Hello, This is my first time post to this forum .........please help me ! I purchased a Bullmastiff puppy in December from a breeder that advertised the litter on this website and also Pets4homes.....The advert stated, 5 year pedigree, KC Registration Paperwork, 1st Vaccinations, Fully Wormed, Microchipped and Puppy pack at time of collection.  We are first time puppy owners and did lots of research prior to deciding to make this step ! After numerous calls and emails regards to the collection date at 6 weeks old we were told this was fine as he was fully weaned and eating and drinking on his own, even though we read the minimum is 8 weeks we questioned this many times but was assurred this was OK....this was our first mistake to listen to the breeder even though we thought we could trust him. Out of the 6 things advertised the only 2 that where adhered to were microchipped and puppy pack. We have since had to pay for vaccinations and worming. We have had the little guy 8 weeks on Saturday and still no paperwork. We have chased and chased via calls, emails and texts and had no paperwork. We managed to get a text reply saying they had been delayed by the bad weather in the post and then managed to speak to the breeders mother who says she would chase it........still nothing. We also noticed that on the microchip paperwork the birth date was different to that we were told and when questioned the text reply stated that "pups should not have be re homed before 8 weeks thats why the date is wrong " so basically admitting he changed the paperwork.....I have contacted Trading Standards and they have confirmed we have a case and to write a recorded letter stating all of this to the breeder giving him 14 days to reply........we can see he received this on Tuesday last week ......surprisingly nothing !!! Do any of you have any suggestions on what I can do now ?  PLEASE !!! This is principle more than anything, the little guy is brilliant and we are having such a good time but I still feel cheated that I have paid alot of money for a pedigree puppy that I can't prove should I need to ..........thanks in  advance.

Perhaps Admin will PM you and get details of breeder/litter and advise you.

Hope they're not KCAB's!

I do hope you manage to get paperwork sorted out shortly, it must be such a worrying time for you.

A friend of mine bought her first cavalier in november and has only just recieved the paper work on monday.

There really are major backlogs at the moment as she had a copy of the application which was made to the KC back in october.

You can also contact the KC directly and ask if a litter registration has been made in your breeders name, they should be able to tell you if the application is pending.

Also pups are never 'fully wormed' they are usually 'fully wormed to date' but of course you will have to carry on their course of worming treatment once the pup was at home, and for the rest of their lives.

In addition pups are rarely vaccinated before 6 weeks as their mothers antibodes are still present in their blood and would attack the live vaccination making it redundant. This is why the first vaccination is usually administered at 8 weeks. I would guess as your pup came home at 6 weeks, this is why the pup wasnt vaccinated. It is worth noting that if your pup had come home at 6 weeks and had already had its 1st vaccination then the likelyhood is that when you took it to the vet for its 2nd vacc the vet would have told you that you had to start and pay for the whole course again as the first vacc was useless anyway.

I hope that your case is the same as my friends.

Good Luck.

Id also find out if they are members of any of the Bullmastiff breed clubs such as the Southern Bullmastiff Society, British Bullmastiff League or the welsh and west and put in a complaint to them as well as all members have to adhere to a certain standard

Funny my friend registered her litter just over a week ago and has the paperwork though said she'd sent mine a few days ago and it still hasn't been rec'd as yet.

If the person advertised on champdogs then do inform admin.

i would never pick up a puppy without paper work on the day of collection! i registered my litter at 2 weeks old and had the papers back a week later!

I have sent you a message.
Jeff.

Thank you for your reply...........admin have infact contacted me too !

I want to say Thank You for all your replies..........I also would like to add a little more information. I have already contacted KC and they tell me that no litters have been registered on the birth date I was given , which again makes me nervous. The Microchip company have not had any paperwork when I chased them ( I only have the green copy ) and the breeder put the details as him not me.......again he assured me he would be contacting them to get the details changed over ! Therefore as a result of this I also missed out on the 1 month free insurance I should of had. The vet has confirmed he is microchipped so at least that's one thing.I will just have to play the waiting game for 2 weeks then take it from there. The excellent news today was that when my hubby was with him in the park the president of the local Bullmastiff Society came over to look at Boscoe and passed comment how he was an excellent example of the breed and had we any thoughts on showing him.........I feel a really proud mummy !!!

Please, please continue with your claim against the breeder by taking your case to the Small Claims Court, you do not need a solicitor it is not expensive and you do have a case against the breeder. Take Trading Standards advice. There is much info on the Consumer Direct web site to assist you in making a claim.  You have already taken the first step - hope you sent the letter by recorded delivery or registered post as you must ensure it was signed for to prove receipt of the letter.   

> i registered my litter at 2 weeks old and had the papers back a week later!

Totally agree - the KC do not take months to get the paperwork back to you.  I've had delays, yes (last year when they were up to their ears with Cruft's work), but no way would they take 3 months, that's baloney.

I would say Trading Standards is the first port of call,a dn of course fill in the Accredited Breeder Feedback form, and if you didn't get one contact the Kennel Club and let them know.

I didn't get my paperwork when i picked up my pup as the 1st choice of names were not allowed so after sending some more names off they were allowed it did take couple of weeks but it wasn't months.
good luck

nessa

"pups should not have be re homed before 8 weeks thats why the date is wrong " so basically admitting he changed the paperwork.....

Dodgy, dodgy, dodgy, they insisted you took the pup at 6 weeks then changed the paperwork because they knew it was wrong. :-D :-D

Sorry, it really isn't a laughing matter is it, I wish you had walked away, you knew it was wrong. Well, even if you have been told your pup has show potential, looks like you'll never have a KC dog, so you'll have to forget that one. No responsible breeder gives Bullmastiff pups out at 6 weeks, you should have reported them immediately and then ran.

My KC paperwork takes 3-7 days to get to me, I think you know you have been hoodwinked, what a shame, just love your pup and let trading standards take care of them, along with the KC.

Well let's hope your pessimism is misplaced and we can continue to help the OP.
Jeff.

I recently registered my litter on-line and was told to expect delays due to the adverse weather conditions but I recieved my papers within 10 days. 
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.  I would contact the site where you seen the original advert and get them to send you a copy for your records if you are thinking of small claims court.  If it were me, I would take this as lesson learned and move on with your lovely puppy.  If you are not going to show or breed, KC papers are pretty pointless anyway.  I realise that you paid for a registered dog but I don't see this ending well with no stress.

> If you are not going to show or breed, KC papers are pretty pointless anyway.  I realise that you paid for a registered dog but I don't see this ending well with no stress.

and this is how bad practise is allowed to continue.

to the Original Poster.

do not lest this drop, report them to the Kennel club for breaking Accredited Breeder rules, and to Trading Standards for false advertising.

It's this kind of thing that brings 'all breeders' and the Kennel club systems into disrepute.

And KC papers are not pointless, they should be the buyers guarantee of what they are buying in terms of ancestry and what goes with it, (generations of care and commitment to a breed) the health status and traits of the dogs.

If this is unimportant to a person they can take pot luck with a rescue pup with no history.

Well let's hope your pessimism is misplaced and we can continue to help the OP.

I'm sorry that you feel my view is pessimistic, it's my opinion on the facts given.

A pup is sold at 6 weeks, with a promise of KC papers, no first vaccination as promised and faulse dates on the microchip. Now 8 weeks later no KC papers still?

None of these things speak responsible or reliable breeder to me, it's not the way myself and others breed and there are plenty of charlatans out there.

Unless there has been a tragedy, a death or illness for example where the breeder was unable to finish rearing the litter so had to let it go early and this has also affected sending off paperwork, then there is a legitimate excuse, (faulsifying DOB not being one) sometimes things can happen outside a breeders control, but there is no mention of any such thing.

Unless new information has come to light, then how can any of it look optimistic?

I too hope that the OP has a happy ending, but you can't blame any of us for not believing so from the information given. :-)

My litter application on-line was made on 21st January and were registered on the 27th (yet to receive in post).

Wasn't blaming anyone. To have differing opinions is not a crime hence the use of the word "hope"
Jeff.

Sorry, I didn't mean pointless.  I mean what would a pet dog owner do with regisration papers?  I just can't see thepoint of going through all this stress for something that is not necessary for a pet owner who probably won't understand a pedigree and the dogs assossiated with it.  Most 'pet' owners fall for the fantastic pedigree with loads of champions schpele all the time without checking the background.
I can't see these people being a part of any governing body never mind the KCAB scheme.  Most likely one or both of their dogs are not registered either.  As for taking a pup at 6 weeks?  Their is enough info out there now to know that this is not a good breeder to be purchasing a puppy from.  Even non-doggy people know this now.  Not getting at OP just stating that they obviously knew this was not a great breeder when they got into the situation.

We didn't let anybody in to view our litter of Bullies until about 8 weeks then didn't let them leave till about 10 weeks as we were running on a few pups because we wanted to keep a boy back for ourselves to show. I applied for all the paper work for my parents (they are allergic to all computers LOL), once I registered them I printed off a copy from the KC Website as I did it online to prove that they were registered with the actual paperwork taking about 2/3 weeks to come through.

As a rule of thumb we do all vaccinations before the pups leave the house that's another reason why we hold pups a little longer, I know many people don't but we prefer to as some vets do not carry the same vacc's so pups sometimes have to start the courses again.

One another note the export papers I did took aaaages to come through I had to ring the KC constantly to see if it had been done.

The thing is if they do nothing then the breeder gets away with sharp practise and worse still the poster will be of the opinion that the KCAB scheme is a rip off, which I am sure they would tell all their friends,a dn the whole thing will be undermined, where the pups breeders may or may not be involved, or that all breeders behave like this.

Trading Standards involvement would also hopefully stop others being cheated this way.

Cracar from of a litter of 10 id say you would be lucky if you got 1 or 2 potential show dogs so the other 90% would go to pet homes anyway even from top breeders most of the puppies are family pets. OK paperwork isnt the be all and end all but if you expected to get paperwork you should do it gives you something to be proud especially if you had been waiting and looking a long time for your puppy.

If the litter was advertised on this site both parents have to be KC'd as you have to enter their KC numbers in to register any litters

>I mean what would a pet dog owner do with regisration papers?  I just can't see thepoint of going through all this stress for something that is not necessary for a pet owner who probably won't understand a pedigree and the dogs assossiated with it.  Most 'pet' owners fall for the fantastic pedigree with loads of champions schpele all the time without checking the background.

Cracar, this is rather a sweeping statement. 

The OP probably realises she's now made a mistake but good on her for knowing that she should be looking for a pup from KC registered parents - at least some of the messages are getting through.  We've got to find ways to make it much easier for puppy buyers to find the best breeders and ways to make it much more difficult and uncomfortable for dodgy breeders to continue to defraud the public.  This breeder must be reported to everyone who can do something about it or is prepared to listen

Hello again everyone.........I wanted to write to again say thank you for your comments and advice. I have had a result  ! I was contacted by a few of you offering advise on the breeder and the contact details of the Sire so I called the owner of the Sire last night and I have to comment she was furious at what had happened and was more than helpful.......she confirmed that her dog was the father of the litter and that she too had had trouble with the breeder, ironcially she commented that the breeder told her of a letter he had received which basically made him aware we would take this further and he needed to sort out paperwork. The owner had already given consent and signed paperwork required weeks ago but the breeder had done nothing since the litter had been born. She confirmed that the KC registration had been done online last Friday so to expect paperwork soon. She gave me her full details and home number and asked me to contact her to confirm I had got everything when the paperwork does arrive.......she could not have been more vocal at how annoyed she was and that its incidences like this that give breeders a bad reputation. She also confirmed she would never deal with this breeder again. I am hoping this is now an end to it......its interesting though that even though I have been told he applied online so he has started the process that he has still not contacted me to tell me the latest info........he must be trying to appear he was not threatened by our letter. I will still be contacting the KC when I have all the paperwork to hand to make them fully aware of this situation as I fell this man should not be allowed to call himself a breeder again. I am quite tenacious about things like this and felt I was not going to be cheated.........thanks again to you all.

> I mean what would a pet dog owner do with regisration papers

Golly - so all the advice on here to 'pet' owners to buy from a reputable breeder etc etc and from a KC registered litter is rubbish ??

As a pet owner (after getting a rescue dog, I made sure that my next dog, a pedigree puppy was KC registered etc) what would you recommend I do next time, please ?????

Daisy

Hi Daisy, I have to be honest I think it was just bad luck for us.......we did research on the dam and sire to ensure they were KC registered etc .......I think the fact the breeder was a first timer apparently ( his mother not !) and he was a young lad saw money at Christmas time and was not aware of the consequences when taking such a "whatever" attitude.........when all said and done here the priority is the little puppy's who are excellent and coming on well........not sure what if anything I could do different next time !

Kimbo, I'm so glad you seem to have the stud owner on side and am so glad you are getting somewhere and at least know the parentage of your pup.  Well done, you.
For everyone else, If you read my first post on this topic, I did say that I have recently registered my litter.  I have and always will register my pups with the KC regardless of whether they go to show homes or not.  I also, for those of you interested, only breed from my dogs after they have all the required health checks for their breed.  I don't for a second think it was OK what the 'breeder' had done but I just couldn't see the point of pursuing this through the courts?  This obviously wasn't an accredited breeder or answering to any governing body.  I am not for a second saying that it's OK not to register this puppy but I don't see the point of going through all the stress of small claims court. 
Without attack, can you tell me why it is necessary if the dog is for a pet only?
I understand that the OP had taken this pup thinking that he was registered and obviously the knowledge of parentage is advantageous but apart from those reasons?

Hi Kimbo - I was replying to Cracar's post :) :) :)

There are a lot of people who do not buy a puppy every day, so would not know whether having to wait for the KC paperwork was normal or not :) There are also some breeders on here that are slow with the paperwork because they can't decide on the puppies names etc and have to send on the registration documents after the puppies have gone to their homes :) :) :) Totally different thing tho' to Cracar querying whether a 'pet' owner needs/would know what to do with the paperwork :) :) :)

I'm glad that it all appears to be sorting itself out for you :)

Daisy

> Without attack, can you tell me why it is necessary if the dog is for a pet only

My puppy was a mismark, so definitely not for breeding or showing, but she was from good parents who were health checked etc so I wanted the KC registration as 'proof' of this. Any breeder can draw up a pedigree to show to buyers, but a KC registration is proof of the breeders 'claims' :) :) :) 'Pet' owners usually pay the same price as those who wish to show so why can't they be treated the same ???

Daisy

> Any breeder can draw up a pedigree to show to buyers, but a KC registration is proof of the breeders 'claims' :-) :-) :-) 'Pet' owners usually pay the same price as those who wish to show so why can't they be treated the same ???
>

Completely agree Daisy. I have had many pet dogs and wanted the KC paperwork for them all. It was the proof that I was getting what the breeder said I was - a KC registered pedigree dog. My in-laws bought a WHWT a few years ago, promised papers later, they never arrived, the poor dog had multiple health issues. They never took it further so how many others were duped by the same puppy farmer? (he was a puppy farmer, multiple breeds, multiple puppies, no sign of mum's)

Kimbo - I hope your papers arrive soon - great that at least the sire's owner seems responsible!

Good news in the end! :-)

Jeff.

>can you tell me why it is necessary if the dog is for a pet only?

Cracar, KC Registration, and the fees that are payable, are of benefit to the KC (and dog owners) which you can read about here. Information on the Kennel Club Charitable Trust makes good reading too

The breed register can be a vital research tool if the 'pet' owner wishes another similar dog in future, or wishes to ask questions about inherited conditions.  It's reassuring to a new owner that they have got what they wanted, ie a pedigree dog with known parentage, and they can check health test results of all dogs in that pedigree.  Registration documents can be useful to prove ownership if couples split or a dog needs to be rehomed.  The 'pet' owner might also decide they want to try showing in future.  They could also use the pedigree to contact breeders further up the line to see if it's possible to see a photograph of their dogs grandparent.  The family tree of a dog can be fascinating :)

With regards to whether it's worth an owner pursuing documents through legal means that is for them to decide BUT dodgy breeders/dealers must not be allowed to get away with conning unsuspecting owners.  Even if only for the principle rather than the actual paperwork then in my opinion owners should take any and all action open to them in pursuing con merchants.  It's also worth mentioning that a breeder who is unreliable about paperwork may well be failing their pups and owners on many other levels - just as we've seen with the OP - homing too early and faking DOB may just be the tip of the iceberg...

Brilliant news Kimbo, :-)

Jeff you were so right to be optimistic, I would never have thought it would end up like this, well done to all who helped with the Sires owners contact details. Do you live close to this breeder Kimbo? If you do might be best to personally collect the transfer of ownership and the KC free insurance (make sure you get that too) as he may take weeks to post them out, not been quick off the mark so far. If not keep on his back, as he is a new breeder make sure he signs the transfer form too.

Best of luck, must be a weight off your mind. :-)

Im pleased I could help you find out more information and that the stud dog owner was so helpful.  Just to reiterate the above post, when you get the KC paperwork (or collect it if you can) please ensure that he signs it on the back as without that you cannot transfer the pup into your name.  Thats really important.

Hi Carrington,

Sooner or later got to get one right! :-)

Jeff.

:-D :-D :-D good to have faith, mine seems to have dwindled. I'll try harder. :-)

Hi, The plot thickens for me............I called KC today and they do confirm they have a litter registered to the dam and sire I named had been done on Friday ..Yeah I thought then when I asked about the DOB that I was given they told me thats not the date registered !!!! She could not tell me what date had been registered as I was not yet the legal owner until the breeder signs the paperwork and posts it..........I have read your comments about collecting them but we live  a good 2.1/2 hours away from the breeder and I have no certainty that he would be in if I was to turn up.........and after his behaivour I don't think he would be in if I tried to arrange it........having said that he would have to reply to calls and texts which he is not doing anyway.Keep you all posted

Perhaps your pup is even younger than 6 wks... :(

> Perhaps your pup is even younger than 6 wks

Surely the sire's owner would know approximately ??

Daisy

> Surely the sire's owner would know approximately ??

When you do get the paperwork back, if the dates still don't tally then get onto the sire's owner straight away. Either the breeder has given a fraudulent date to the KC, or the sire of your dog is a different one!

well the stud owner can confirm the date of mating so the puppies date of birth cannot be more than a week maximum more or less than 63 days of the mating dates.

If the breeder had more than one breeding bitch, maybe your puppy is from another bitch and not the one on the paperwork and that is what is causing the confusion maybe the other litter is KC reg and your puppy as it is mis -marked is not.

If the breeder did not have the KC reg papers when the puppy was advertised for sale then he should have written in the advertisement that KC registration papers applied for. I think there is something not right here there have been too many mistakes and errors made on what was advertised and what you actually received.

Still think if you do not receive the KC papers that you should go through the Small Claims Court, there is no excuse for a breeder to be so lax.  Have you checked is this breeder an accredited breeder, if so it flies in the face of what is expected of an accredited breeder. 

   

I have spoken to the owner of the sire and she also confirms the date that I was originally told and the date as per the advert is correct .......I just wonder now why (if) he has registered a different birth date to what we all think ?

I suppose all I can do at this stage is wait for the paperwork to arrive........I just get more suspisious as the days go by.

I expect he didn't listen to mummy how much hard work a litter was so got rid early.  Lying on the dates to cover his backside or sheer lazyness.  Souds like he comes from a breeding background (you said mum was a breeder) and just saw pound signs.  Would it be worth talking to his mum or did she look like she couldn't care.

Good job the sire owner is decent and helpful and it wasn't a two way setup.

Here is the list of Kennel club accredited breeders for bull-mastiffs: http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/acbr/Default.aspx?breed=Bullmastiff breeders may ask not to be on this list, but I couldn't see someone  breeding their first litter having joined blocking their details.

If this breeder is not on this list then they are likely to be lying about their status with the KC (so report them after checking that they are not) or if they are even worse report them for breaching the terms.

Hello all, thought I would update you all..........another 14 days has passed and still no paperwork !! No contact, no calls, no texts from the breeder. I have spoken to trading standards today who confirm that I can now take this further as he has not responded. Again I have spoken to the owner of the Sire who confirms she has had her paperwork last Monday following an online registration of the litter which was done on Friday 28th January( the day after my legal letter arrived !) ....so all that needed to be done is for the breeder to sign the paperwork and post to me....here we are nearly 14 days later ! I know that some of you don't understand why I am going to such lengths for paperwork but now its a matter of principle ....you would not buy an expensive car with out the log book or a house without deeds.......to me this is the same. I suppose the bit that really infuriates me is that he has not even acknowledged my letter.....I am convinced he will say that he has posted the paperwork but not used recorded........time will tell.

>I know that some of you don't understand why I am going to such lengths for paperwork but now its a matter of principle ....

You're absolutely right to chase it up all the way; con-artists (this person might not be one, but doesn't seem completely straightforward!) rely on people not bothering. Every time they get away with it they're more likely to repeat it; and they need stopping.

I await the next move with interest!