Hi all just thought Id warn everyone that frontline doesnt seem to be working.... Both my dogs and cat are done on a regular basis but have lodgers, the same with my mums dogs... She went to the and the vet informed her that fronline is failing due to the fleas becoming immune to it !

She was given Advocate which treats and prevents fleas and worms also lungworm..

It may just be a bad batch in our area (although I use a differant vets and am 30 miles from mums) Just thought Id let you all know...

Mine are booked into the vets tomoro for there treatment :)

x

She went to the and the vet informed her that fronline is failing due to the fleas becoming immune to it !
I'm not surprised.  Over the last 40 or so years Vets have been advising more regular use of flea treatments and worming medication.  We used to only de-flea when we saw fleas and worm once or twice a year!

Now the chemicals used are getting stronger and stronger to be effective. 

Interesting that Vets are still selling Frontline and then are happy to take more money from you for another product when they know it's not working........ :(

Do you feed garlic? :)

ive been using effipro,i hope theres no bad press about that!IS there a safe option?

Only in the liver cake. Is it good?

It looks like effipro is similar to Frontline in that it's part of the phenylpyrazole group of compounds.  I've no idea what chemicals are a safe option.

I stopped using chemical flea collars in 1996 when stopped vaccinating and started feeding garlic and I haven't seen a flea since.

so do you not vaccinate at all or use preventatives? Just wondering as I would rather not pump mine full of chemicals if there are other ways round these problems.

After seminars and a lot of research, I haven't vaccinated but I use nosodes for the first year.  I wouldn't and don't recommend that any of my puppy buyers do the same but that's the conclusion that's right for me.
My daughter has a 15 year old bitch that I bred (the oldest bitch that I've ever produced) who has never been vaccinated.  No flea treatments, no worming etc.  She has had a mammary tumour for the past 6 years that's hardly grown.  That isn't going to finish her but it may well be a secondary.  She's only ever been to the Vet once in her life for an abcess on her tooth in the last 12 months.  She had a course of antibiotics - that's it!  At 15 her back end is occassionally letting her down but she's helped enormously by a Bioflow collar.  I'm sure her days are number but at the moment she's pain free and comfortable.

It's an extremely difficult decision to go against the accepted route (and even harder for an ex-veterinary nurse!) and I'd never suggest that anyone does it, but I would say research and do what feels right for you and your dogs. :)

The only time one of the dogs had fleas is when I was using frontline combo, so gave up.  Asked around and here on the I.O.W have been told that it's been ineffective for some time. So now just check whenever I'm brushing, use a flea comb and would treat if necessary, don't like the idea of chemicals being absorbed into their bodies.

Effipro is the same chemical as Frontline, it's just FL without the brand name, so no use if your fleas are already laughing at it :)

Personally, I just keep a bottle of Frontline Spray on hand, which only gets used when there is evidence of fleas on my dog & cat. I strongly believe that the monthly spot-on regime of treatment is what's responsible for the fleas becoming resistant.

I strongly believe that the monthly spot-on regime of treatment is what's responsible for the fleas becoming resistant.
Got to be - in the same way that our doctors don't want us taking antibiotic too often or they won't work when we REALLY need them to. :)
And with regular worming too, what's the constant bombarding with chemicals, internally and externally, doing to the dogs' immune systems?????????

> And with regular worming too, what's the constant bombarding with chemicals, internally and externally, doing to the dogs' immune systems?

I'm having to rethink worming, at the moment. When I lived in an urban area I tended to worm twice a year. But within 2 months of moving to this semi-rural location my dog picked up the mother of all tapeworms. Of course that could have been down to fleas my cat may have brought in... So maybe worming every 3 months is needed here, I don't know. I just know I can't be as complacent any more, but on the other hand I don't want to use unnecessary chemicals.

Im going to do alot of reasearch now lol... I cant really use a flea comb on my pup as his coat is far to thick I only noticed he had fleas because I had to bath the dirty beasty lol even tho he is brushed daily I still hadnt seen any signs..

How do you get around social events where its specifies fully vaccinated?

Just wondering how it would be if I had one vaccinated and the other not? Only wondering as my collie never goes out she hates going for walks ect she not old but has arthritas so much prefers to stay curled up in doors (we rescued her from a barn when she was 12 weeks old poor girl).

Id like to try that,ive been putting off putting the effipro on,although shes scratching,could you tell me how much garlic to use on a collie,and would capsules be as good?

I had an outbreak last year and it took ages to get rid. I used Frontline spot on and the vet  ( and homeopathic vet) told me the same, the fleas are getting immune to it. So I had to use the spray and something which I can't remember the name of on the carpets. Never had an outbreak before in 13 years so am upping the garlic soon!!

I just pop a garlic pearl in their dinner each night.

I don't believe that the spot on had ever been effective but I'm sure that the sales have helped to pay the rent!  I would use Frontline Spray if I had a problem but I've never needed it. :)

I think these things have to be weighed up in terms of the consequences if the dog does get the parasite - the consequences both for humans and for the dog(s).

It's no big disaster if a dog gets fleas and they do not (usually) bite humans much.  The biggest problem would be an infestation - but if you keep an eye on your dogs for any crawlies, you'll spot them before you've got an infestation on your hands.  So, I don't treat preventatively for fleas.  I only treat if and when I see them.  In about 5 yrs I've spotted fleas twice.  I then treat all dogs in the household, not just the one with fleas.  I don't use a spot-on, even when I find fleas - I dislike the powerful pesticides in spot-ons, and the way they are in contact with humans who pet the dogs in the environment and not just the dogs.  Instead I use oral tablets for fleas.  I use Capstar to kill adult fleas and then I use Program for a few months subsequently, which kills off immature fleas and prevents them developing. 

Ticks are another matter entirely, because if you wait till your dog has them, and then treat, your dog is endangered by all the tick borne diseases there are.  Many more of which are making their way over here from the continent - and some of which, like Lymes disease, are incurable and will ultimately lead to an untimely death.  I have a close family relative who moved to Spain and whose dog now has Lymes disease from ticks.  Ticks also cannot be effectively treated with an oral product. 

You probably don't need to treat preventatively for ticks in the cooler months of the year however - so that's 6 months you can save yourself of treatment!  Whether you need to treat preventatively for ticks even in the warmer months probably depends on where in the UK you live.  We took a holiday in Cornwall a few years ago and, coming from an area where we had no problem with ticks, we had not treated our dogs.  Well, almost every time we took them out for a walk, they would have 2-3 ticks on them when we got back.  If we lived there permanently, I would be treating preventatively.  If we went on holiday there again, I would treat our dogs before we went.  Whenever we go to the continent with them, they are treated beforehand.  My 2 preferred products are the Scalibor collar (available only from your vet) and the Advantix spot-on.  The latter also kills fleas.  The Scalibor collar works IIRC for about 3 months, so it is a more economical method and can cover you for the whole season.  It is also extremely effective.  I would not use Frontline - coming back from France a few years ago, the vet for the Pet Passport scheme treated our dogs with Frontline.  48 hours later we were back home and I found living fleas on a dog!!  I really don't think Frontline is effective at all, for ticks or fleas.  The best spot-on I've found is Advantix.

As for worming...  It's usually not a big deal for a dog to get worms and is unlikely to cause a big health problem.  (Lung worm excluded.)  However, round and tapeworms are zoonotic (can be given to humans) more so than any of the above.  Worm eggs can also live in the environment for a long time.  Furthermore, the chemical is only given to the dog and, unlike a spot-on, is not going to cause a risk to humans.  So I do treat preventatively every 3 months with Drontal +.  I don't treat for lung worm, but I need to look into that more as it is a relatively new risk. 

I don't think there are any blanket answers to these issues.  For each parasite, each of us has to weigh up:  The risks in the area where we live, which vary with the seasons and the type of dog we have.  (One which runs through undergrowth or eats poo is going to contract more ticks and worms.)  And the outcome if the parasite is contracted (life-threatening or merely gross, and a danger to humans or not). 

I have always used the spray when I did use it, and now that we seem to have ticks in the garden (assume Mr Hedgehog or the Foxes) will have to spray the puppies before they go outside as picked up a couple last time. 

The adults don't seem to as I check carefully.  Have never had a flea problem, even when next door did, but did have one (now dead) that had flea allergy dermatitis, probably from the odd hop on at shows, so we used it every 3 months until she died.

People do not get worms from dogs we have our own varieties of round,tape and thread worms and dogs dont get them from us.
The tapeworm comes from cat fleas or dog fleas only.
If people got worms from dogs i dont think there would be as many kept as pets.

>If people got worms from dogs i dont think there would be as many kept as pets.

Have you never heard of the condition Toxocariasis?

>People do not get worms from dogs we have our own varieties of round,tape and thread worms and dogs dont get them from us.

Unfortunately, this is absolutely incorrect.  As explained here:

http://www.petshed.com/petcyclopedia/human-risk-from-worms-in-dogs.html

Yes i have heard of toxocariasis it causes cysts to form in the human body in very rare cases.

>it causes cysts to form in the human body in very rare cases.

It's not a common condition, but neither is it rare. Blindness, where the canine worm larvae migrate to the human eye, is the most rare, but there are other conditions caused by cross-species infection. Read the NHS link given earlier.

I just pop a garlic pearl in their dinner each night.

West Coast....can I just ask if odourless garlic perles have the same effect...??

Just that someone saw me sprinkling food grade Diatomateous Earth on the green tripe my dogs were having for dinner that night...and I explained that I use it as a worm deterrent amongst other things....and that I have also started adding a garlic perle to their meals as well

She asked me if odourless garlic perles were ok as she had them in her cupboard...and wanted to find a natural alternative to spot on treatments for her dog who was suffering from a skin condition...

I wasn't sure...so I said I'd find out for her :)

I use garlic flakes for my dogs half a teaspoon every day.
I get the 6kg bucket from hyperdrug and lasts for 6 months

A friend of mine who's a dog trainer used to give garlic to her dogs to prevent worms. 

Then she found a gigantic tapeworm in her dog's poo - and lots more inside, once wormed.

These products do not work.  The most they can do is DETER parasites.  They do not eliminate and prevent them.  There is enough bad press around about dogs already without furthering it by not worming your dog to prevent zoonotic diseases and parasites.  If this were purely about your right to do what you want to your dog, I wouldn't mind that some people choose not to worm.  (Just as I don't mind that some choose not to vaccinate.)  But when diseases and parasites are zoonotic and dogs live in close proximity to humans, and worm eggs can survive incredibly long times in the soil and on the ground, then it is irresponsible not to regularly worm your dog.

Just to clarify i worm my my adult dogs every 6 months and pups from 2 to 12 weeks fortnightly then monthly till 6 months all are done with drontal.
And i do clean up as soon as they go where ever we are unlike some who leave it to rot.

Well I saw the vet today and she tried to sell me FRONTLINE lol... I asked for the advocate and she was happy to give me this. It does everything in one go so thats a bonus it also designed for lungworm also and as there has been several reports of it in the area im in (near the new forest) Im probably going to stick with it. Also where I have kids I think I would rather be safe than sorry after reading those reports :(

x

She asked me if odourless garlic perles were ok
That's what I've used. :)

Advocate does not work on tapeworm and does not work on ticks:  http://www.discountpetcare.co.uk/products.aspx?id=15&product=advocate_spot_on_&gclid=CIqV45OO5aYCFUkhfAodKHn76w

Yes I got that bit wrong it doesnt work on tics, it works on :Fleas, Larvae, whipworm, hookworm, roundworm, angiostrongylus, heartworm, otodectes,saracoptes, demodex and louse.

My vet did say if I want to do the tick prevention to go back when the weather gets warmer, she also said that it would have to be one heffty tick to get thro my boys coat lol she never said it couldnt happen just she would be suprised she also advised keeping an eye and just treating if and when needed.

she also said that it would have to be one heffty tick to get thro my boys coat
Duh!  They tend to attach to the muzzle or tips of the ears. :(

If they attach to his ears or mussel  they would be seen easy and I can remove them myself as wouldnt need the vet for that one lol x

Absolutely! :)

Fussing my mad hairy friend on the sofa earlier.....and off drops one big fat well-gorged TICK!!!  And here's me thinking it was far too cold...hard white frosts and all.
Will be Frontlining tomorrow but loathe to overload the 'chemical highs' as she has only just had her booster and I hate doing that but she's off to kennels at the weekend....  :-(

My hairy dog gets far more ticks than my short-haired dog.  The ticks use the long hair to catch hold and then crawl up it into the skin.  Far easier than slick short hair.  Hairier dogs are far more at risk of ticks than short-haired dogs.

Hmmm I'm off to shave my legs right now!!!  lol

> People do not get worms from dogs

   

I beg your pardon?

> We used to only de-flea when we saw fleas and worm once or twice a year!
>
>

I still only keep something in for fleas "just in case", and after wondering if my dogs really needed worming so often, left them a year and sent faecal samples off to Langford from each of my Collies.

Results came back as free from worms. 

" So I had to use the spray and something which I can't remember the name of on the carpets. Never had an outbreak before in 13 years so am upping the garlic soon!! "

Indorex Spray? about 10 pounds a can?  I've used that before and its amazing.  Killed everything, even the flies!

left them a year and sent faecal samples off to Langford from each of my Collies.

Results came back as free from worms.
Great!  Imagine the number of dogs who unnecessarily pumped full of chemicals as a routine. :(

I was given ACCLAIM from the vets It better be good costing £18 lol

> I was given ACCLAIM from the vets It better be good costing £18 lol

LOL you were done..... It costs less than that in Boots!
Yep you can buy it in there, and yep - it works brilliantly. No point in treating a flea infestation without treating the house as well and Acclaim lasts for a long time.

>left them a year and sent faecal samples off to Langford from each of my Collies.

>Results came back as free from worms.
>Great!  Imagine the number of dogs who unnecessarily pumped full of chemicals as a routine

Unfortunately worms or eggs do not show up in every faecal sample, even when a dog is carrying them. 

You can worm a bitch all her life and then, when she has a litter, her pups will still be infested if you didn't worm her during pregnancy.  The eggs are encysted there.

Yes Luddingtonhall, the stuff I used on my carpets was Indorex. For someone who is anti chemical it was a really hard decision to make but I had to break the cycle and I had tried more natural remedies than I could shake a stick at. The overwhelming stench took your breath away even with every window in the house open, BUT it did the trick.

Yes, you couldn't be in the same room with it, you could feel it at the back of your throat.  I had to use it to clear out an infestation at my parents, house unoccupied for 6-7 weeks and we walked back in and could feel them landing all over us and one application and they were all gone.

Interestingly in the USA it is not routine to worm the puppies, most of the breeders I am in touch with send fecal samples for testing and worm if the results indicate.

The testing they say  is pretty cheap, so worth doing rather than routine worming

Mind you a lot of the dogs are on monthly heartworm medication which is usually something that kills worms too.

> sent faecal samples off to Langford

Jean, I likewise haven't wormed mine for some time, obviously keep an eye on them both for signs but have probably wormed them once in the last two years! Can I ask how much it costs to send a faecal sample for testing as would much prefer to do that. Many thanks.

> She asked me if odourless garlic perles were ok
> That's what I've used. :-)

WestCoast. Does the amount of garlic perles given depend on the size/weight of dog?

Possibly. :)  I would give one perle every other day to a toy or small dog, 1 per day for medium sizes and 2 for larger dogs, but of course, that's just my opinion. :)

> You can worm a bitch all her life and then, when she has a litter, her pups will still be infested if you didn't worm her during pregnancy.  The eggs are encysted there.

Thank you for your advice.  But I think I know all this after breeding for a very long time (I started back in the dark ages) and fully understand pregnancy hormones and encysted worms.  Granny and suck eggs???

FYI My 3 Collies have never been used for breeding.  I have only ever bred 3 of the Toy breeds.