I have posted this topic as i think somone will anyway. When you have a kc bitch and you want to breed what is the minimum age that you can breed her from> i have been told it is from 12 months is this true.

Debbie,
as far as i know, i would have thought it dependant on the breed of dog, and there would be reccomendations set by either the breed clubs or the kc. A large dog matures much more slowly than a small dog, and i would have thought that at just 12 months, most dogs are really still puppies.
Emma

As people have said the minimun age for a kc to breed is 12 months, i have been checking on this. So what it looks like to me is I have not done wrong with breeding cleo at 15 months, it is the kc that is the problem. with some anyway.

rotts shouldnt be mated until theyre 2 years old---its in the breed clubs code of ethics, theyre notmature until 2!

Dizzy you will tell me if i am wrong, why is the kc ruling over 12 months. So this means that they can mate under 2 is that right

there are so many breeds, and what would be ok for a toy breed, which mature very early wouldnt be acceptable in a big breed----the rott clubs all ask they should be 2 before theyre bred from, before that theyre basicly pups themselves,
even in breeds that mature very young im not sure that any of them would expect to register a litter from a 12 month bitch-even though you say the kc would register them

Right, so cleo was 16.5 months when i breed the 1st time, if she had of been kc that litter would have been registered, am i right in saying this. I am not trying to course any arguements so please dont think that, i just want to get the facts right, then i know more.

I have a friend who bred her reg. golden retriever's on their 2nd heat and as far as I know all pups were reg. That would of made her the same age as Cleo. The vet told her it was fine, and everything went fine she had 7 healthy pups, boy were they cute.
ttfn :)

Debbie,
The KC can only put in place very general rules. Each individual breed club usually also apply their own rules/guidelines and, as others have said, this varies from breed to breed.

Dollface,
it would appear that this also vastly differs from continent to continent because I see you mentioned Golden Retriever's. We used to have Golden Retrievers and here in the UK, the golden retriever club recommended NOT to breed a golden bitch until she was approximately 2 1/2 - 3 years old. We certainly didn't breed ours till she was 2 years 9 months and fully mature which would've made her older than Cleo before having her 1st (and only) litter :)

I suppose it can be related to human breeding in that the majority of woman probably have babies between the ages of 18 - 36 but there's still some who have them at 13 - 15 which IMHO is probably similar in maturity to a golden retriever/ rottwieller size of dog in it's 2nd heat.
Dot

More than likely it probable does differ depending where u live.
ttfn :)

Debbie , Rules are hard to govern so the 12 months is guidelines about what the KC will not tolerate but by this rule they are not saying " breed if over 12 months" most breeds are not suited to be bred until 2 years old some far older and some " SLIGHTLY" younger but not generally a large breed. I have not much experience of Rotties but know they are not mature enough to be bred at 15 months.

As you are aware I have westies. This is one breed that is suited to younger breeding as there is evidence they whelp better under 2 years but this is something that very experienced people have decided. Most do still advice waiting till at least 18 months.

BFN

Pam

The Kennel club make a blanket rule ffor ALL breeds, as obviously what is right for one breed isn't for another. They also instruct breed clubs to have Codes of Ethics to cover breed specific advice :D

I was always told on the third heat or 2 years old which ever comes first. I was told this by other breeders, vets, and after doing a lot of reading on it. I have had reg. breeder's tell me it is o.k to breed on the 2nd heat, but I would rather wait until 3rd heat or 2 years then I feel the bitch is alot more mature and properly developed.
ttfn :)

I was told by breeders that the 2nd heat was ok to breed on.

but you have bostons dont you, a small breed that would mature quicker,

Yes I do and I was told 3rd heat and thats how I would breed any bitch, but do no people who bred big dogs on 2nd heat.
ttfn:)

My first thoughts have been "Oh my God" when I read that Cleo was mated on her 2nd season. Debbie, basically what did you have to gain (Other than monetary) from breeding from Cleo so quickly?

Years ago, people used to breed from their bitches at very young ages but then cavemen used to drag cavewoman around by the hair...do we still do that?

My 3rd bitch Mia was 2 yo in August, she has had just 1 season. Looking at her I wouldn't even contemplate a litter from her at her next season (Even though it would be perfectly ok by my Club's rules). She is not mature mentally for one, she still wants to run and play and basically behave like a spoilt little madam. When she gets to 4, then I will think carefully about it.

The thing that makes me so wary of pedigreed non KC registered bitches, is that basically they can be bred from season after season because the KC never gets to know about the resulting puppies and any new owners have no way of tracing a bitches breeding record.

What do u mean that they can not be traced because they are not reg?

In the quarterly Breed Records supplements published by the KC, for each group of dogs, next to every litter registered in that 3 months will be the names of the sire & dam.

Alongside the dams name, it will give her DOB, date of birth of the litter getting registered, the DOB of the last litter registered under the dams name, how many litters she has had in total and the total amount of puppies registered to her.

Eg: Mr & Mrs A.N.Other, 25/12/2002, Lucky Dog AA2 - No Way to Treat a Lady AB3 (1/4/00) 2/20

A person can find out how many litters have been registered to a particular bitch, and perhaps that migh effect their opinion of the breeder, someone buying unregistered pups has no idea of the mothers breeding history, age, or whether the pups are even purebred.

Yes I know that in some breeds where unregistered pups fetch near enough same price as KC reg ones, that some unethical puppy producers breed each season, and register alternating litters, and sell the others with out registration, but this is a production line, not breeding in it's proper sense.

I can understand what you say about breeding non stop as kc would not know. But i do know of people that breed one litter kc and the next with ped papers only. so who is right and who is wrong.

It is the 2nd time cleo has been breed and then, we will all be having a break for a while.

<<<But i do know of people that breed one litter kc and the next with ped papers only. so who is right and who is wrong.>>>

Can you really not see why this is done? To hide from the KC and the TAX MAN how many litters they're really producing! No ethical breeder has anything to hide!!

If you're trying to justify what you have done and ease your 'maybe' pricked conscience by relating what the KC says as 'right', then you're never going to learn! The KC is just a registering body who makes money off of all these ???? litters! Why should they tell you any different?

True but they make no money from me as mine are not kc.

Geez, I would never have guessed that! :rolleyes:

Ok, i'm not trying to start a fight, but i thought you were going to have her spayed after this litter?

So if i am right in thinking the kc would have no problems with me breeding cleo on her 2nd heat, of course she is not kc. so it sounds to me that the thing people think i am doing in wrong comes back to the same thing kc or not.

No the KC might not, but if you were a responsible owner and had joined one of the many Rottweiler clubs, you would have had to abide by their code of ethics which I'm sure like my own breed stipulate a minimum age that they think a bitch can be bred from.

That would make in an ethical breeder because u followed the breed code according to the kc, so if they r wrong them maybe someone should tell the kc they r wrong then uh?

Oh so what are you saying now, it doesnt matter if she isnt kc, as long as i am in a rottweiler club and abide by there rules. There seem to be too many rules for this and that and each one contradict, the other.

BUT Debbie, if you were in a Rottie club, their code of ethics would also state your breeding stock were to be hip scored etc. which yours are definitely not!

no mine are not hipscored due to not being kc, but i have had hips and eyes checked, but of course this does not count(so some say).

so are kc no good then as it seems they too are after money, i thought they were top notch.

Ok, Debbie...why do you have your dogs eyes tested? Could you tell me what form of eye disease Rottweilers suffer from?

Lilly, is this what you are after, cateracts,retina, abnormal development of the retina, can lead to blindness. motor neuronspathics, etc is this what you were wanting. I am no expert on anything.

The KC I would equate to the local Pub. Pubs are there to make money from selling food and alcohol. Now some people become Alcoholics, and one could argue if drink wasn't available then this wouldn't happen. It is the persons responsibility to use their concience and good judgement. doctors tell us how many units of alcohol it is safe to drink.. The pub landlord can sell you more than these units, but is not supposed to serve a person that is obviously drunk!

The Kennel Club is the Governing body for most Canine Activities, and the Internationally recognised registry for pedigree dogs.

They also need money to keep going, so the two sometimes sit uncomfprtably together, as unfortunately they gain revenue from registration fees of breeders good and bad, and actually probably more from the bad one swho produce more pups!

Sorry Debbie but it doesn't make breeding from a 15 month old large breed bitch, and then breeding again under a year later, her health status can only be guessed at, as unless your vet is a orthapeadic expert, and a canine Opthalmologist and Cardiologist, his opinion of these aspects is not qualified.

Would you trust your GPs assessment of a possible serious heart condition.

Hear hear, Brainless!

Debbie,

The KC system is for registration purposes, it sets guidelines only. The breed clubs have their own code of ethics as they know about that individual breed.

The KC could not govern each individual breed as this would be impossible.

I use the KC for my dogs , I am also a memeber of the Scottish Kennel club, the WHWT club of Scotland and England out of interest to my breed.

Does that make sense?

Some of these not so ethical breeders you mention you would hopefully avoid if you joined a good Rottie club , you would then get help and

advice from more ethical and knowledgeable breeders and owners.

BFN

Pam

Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it should be done.

Breeding from Cleo when she was so young and then allowing her to be mated on the consecutive season is just plain wrong. You can come up with as many excuses as you like but it certainly isn't in the best interests of your bitch, who should afterall come first in all of this as she has no say in all of this.

Fiona

As someone has already said, I think Debbie knows that she has not done things properly regarding her Rottie breeding, and probably wishes she had done things differently in hindsight.

Yes many posters have given her a hard time over it, probably more so as she keeps trying to Justify matters, rather than admit that there are better ways of going about it.

Bec has decided to defend her from the negative reaction, whcih I can understand, as things have got heated on this topic.

Now Debbie and peeps, let us leave the subject, as I think we all now know what is right.

My fervent hope is that Debbie has Cleo spayed after this litter, and the male Castrated. They will have produced two litters, which is quite enough of the same combination. Most breeders do not repeat mating very often, as it reduces the gene pool.

In a another year or two Debbie would be best advised, after having studied the breed by attending breed events run by her local or national Rottie club, to find herself a knowledgeable breeder, who may let her buy a foundation bitch, if she heeds good advice. She can then start breeding properly and responsibly overseen by more knowledgeable persons initially.

Peace on Earth and Good will to all :D :D :D

I'm sure that Debbie does regret the way things have worked out - she'd have to be a really hard hearted ##### not too, but she doesn't come across that way. She's constantly looking to justify what has happened which just gets peoples backs up.

We all need to step back a bit from this and let Debbie ask the questions she wants to without the criticism and recriminations (and yes, I know I've been guilty of that). What's done, is done and can't be changed but perhaps Debbies future can be guided into a better one for her and her dogs.

God knows we've all done things we regret and constantly going over the same old ground doesn't help anyone, least of all the dogs/pups involved.

I stand by my comments/feelings on what has happened in the past but as I didn't know Debbie then (not that I know her know, only via her postings) but I can't change what happened then - my only concern now is for the future.

Fiona
x x x

Debbie - make sure you do contact Phil if you need to know anything during Cleos pg or whelping. She'll help in anyway she can.

As Dizzy says the breed club for Rotties states 2 years as the age of maturity. In my breed the code of ethics states 18 months These guide lines have been drawn up by groups of expirienced breeders who have the good of their chosen breed at heart .Yes the KC will register a litter from a bitch who is younger but unfortunately they are also out to make money from these registrations.Then there is the question of health checks.The KC will register puppies without these being done but that doesn't mean it is right not to get all the relevent tests done before the dogs are breed from .At the end of the day The Kennel Club makes money and is therefore not the only organisation who's gudelines need to be followed.JMO Gillian

To be absolutely truthful, I think there is someone helping Debbie to play Devils Advocate here because I think they want to see the board being destroyed. :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

No i do not want this board to go, i am asking for the truth on kc, and ages, nothing more. i though they had to be 2 but have now learnt that kc will register pups when the bitch is over 12 months, so once again i have learnt somthing from this board.

DEVILS ADVOCATE NO

You are learning only what YOU want to take on board but you are quite happy to have your own set of rules for your poor bitch and then try to make out that it's perfectly ok to breed from her at such an age because if she was KC registered, the KC would register her pups!!!!!!!!!! :(

No i have learnt alot from this board and the people on it, i may act like i dont want certain information, but believe me it is all going in this silly head of mine, i only wish i could learn how to spell. lol

Hi Debbie ,
I do not breed.However , what i can see is that the KC register many several of hundreds of litters each year and so have to generalise a minimum breeding age.They do not know each breed intimatley , but will register a Kc reg dog's litter if the dog is over a year.This to me is step one of getting a good pup.The kc safeguard the fact that you are buying a dog who's history can be checked and whos parents are not being exploited by being bred from too much.
Step two as a breeder is to find out more about YOUR breed~the kc safeguard ALL breeds~only a BREED club will know the inn's and outs of a paticular breed.What it regularly suffers from etc , and , most importantly , the best and healthiest age to start breeding from.

zoe how do i join the club

i think you can find the web sight with your search engine.With my breed club ( Newfoundland) i downloaded an application off of the web sight.Ihad to find two other Newfoundland owners to sign my form , then pay a subscription fee.I assume its the same for all breeds.
It would be a good idea , as im sure you have your dogs best wishes at heart ( as we all do ) and allthough its too late for your dogs to be KC reg it shows a commitment to the breed to join the breed club ( im not saying you are not commited )
Also , it has many advantages too , upcoming events , puts you in touch with other owners etc and keeps you informed of issues relating to your breed.
Will help when you have pups too.
Good luck x
Zoe x

Zoe thankyou very much, i would love your help thankyou.

debbie x

If u are referring to me then I could just as well say u are too. But to not answer question's just because someone is not reg and be mean to them is very childish. U say because they are not reg. that they do not know their lines is not right either.
I have one reg. dog which is my male studd. My female is not reg, but her father is. I have his pedigree. My female would of been reg. But when my breeder bought her dogs the paper's were suppose to come and never did. This is over 10 yrs ago. Now the lady she bought her bitches off of now has reg. and champion stock. When my bitch was in whelp there are ultra sounds/rays to do, not cheap. Possible c-sections everytime. I knew all this before I got into the breed. Then turn around take all pups and bitch to the vet after being born and for shots. I also give a care package and a copy of ped. off my bitches father and my studd. I know what is all heriditary in my breed and genital as well. So if anyone thinks I went into this lightly u r WRONG. Rego for $1000 and up depending on breeding right and pet. My studd was bought with breeding rights. I have even talked to a judge and breeder of Bt about my studd. I know the lines of my Bt and so do the people who bought one. I would never inbreed. I have studded him out to an unreg Bt but not until I knew her line, which turned out to be related to my bitch by 4 generations. So yes I do my homework and would not breed to one that did not resemble the look of the breed. I never mislead u if any of u think that because no one asked. If u think it had to do with money, boy r u wrong. I put more into them and lucky if I ever broke even. I bred because I love the breed and enjoyed my BT. Now my bitch is fixed and one to cary on the line. Yes I know exactly where my lines originated from and come from. I may not be reg. but never went into this lightly, I did alot of research and reading, talking to breeders ect. So if u want to hate me so be it. I'm sure there are many more on this board than anyone knows about because of all the beef this one person got.
ttfn :)

well put dollface, you have said what needs to be said. thankyou