Yes, am sure that's true (that more labradoodles than SPs are being bred). But I was simply making the point that some labradoodle breeders are testing - and that's good. In fact, more labradoodles - which have not been around long - have been hip-scored (over 600) than many HD-prone breeds that have been around since hip scoring began. Their current BMS, btw, is 13. Labradors and PoodlesL 14 - so pretty much the same, as you'd expect.

Jemima

I am owned by a giant breed and the average life-span is now between 12 & 14 years.

What breed, NanaNine?

Jemima

Missed this useful link before - a breakdown of weight/lifespan:

http://users.pullman.com/lostriver/weight_and_lifespan.htm

"Most of the longest-lived breeds are small. Most of the short-lived breeds are large. However, not all small breeds are long-lived.  Many small breeds have median longevities between 9 and 11 years.By the same token, while most large breeds have median longevities of less than 8 years, many breeds in the 80+ pound groups have median longevities between 9 and 12 years. Note also that a few of the shortest-lived breeds (Miniature Bull Terrier, Bulldog,  and Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever) are medium-sized dogs."

Jemima

> So... back to the longevity link I gave you. Can you see that it does, indeed, show that giant breeds live less long?
>
> Jemima

But does this mean it is due just to size?  The point being made that some families, species sub species have a shorter lifespan built into their genes,a dn it isn't as simple as just one reason.

It is a bit like CPRA.  For years it was known to be a reccesive hereditary disease, but it turns out it was actually caused by an inherited  metabolic disorder that causes the eye problem.

"Weight and longevity

In general, small dogs live longer than large dogs, but there is great variability within size classes. The longest-lived giant breeds live nearly as long as the shortest-lived toy breeds"

Jemima - Re Schpperkees:

Clearly, this is a fairly robust, long-lived breed with natural conformation.

you forgot to add that this is also a breed almost entirely left in the hands of the show breeder - no puppy farmers or BYB's target this breed so it remains an uncommercial one bred by enthusiaists who use peer pressure and detailed knowledge of their dogs lines to  'self regulate ' this ensures that overwhelmingly any breeding stock is health tested  and problems are not doubled up on.

The Schip gene pool is small and almost all are related to some degree ( across Europe as well )  yet because the breed is in the hands of enthusuiasts it remains a healthy breed - this is also true of many many unpopular uncommercial breeds ( my own included ) - it is only when a breed becomes 'fashionable ' and is then bred by those outside of the influence of breed clubs etc that untested dogs or unsuitable dogs are bred from and problems are likely to  escalate.

Yvonne 

P.s Bruce Cattanach's Boxers may only have taken 4 generations to get back to something resembling 'type' but the LUA Dalmations took 15 generations and something like 30 years to regain their breed type !! - and don't forget if outcrosing is done to increase genetic diversity then it would need to be repeated every 3/4 generations to maintain this - where would our 200 individual breeds be then ?

Yvonne

> because the breed is in the hands of enthusiasts it remains a healthy breed - this is also true of many many unpopular uncommercial breeds ( my own included ) - it is only when a breed becomes 'fashionable ' and is then bred by those outside of the influence of breed clubs etc that untested dogs or unsuitable dogs are bred from

ditto my own breed.

We only had 33 puppies registered last year (from a high of around 300 in the 70's, and 150 when I joined the breed 20 years ago), why because people involved in the breed are so aware of the long term responsibilities and costs of breeding that many feel unable to, or only breed barely enough.

Sadly commercially bred ones costing the same as well bred health tested stock are being bred with no health testing or selection at all, and problems are cropping up in those dogs bred on the wrong side of the blanket. 

The saddest thing of all is that people are likely to gain their impression of the breed from such badly bred dogs (who are now a larger proportion of the whole population), so harming a breeds reputation.

This is the harm Ms Harrison seems unaware of having done, when criticising breeders all under one heading.

How many modern day breeders who can only keep 4 - 6 dogs can afford to wait their whole dog owning life to finally again own the breed they love after owning several generations of crossed/back-crossed ones?

I don't want to own an Elkhound cross, then a 3/4 Elkhound and so on. 

I wouldn't be able to take part in my hobby of showing them, so would have to be attending shows dogless in order to see what stock is available, but most of it would also not be shown, so we would all be fumbing in the dark. 

After all the crosses wouldn't have enough breed type to be worth showing even if allowed.

How many modern day breeders who can only keep 4 - 6 dogs can afford to wait their whole dog owning life to finally again own the breed they love after owning several generations of crossed/back-crossed ones?

I don't want to own an Elkhound cross, then a 3/4 Elkhound and so on. 

I wouldn't be able to take part in my hobby of showing them, so would have to be attending shows dogless in order to see what stock is available, but most of it would also not be shown, so we would all be fumbing in the dark. 

But if that's what it's going to take to safeguard the future health and well being of our pedigree dogs isn't someone, at some point,  going to have to be selfless enough to do just that?

They may not get to see the final 'end product' but they will have the satisfaction of knowing that all their efforts and dedication was to safeguard the breed(s) they love.

Where do we draw the line between what we want and what is in the best interests of our dogs? 

Given that we (human beings) originally took control of dogs, brought them into an artificially constructed breeding programme to 'create' the numerous breeds in the first place and then continued to put breeding controls in place to organise, maintain and classify those breeds the way we want them to be, don't we also have an ethical responsibility to do whats best for them and not continue to put our wants first when faced with the predicament we are now faced with?

If what has been said is correct, we (human beings) are at a cross roads, and the choices we (humans) make are  crucial to the future health of our dogs.  Why is anyone procrastinating about which path to take? 

I'm afraid I  don't understand how we can profess to love the species/breed(s) but not take a stand to protect their best interest.

P.s Bruce Cattanach's Boxers may only have taken 4 generations to get back to something resembling 'type' but the LUA Dalmations took 15 generations and something like 30 years to regain their breed type !! - and don't forget if outcrosing is done to increase genetic diversity then it would need to be repeated every 3/4 generations to maintain this - where would our 200 individual breeds be then ?

Other research shows that on average it would take about four gens for most crosses. The Dals did take longer than four gens (not the 15 gens you say, though) to get the spotting show-ring-correct. But, of course, in the Dals' case, there has only ever been one outcross and here we are 13 or so generations down the line with a growing population of LUA Dals - with, incidentally, no compromise to genetic diversity because it's been done so carefully.

Bruce's boxers and the LUA Dals are a slightly different case in that the outcross was done to bring in a specific gene. Outcrossing for health/diversity would be done to bring in several genes that do not code for appearance (ie those that code for immune function). And you don't actually, have to keep doing it. Just a few individuals can make an enormous difference as long as the progeny are used. A single outcross in Cesky Terriers boosted litter size in the 1980s (although does need doing again now).

Re the Shipperkes being in the hands of a handful of enthusiasts - absolutely, but the same is true of many other breeds that are now in big trouble. These enthusiasts haven't deliberately done anything bad. But inbreeding within a small gene pool takes its toll. You simply can't keep doing it for ever. It's possible that one or two breeds might get lucky, but the majority will not.

Jemima

How many modern day breeders who can only keep 4 - 6 dogs can afford to wait their whole dog owning life to finally again own the breed they love after owning several generations of crossed/back-crossed ones?

Yes, in the old days there were large kennels that could afford to think longer-term. So I understand how you feel - but sooner or later it is very likely that someone will have to otherwise you won't have elkhounds in generations to come.  I presume there are more Elkhounds worldwide (?), but only 33 registrations last year is clearly a worryingly low figure - and a rapid route to bigtime inbreeding.

A breed conservation plan is,  I believe, the responsibility of those breed enthusiastis who consider themselves the guardians of the breed - perhaps this is already being discussed?  If not breeders (internatinally, ideally) need to pull together to think about this bigger-picture stuff now - and to share the responsibilities of safeguarding their breeds for the future. 

Jemima

We only had 33 puppies registered last year (from a high of around 300 in the 70's, and 150 when I joined the breed 20 years ago), why because people involved in the breed are so aware of the long term responsibilities and costs of breeding that many feel unable to, or only breed barely enough.

Sadly commercially bred ones costing the same as well bred health tested stock are being bred with no health testing or selection at all, and problems are cropping up in those dogs bred on the wrong side of the blanket. 

Brainless, could you clarify... It isn't a commercially popular breed so am surprised to hear that Elkhounds are being produced this way. Presumably, given the low reg figures, they're not being KC-reg'd?

What are the needed health tests? PRA + hip dysplasia? What problems are cropping up in the commercially bred ones? And how do you know this?

Jemima

could you please clarify for a lay person what outcrossing is? is it getting in foreign dogs of a new gene pool or crossing with a different breed producing cross breeds?

Yes, in the old days there were large kennels that could afford to think longer-term. So I understand how you feel - but sooner or later it is very likely that someone will have to otherwise you won't have elkhounds in generations to come.  I presume there are more Elkhounds worldwide (?), but only 33 registrations last year is clearly a worryingly low figure - and a rapid route to bigtime inbreeding.

A breed conservation plan is,  I believe, the responsibility of those breed enthusiastis who consider themselves the guardians of the breed - perhaps this is already being discussed?  If not breeders (internatinally, ideally) need to pull together to think about this bigger-picture stuff now - and to share the responsibilities of safeguarding their breeds for the future. 

My sentiments exactly.  We (humans) can't continue to think in the short term, there has to be a long-term plan if these very crucial issues are to be resolved. 

Well it's getting to the point in the discussion where the naysayers on Champdogs stick their fingers in their ears and sing La-La-La-La very loudly but...

Jemima - this is pathetic! It is exactly the same arrogant nonsense used by Global Warmists to pooh pooh anyone who isn't taken in by their hype. Anyone who disagrees with the Gospel according to Jemima is a Denier. What nonsense! People simply, on the basis of their experience and intelligence, disagree with you. That does not make them morally inferior. It simply means that (a) we are not taken in by the cheap "throw the baby out with the bathwater" journalism you espouse; and (b) we are disgusted by the way in which you (and the idiot former chief vet of the RSPCA) have been responsible for the biggest boost that unethical breeders have ever had. As a direct result of your biassed programme, we now have the puppy farmers, backyard breeders and naive/greedy "pet" breeders proudly producing litter after litter of poor quality, pups from un-health-tested parents all quoting PDE and saying our dogs aren't KC registered so they must be healthier than those nasty show dogs. We have the same, or similar unprincipled, unethical commercial "breeders" producing litter after litter of crossbreeds - again from untested adults proudly boasting that their "designer dogs" are healthier than those nasty show dogs.
We all know that there are problems with certain breeds, and yes, we knew that long before PDE. But for most of us, the real, immediate issue in the dog world is the commercial mass production of poor quality dogs by unethical breeders - whether large scale puppy farmers, backyard breeders or naive/greedy "pet" breeders. These are the people whose litters are swelling the huge numbers of rescues, these are the scum who people like you and the RSPCA should be targeting. These are the unprincipled characters who keep people like me who work in rescue busy 24/7. If you attacked them with the same enthusiasm with which you attacked the pedigree dog/show world I would have the utmost respect for you. As it is I have very little.

>could you please clarify for a lay person what outcrossing is?

Outcrossing (to dog breeders) means using an unrelated animal of the same breed; it needn't be from another country. Using an animal from a different breed is called cross-breeding.

tina s, I'm assuming the term outcrossing is being used to describe using a different breed, but usually that's within the same group.  So outcrossing a flat coat for example, could be done to a another retriever; and this is where I'm not sure it's of that much use, since these breeds have all been crossed to make up the breed type that exists.  So you're only crossing back to a breed that is already in the genetic make up of your dog, surely?? 

I think the reference to retrievers being crossed as recently as WWII and in the years immediately after is a bit misleading, I thought that was done because of lack of numbers of some retriever breeds, not as a health concern? 

> Brainless, could you clarify... It isn't a commercially popular breed so am surprised to hear that Elkhounds are being produced this way. Presumably, given the low reg figures, they're not being KC-reg'd?
>
> What are the needed health tests? PRA + hip dysplasia? What problems are cropping up in the commercially bred ones? And how do you know this?
>
>

I stand to be corected, but as I understand it historically stock was sent to Ireland to preserve bloodlines during the war.  The breed got quite a following among purely pet owners of the type who will breed a litter or the sake of it.  Also some got itno comecrical kennels in the 70's (but never sold in particulary large numbers), when Breed Rescue was started up.

A large commercial Kennel in the North buys quite a lot of litters wholesale from Ulster and Ireland.  We did get the KC to remove KC registering privileges from those who had registered stock, when it was proved the breeders were selling to wholesalers as some new owners joined the breed club and were willing to shop them.  Shortly after this lo and behold an alternative registration company started up.

Sadly even the best breeders get hoodwinked occasionally and a bitch or dog gets into the wrong hands, as did a friends bitch who whelped at 17 months and the owner wanted endorsements lifted, despite the contract to health test etc.

Sadly a friend found a website of a commercially motivated breeder breeding unregistered stock in the UK recently ;(  We can only exert influence and control over those willing to be so influenced.  See breed club code of ethics here: http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=necgb+code+of+ethics&meta=&rlz=

I suspect the more rules the KC brings in the more will be bred and sold unregistered or mickey mouse registered and sold to gullible public. Which is why I suspect their restrictions already in place have been brought in one by one.  first the upper age of bitches and number of litters, then the lower age, and now the reduction on litters number coming in next year along with the C section rules.

As you have said we have low levels of inherited diseases which the conscientious breeders have managed to keep to an absolute  minimum with selective breeding and health testing.  Back yard breeders and commercial breeders do not do this.

How do we know, well our breed rescue primarily has these dogs to deal with as good breeders re-home their own breeding.

"As you have said we have low levels of inherited diseases which the conscientious breeders have managed to keep to an absolute  minimum with selective breeding and health testing.  Back yard breeders and commercial breeders do not do this.

How do we know, well our breed rescue primarily has these dogs to deal with as good breeders re-home their own breeding."

It is exactly the same in our breed (Siberian Huskies) - our organisation has taken in and rehomed over 400 unwanted Siberian Huskies over the past four years. Of these less than 1% were bred by ethical breeders who health test etc. The three dogs in question were all collected and rehomed by the breeders who took instant responsibility for the dogs once they knew they were in our possession. We have been in the breed almost 20 years and have rarely seen dogs with inherited health problems amongst the show/working and pet circles we mix in. Over the past four years however, amongst the dogs we have taken in to welfare, we have seen dozens of cases of eye problems, hip dysplasia, epilepsy etc etc amongst the dogs commercially bred from untested parents.
This is the real problem facing pedigree dogs in the UK.

Ditto to MickB and Barbara re breed rescue.

> A breed conservation plan is,  I believe, the responsibility of those breed enthusiastis who consider themselves the guardians of the breed -

Yes the breed is not a UK one (but has been here since 1870's) and in Scandinavia there are healthy numbers, but even their numbers are reducing as due to changes to a more urbanised life and culture means that traditional breeds (hunting and herding dogs) are being superseded by other more fashionable ones.

For example when I made my very expensive trip to Finland in 2006 as part of the responsibility I feel to keep our UK gene pool open, (and have done again last month to the USA for the same reason) the breed was the third highest in Registrations, then by 2008 they were only 5th and last year just hanging in the top 10.

Others have imported and travelled abroad for fresh blood at great personal expense, but it isn't enough unless we can encourage enough new people to get involved seriously in the breeds welfare and development.

With Scandinavia with the breeds main focus as a hunting dog we have a problem as they have not adopted the prcd-PRA Gene test. 

They don't see the issue as of great importance as the onset is very late and in fact some of the dogs are dead before sight is completely lost.  Their main focus is to have a dog that can hunt up to 10 years of age, which they can.  They set great store by Hip screening though.

This is one reason why I went to USA to mate my bitch to a Norwegian sired dog whose owner was willing to test rather than to the country of origin.  Many Scandinavians also do not take breeders that don't/can't hunt with the dogs seriously.

MIck B sadly the commercial breeders of huskies get the breed and other breeds mistaken for them a bad reputation.

I have lived her all the nearly 20 years that I have had the dogs, with them being excellent ambassadors for the breed and dogs in general.

Yet all this can be undone by one incident.

Recently a couple of huskies escaped their garden a few streets up and got into someones garden and tore the pet rabbits to pieces as children watched.

I have been asked more than once if it were my girls, and that's by people I know!!!!

The term 'outcrossing'  as I understand it would not mean to breed to another retriever, it means to breed within the Flatcoat population, and this would mean using a stud whose pedigree contained different lines to the bitch but still of the same breed, in order to bring in 'fresh blood' to minimise doubling up on any deleterious genetic condition, not only known hereditary health problems but  to improve on any constructional (i.e. if one wants to improve feet then you would use a stud with that quality and who comes from a line known for producing good feet), functional faults that the bitch may have (if a bitch had a tendency to whine (a serious fault in a gundog) then you would again use a stud that comes from a line of quiet producers and you would look at his progeny to ensure that he was passing this on in his offspring).

As a direct result of your biassed programme, we now have the puppy farmers, backyard breeders and naive/greedy "pet" breeders proudly producing litter after litter of poor quality, pups from un-health-tested parents all quoting PDE and saying our dogs aren't KC registered so they must be healthier than those nasty show dogs.

Is that fact?

I seem to recall there were many discussions on CD pre 2004 about the increasing number of puppy farmers particularly in Wales, and BYB and all the unethical breeders that you refer to.  Irresponsible breeding had been going on for years before PDE and there were calls then to get legislative powers to stop the 'puppy farms'.  Do you have statistics to show the 'direct' link that you are referring to?

yes puppy farming has been going on for years but we have never seen so many ridiculous designer crosses who claim better health than purebreds

"Irresponsible breeding had been going on for years before PDE and there were calls then to get legislative powers to stop the 'puppy farms'.  Do you have statistics to show the 'direct' link that you are referring to?"

Of course it has been going on for years, but PDE for the first time gave these scum an air if respectability. No research has been done on this but anyone involved in breed rescue will tell you that it accords with their direct experience. Just look at the puppy sales websites for further evidence.

A visit to epupz and the like is enough evidence of this, some of rediculous statements in the adds is enough to tell you the damage that's been done, I've just looked at the bulldogs and found 1 ad on front page stating that as it was not registered on uk reg it would be healthier and not inbred like most in uk.

Well said Suzieque - long term is the future, no matter how painful it may be for us as individuals in the short term, we have to think about the future for our breeds.

Not quite the same but related - my oldest dobe was diagnosed with DCM in July.  I've mentioned already that it's now causing nearly 60% of all deaths in dobes through lack of knowledge/testing.

Until this month, there has been a study on the disease running for several years, looking at treatment for the preclinical stage.  The very nature of the study meant that owners had to put the potential benefits of future dobes before their own dogs, or not enter their dogs into the study (included dogs get either pimobendan or a placebo, double-blind trial).

Because I see a need for more information on treating the disease, and because the vets involved can gather more information about the causes of it, lines which are prone etc (I submitted Soli's pedigree for that purpose), I decided with no hesitation whatsoever to enter her into it.

Yes, it hurts to think there's a 50% chance she's on nothing more useful than a placebo - it hurts a great deal.  But I have to consider other dobes - the knowledge gained from this trial may well benefit my own dogs in the future, and many others besides.

If I were in a situation where I had to wait many years to buy another purebred dobe, because breeders were outcrossing to combat DCM, I would do it.  But in the meantime, what's to stop people going to a rescue and helping the older dogs that are already here and needing a home?

Just because outcrossing could delay the availability of healthy purebred pups doesn't mean one can never own ones breed - there will always be rescues.  So if you really wanted to be selfish, you still could - if I was in that situation, I would have nought but rescued adult dobes until such time as pups were being bred that I felt, ni my conscience, I could buy and support the breeders of.

And actually that's the situation I'm in now - I cannot find a single breeder that I would feel comfortable supporting, so I will only have adult rescues.

That's the sort of approach could change the face of everything - never mind breeders arguing amongst themselves over what tests could be done, should be done, aren't essential etc - if the public were to only buy from those who did every available and relevant test for their breed (or crossbreed), and only bred from suitable stock (such as the LUA dallies) everything would change for the better.

Of course it has been going on for years, but PDE for the first time gave these scum an air if respectability.

MickB 

I don't think many lay people think puppy farmers and, to some extent BYBs, are 'respectable'.    And of course, the bad press that highlights the plight of dogs bred in these conditions  (PFs) over the years hasn't helped their cause in general. 

I honestly believe that most people are far more discerning than be taken in by any cloak of deception where PFs and the like are concerned.
 

And well said Nikita and well done for having the courage of your convictions in the interest of the breed you love.

But in the meantime, what's to stop people going to a rescue and helping the older dogs that are already here and needing a home?

For me quite a few reasons, one of them being as I have a disabled daughter the breed I have go perfect with her they are rarely boistrous, very patient even seeming to know that my daughter needs that extra bit of time and attention. Another reason I like to know that my dog doesn't come with any underlieing aggression problems, which is most important with young children and ok so I can't guarantee my own dogs may never bite I know I have done my utmost to prevent it and would have only myself to blame.

For me quite a few reasons, one of them being as I have a disabled daughter the breed I have go perfect with her they are rarely boistrous, very patient even seeming to know that my daughter needs that extra bit of time and attention. Another reason I like to know that my dog doesn't come with any underlieing aggression problems

I understand your reasons and we may be going a bit off topic here but there are thousands of dogs in rescue who would fit the bill.  There are also some very good staff in rescue centres and breed rescue who are exceptionally well informed on the dogs in their care and would help you choose the right one.

It may not be the answer for everyone but could see there could be merit in the suggestion.

I need no help choosing the right one I already have, it is a small and like brainless unexploited breed (bar the odd one or two) with mostly good health with a breed club working hard to keep it that way, the odd time they are found in rescue they are took in by one of our rescue coordinators.
Also I have had many from rescues over the years so feel I've done my bit for the time being.

I have just counted 48 chi ads that they have bred their 2 pets together (not all to the same breed either) and probably another 20 plus rehoming due to lack of time, it is this that does untold damage to a breed and swells rescues and needs sorting out.

Quote Susieque: "I honestly believe that most people are far more discerning than be taken in by any cloak of deception where PFs and the like are concerned."

I wish I had your faith in people! I think most people haven't actually bothered to do any research about what they should be looking for when buying a puppy so they are easily taken in by the puppy farmers :(

Agree, just look at all the stories on puppylovecampaign and the amount of people who didn't realise it was a puppy farmer till pup was desperately ill or suffering with bad joints, it's terrifying how many careless people there is.

I think most people haven't actually bothered to do any research about what they should be looking for when buying a puppy so they are easily taken in by the puppy farmers

I am sure there are people who fall in this category but equally there are many people who take these dogs simply because they do know how and why they're there.  They take them to get the dogs out of the situation they are in and others just give a wide berth.

The more the conditions and practices of PFs are highlighted the more it raises public awareness.  But I really don't want to go off topic.

dont you find though that many people who buy pedigree dogs still dont know how to look after them properly whether from a good breeder or not?
for example, i know a woman with 2 border teriers now 6 and 2 years old and has never once had them clipped let alone hand stripped, its sad to see their scraggy coats hanging in a parting of excess hair that needs plucking! or how about a beautiful pyrenean mountain dog, charging and bounding up to mine, one of which is terrified of big dogs, with the owner walking away and not even looking?
not to mention those that dont pick up poo!
it is an ignorant world out there

It's a world that is lacking in responsibility, it's always someone elses problem.
When I bought my first js it took me months to work on my hubby and research the breed after I had her a few weeks I took her up the school and a acquaintance saw her and decided she wanted one, 2 days later she had gone to Wales bought a german spitz, she soon discovered it didn't fit in with her life and low and behold he became someone elses problem.
There needs to be more emphasis on everyone taking their own responsibilty be that the breeder of low quality pets, the careless buyer who gets rid after a few weeks and the cuteness wears off and all the shades of grey between. Dogs in general would be in a much better place then.

> it is still a much valued farm dog so will still be bred ramdomly with the collie from the next farm or a friends dog. So the gene pool remains wide.

If a dog is 'randomly' bred there is no health testing etc so it is 'random' on whether healthy offspring is produced - unless, of course, survival of the fittest is used, ie no veterinary intervention of illnesses, longevity reduced etc.  Also, if friends and neighbours dogs are used, does this not reduce the gene pool, thereby in-breeding?

I suppose it depends how you define a good breeder. 

I would give my prospective owners a grooming lesson on one of my adult bitches when they came to visit and made sure that they mastered getting through the double coat.  I would then give the correct brush for the coat in the puppy's going home bag.

I would expect the breeder of the 2 year old Border to have asked to see the older dog before they agreed to let the owner have the second dog.  I wouldn't let a puppy go to owners who weren't coping with the coat of a 4 year old. :(

In the grooming parlour, the vast majority of puppies that came in were bought from an advert in the local paper and met in a layby!  I remember one lovely old man who had lost his old Yorkie and when he rang to tell me said never again.  Those clients who told me that they were looking for a puppy, then of course I would do my best to help them look for a well bred one.  You can imagine my surprise when he knocked on my door, unannounced, and proudly presented to Cavaliers, one under each arm.  He was so thrilled that the man he'd rung said that he could have the second one for £100 AND delivered them to his door.  How nice was that????? :(
Of course they were from a puppy farm and bore little resemblance to the breed standard, and from 4 feet away I told him to come no closer because I could see that they were covered with mange and I could smell their rank ears from that distance!  He'd spent £600 in the first 6 weeks sorting out their medical problems.
But Vets have no interest in where they had come from and who had bred them because they made good earners as they had continual health problems!  And of course they would have been recorded as Cavaliers and added to the bad Cavalier data accordingly.  :(

Brainless, could you clarify... It isn't a commercially popular breed so am surprised to hear that Elkhounds are being produced this way. Presumably, given the low reg figures, they're not being KC-reg'd?
This is a relevant copy of my post to another forum:
Back to the old bone of contention - puppy farms - Elkhounds are now available there and prospective owners don't have to go through scrutiny to get one, as they would with a breeder, so ..
Also, I still believe that Elkhounds are mis-classified; people looking for a breed with their characteristics probably wouldn't look at hound group dogs - I certainly didn't. I'm just glad, for all the sins involved, that I found Heidi through a commercial outlet; I have never looked at hounds as a group [though I love Wolf- and Deerhounds.
Fortunately [touch wood] my 'born on the wrong side of the blanket' Elkhound has been, and hopefully always will be, extremely healthy.  From her DLR 'pedigree'[if it is to be believed], she is not far from 'the right side of the blanket' as her parents and grand-parents are >
known in the breed.

Boody your comment regarding the coverage of a hyped up tv programmes' viewers compared to those that will read this is smack on and this is the issue I have with JH she is not correcting the DAMAGE done.  Sorry I don't know how to do quotes on here.

A visit to epupz and the like is enough evidence of this, some of rediculous statements in the adds is enough to tell you the damage that's been done, I've just looked at the bulldogs and found 1 ad on front page stating that as it was not registered on uk reg it would be healthier and not inbred like most in uk.

OK, I had a look at the Epupz list of bulldogs for sale. In fact, the first two pages are ALL KC registered, most boasting champ lines and the top ad is an Accredited Breeder.

But the ad I think you're referring to is this one:

This is the only non-KC reg'd bulldog on the first two pages at Epupz and if you take a look at the picture, it's obvious why  - it isn't an English bulldog; it is an alternative American bulldog. The ad does, indeed, state: "NOT inbred like most in the UK". But it doesn't make any specific comparison with KC-reg'd dogs.  And, actually, I think the ad sounds pretty genuine. (Although of course you would want to see good evidence of this before committing).

I'm certainly all for those breeding a more moderate bulldog.

Jemima

The posts on epupz change hourly as they are updated, go check out the Chi's they are the same and i'm pretty sure if you sift your way through many of the different puppy selling webbys there is plenty, i have seen many.
Where do you think he got the tag line from healthier than in the uk???

I think the ad sounds pretty genuine
I thought the Labradoodle puppy farmers website looked genuine till i delved deeper, abit like your documentry really all gloss no substance.

Not sure you should be linknig adverts either.

I think the ad sounds pretty genuine
I thought the Labradoodle puppy farmers website looked genuine till i delved deeper, abit like your documentry really all gloss no substance
Absolutely and quotes the program in the advertising !

I thought the Labradoodle puppy farmers website looked genuine till i delved deeper, abit like your documentry really all gloss no substance.


You are free to think as you wish, Boody. I called it as I saw it after three years' solid research and you are free to do the same.

Fortunately, the author of the report that the KC itself commissioned confirmed all the problems we raised - as has every other independent report into the issue. Hence the founding of the Independent Dog Advisory Council.

Jemima

thereby in-breeding

No, farmers understand the dangers of inbreeding; they have more sence.
Of course you have to be careful, where you go, make sure it's clean etc.

I know there will replies now trying to say I am wrong.
It is my prefered way, I know the questions to ask and what to look for.

Survival of the fittest is a good point. 

Truly adorable little bundles of joy, beautiful small unusally marked puppies with very loving playful cuddly characters. Mum is a small kc reg fawn pug and Dad a black kc reg toy poodle, and both are my childrens pets. These puppies have been lovingly reared in our family home and will be a real asset to any family As with poodle crosses they should be low moulting intelligent and loyal with all the great character of a Pug and the health beniefits of being a cross

Oh look yet another sensible advert, looking at poodle pupppy list there was hardly any actuall poodles, poor poodles will be getting a inferiorty complex.
This is what is destroying a fair amount of the breeds willy nilly for the sake of it money making.