Hi.  I have a small breed bitch that is 17 months old.  I have been lightly showing her in Europe with the odd show in the UK over the past year.  She has done ok, I doubt she will ever make champion but has had placings (including one 1st in her class) and her European critiques have all been graded Very Good. However, when I was looking for her as a puppy I was a very naive puppy buyer that didn't realise how good some breeders are.  Her breeder raised her well, she is happy, healthy, outgoing etc but her breeder has had no interest in her since I got her.  I would like to become a breeder but I want to do it properly, I want to do it responsibly.  I have researched the necessary health tests and sometime this year my girl will have the test she needs.  If she is Affected she will never be bred from and I will chalk this up to experience and remember what I have learnt for the future.  I have tried talking to her breeder but she is not interested.  I do have friends in the breed but none are experienced breeders that can be a mentor to me (there is one that has bred about three liters and although willing to help and advise is not in a position to be a mentor).  I have started to research her pedigree to find out health test results, lifespan and also colour as that is a consideration within my breed (mixing colours often leads to poor examples of either colour and is not allowed in Europe). As for health test results, I know her pedigree, on both sides is unaffected for at least three generations but then it diverts into European and American dogs so I have found obtaining these results to be much harder, plus in some countries the health issue is not recognised and breeders don't screen for it.

I was wondering how you go about researching pedigree's and the ancestors of your dogs.  How do you find those dogs affected by hereditary illness, particularly when it is such a taboo subject in the breed to admit to?  How do you find out that the dog in generation 5 was a bad mover despite the pictures of him and you cannot see him because he is either retired from the ring or on the other side of the continent?  Where do you look for information?  What else do you want to know?  How could I find a mentor?

I can only say how I went about it.

Firstly I contacted the owner of the sire of my bitch, introducing myself, letting her know I was interested in researching the pedigree of my bitch.

As it happened this person was the doyenne of the breed, and my breeder was also someone of similar calibre.

I quite unashamedly milked them for knowledge about dog in the pedigree of my bitch they had personally known.

I also wrote to the owners/.breeders of more distant relatives tactfully asking for information, like how long they lived, could I have pictures etc.

I joined our national breed club, and purchased the last 10 years of annuals/journals.

This enabled me to see how various dogs and kennels had developed.  I then went back a further 10 years and then got as many old yearbooks as I could.

Fortunately our breed annuals print all the breed registrations, health test results etc, so you can fill all these details for your bitch, and any dogs/lines you admire.

By going back 20 or 30 years you can avoid falling into the trap of admiring what is currently fashionable.  You will notice changes or more often a pendulum of what wins, but those a long time in a  breed who breed to their interpretation of type will often be producing dogs of a consistent type, whether they win or not.

Attend any breed seminars, especially regarding judging, but keep an open mind as all speakers will have a slightly differing idea about what is correct.  Learning about basic structure and movement are  fundamentals.  Going to breed seminars of other breeds can be quite enlightening too.

Well done you for putting the time in to find out. :)

From my experience, the only way that I could find out the information that I needed was from exhibitors that I met at shows.  I was lucky that the breeder of my first bitch was helpful, but it took me some years to be accepted as 'a serious breed learner' and once the old timers realised that I was patient and would listen, gradually, very gradually, they began to share their knowledge with me.  They would talk about dogs that were around before my time, their strengths and their weaknessess.  They would eventually confide about the problems in their lines - and often about others too! ;)

Because, in order to get the full picture, we need to know not only about all the dogs in our bitch's pedigree, and the potential sire, but the ancestors siblings too, to know what is the potential of the mating that we are considering.  This all takes time - years not months.

There are some, a growing number in my breed, who are using and/or importing dogs from overseas to bring in new blood, but when I ask questions about what's behind, they can't give me any answers.  So that suits some but it wouldn't suit me! :)

You're asking all the right questions luddinghall but the only way you're going to get the answers that you need is to find someone who will share their knowledge with you, and it takes time to establish such friendships.

As you've already had some good replies about research, I hope you don't mind me putting a different point of view across. If I was you, I'd keep this dog as a pet and buy in another one to breed from, from a good breeder who can mentor you. The fact that your bitch has not been graded any better than "Very Good" would make me wonder what faults she has and should they be passed on -personally I would not be happy to breed from a bitch that wasn't graded Excellent. Yes different judges have different opinions and everyone can have a bad day and receive a Very Good, but if all judges gave her that grading then maybe she's not the best bitch to start from. I don't mean that to sound bad, just that if you managed to get a better bitch you might well get a great mentor at the same time and have a better starting point in both ways.

Thank you all for your replies.  They have given me some real areas to start with, points to think on and things and ideas to do.  I had never considered looking at a the stud owner as being a source of information or mentor (mush for brains!) and I will now be looking at finding all the breed records, yearbooks and old breed books for information as well as attending breed seminars.  I have started to talk to people around the ring and I have been blessed with some great advice and knowledge already from some of the other exhibitors, although so far it has had a bias more towards my handling and grooming and I hope that will continue and spread into other areas.

Marianne, I can completely understand where you're coming from, I know she is not the best specimen I have ever seen and I suppose I wouldn't really be improving the breed as a whole by using her, but just maintaining the status quo and being several generations behind the best in the breed at the best, if that makes sense.

You have all given me much to think on and I have a feeling I will probably continue to show her, get my face known and build some of those extremely important friendships, learn about my breed, and how best to handle and groom it, and find the dogs I truly admire and aspire to improve.  As for breeding, I think my dream may just take a little longer than I thought by the time I've brought in a better bitch that I can do justice too.

Thank you so much for your replies.  They really have given me so much to think on.

What a lovely thread!

You have all given me much to think on and I have a feeling I will probably continue to show her, get my face known and build some of those extremely important friendships, learn about my breed, and how best to handle and groom it, and find the dogs I truly admire and aspire to improve.  As for breeding, I think my dream may just take a little longer than I thought by the time I've brought in a better bitch that I can do justice too.

Oh well done you!!   Sincerely. :)
Few of us started with a bitch good enough!  When I started I used to grumble about the faces winning and me not being given a chance.  When I look back almost 30 years later, the reason that I didn't win was because the bitch I was showing, much as I loved her, wasn't good enough to win!

The bitch you have now can help teach you soooo much. There is oodles to learn about showing, ring etiquete, the way Open and Champ Shows differ, handling to show off your dog's good points and how to disguise those lesser qualities etc.  And the more that you look at the dogs in your breed, the more you will be more critical about which lines you like and the quality of the individual dogs and the breed in general.  Everything you have said in the above paragraph is totally right.

Enjoy your bitch.  Enjoy and learn from every show that you go to and when other exhibitors see your committment and enthusiasm, you'll also find a breeder who will be happy to let you have a quality bitch and will support you every step of the way to fulfill your dream. :) :)

I wish everyone was as sensible as you -good luck with everything!

This post should be stickied at the top of the breeding forum :)

After reading, seeing and hearing about such stupid people who are out there breeding I give you my full applause for being so sensible and doing the right thing - well done I wish they were all like you 'out there'.

Good idea, bump!

This is a general reply to you all, and I suppose to any others that are thinking of breeding.  It was a very, very hard decision to make, and I am normally quite decisive.  My head was screaming at me that you were/are all spot on.  But my heart, well that was another matter.  I agonised and thought and persuaded all weekend, and even whilst I was writing out my last reply.  It was all I could think about, your replies were all I could think about.  Honestly I think that even after I wrote my reply I was still giving thought to breeding my bitch anyway near the end of the year.  I can be terribly impatient and I wanted to get started as soon as I could. But last night I realised something.  I cannot give moral justification to bringing pups into this world when I cannot say that I researched every little thing, when I cannot say they are the best I could have produced, when I cannot honestly say that I would be helping the breed and improving it.  It is something I really want to do but I want my consience to be clear and I want to be able to say I honestly did my best.  I also realised I have already started, and I will continue to do my research, make friends and learn so that when I do have a litter they'll be the best damn litter one of my dogs could have. 

They say the truth hurts.  It does, but I think loosing little Mo would hurt more.  Thankyou for making me realise that I could not do this.

If only there were others as sensible as you. Well done for making the right decision. As has been previously stated very few of us are lucky enough to start off with a wonderful specimen of our breed BUT it doesn't mean we don't love them unreservedly.
I take my hat off to you :)