other minces or meats.  Eggshell is another excellent source of calcium - I ought to be able to lay my hands on the ratios if you'd like them (1 eggshell or 1 teaspoon of ground eggshell to ??? of meat) - I know I have that written down somewhere! :)

I don't schedule fasting days for the dogs, my lot like the ritual of meal times too much to give it miss completely, but I do alter amounts to accommodate their need for less some days.  One of my older dogs has always been great at self regulating so I just 'listen' to him.

The only other thing I do to aid digestion is to watch the food combinations:  if they had a v large raw meaty bone for breakfast (turkey drumstick for instance) I wouldn't feed kibble later the same day.  I don't know if there is any science behind it but some combinations are more likely to give mine gas, tummy gurgles, the runs, or other noticable issues.  When they eat kibble (once a week) I like to know it can pass through quite easily without getting stuck behind something else!  I prefer to follow bone with liver to aid it on it's way...

My dogs are doing really well on the diet - Magic will eat the offal if it is put the mircrowave for a few seconds. She has gone finiky with whole fish all of a sudden (tried taking it away till next meal and the next but plain refuses - she will eat it filleted tut tut). Even our guy with three teeth strips the meat off bones and gnaws away at some of the bone then I mince the rest. I have noticed that sometimes the stools are black (not always). Is this from eating raw liver? They are all fine in themselves, not being sick, lively (well as lively as greyhounds get anyway lol). Have any of you experienced black stools and is it normal for dogs who eat liver and offal?

In my experience, liver does tend to turn their stools black, and it makes my dogs loose when fed raw, so I cook it.  They get it chopped up, and cooked, and mixed in with their tripe once or twice a week.  The vitamin A content is quite high with liver, so I don't like to give too much of it. 

I've got a couple who are a bit finicky with some of the whole fish.....but both of them will eat fresh sprats if I use them as a training treat in the garden. Yes raw liver does make the poo go black and can be a little softer but is back to normal after the next meal.

I give raw liver once a week but also give them a Raw Meaty Bone on that day too. Amazing isn't it....that your guy with three teeth can still strip the meat off and gnaw away at the bone...? :) Its like they just instinctively know whats good for them....bless him :)